(Colin Rosenstiel) writes:

In article ,
(Steve Dulieu) wrote:

"Roland Perry" wrote in message
y.com...
In message , at
14:25:46 on Mon, 11 Jul 2005, Joel Rowbottom
remarked:
I'm not entirely sure you *can* place things "under a seat" in a Tube
carriage

Correct.

- excepting the fold-down seats on the Picc of course.

Which fold-up the moment you stop sitting on them...

There are *no* fold down seats of any sort in the cars of Piccadilly
Line 73ts...

or on C Stock.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

All of this speculation has been interesting. And we'll see what
comes out in the end.

My random thoughts:

You probably could have left some amount of bomb laying around without
too much suspicion generated if you made it look like a used food
container. You can't now, of course.

I wonder if the bus bomber was someone who didn't get on the assigned
train, and then either took the best target of opportunity or had an
unfortunate accident after? Or took an hour to get up the nerve to
set off their bomb?

The hotel I usually stay at is on Cartwright Gardens, and is within
the primary debris search area. I walk along that section of Woburn
fairly regularly. I was once (6-8 years ago?) prevented from getting
to that hotel for a few hours, since they'd found a suspicious package
in the Garden and blew it up in place. Some others at the hotel had
left baggage, airline tickets and passports in the hotel, and so
missed their afternoon flights out.

My original travel plans for next month called for taking the
Picadilly line from Heathrow to Kings Cross to catch a train north.
I suspect I'll either take the Heathrow Express and catch the 205 at
Paddington, or if the Circle line is back open, I could change at
Gloucester Road to that line from the Picadilly.

73, doug

In message m, Roland
Perry writes

- excepting the fold-down seats on the Picc of course.

Which fold-up the moment you stop sitting on them...

Those will be the folding seats that the Piccadilly doesn't have then??
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

In article .com,
writes
WRT
to the Circle Line trains, it appears that the Inner Platform at KXSP
allows for placement near a door in both directions that is not used
again for several stops.

Edgware Road (probably though not certainly) for an Inner Rail
(westbound in this area) train and Aldgate for an Outer Rail one.

That means that the bomb would be on the
righthand side (facing front) of the eastbound train

Yes.

and the lefthand
side (facing front) of the westbound train.

No, the right hand side.

How likely is it for two Circle Line trains to be within a minute of
each other at KXSP between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning?

Reasonable. Trains are about 2 minutes apart in each direction, and one
in 4 is a Circle. So about 1 in 4 for any given arrival time.

But irrelevant ... *any* train heading east from KXSP will go to just
before Aldgate (apart from the one or two Moorgate reversers) and half
the westbound trains go to Edgware Road (the others turn right at Baker
Street). You're making the mistake of assuming there's something magical
about the Circle.

If you are at the top of the escalator and a Piccadilly train is
arriving at the station, would you know it before you got to the bottom
of the escalator?

Almost certainly not.

In other words, if you were at the top of the
escalator and a train was arriving or pulling in to the station could
you be certain to get to the train before it left?

Almost certainly not.

If you are familiar with the station, how far in advance of a train's
appearance do you know one is arriving? Is there a signal, is there a
breeze, or do you just hear it coming?

There's an indicator board, a breeze, and you can sometimes hear it. But
I'm not sure what your point is here.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

In article m, Roland
Perry writes
How likely is it for two Circle Line trains to be within a minute of
each other at KXSP between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning?

If the former, it's extremely unlikely. If the latter, it's very
likely. (Noting that perhaps one in six trains on the tracks are likely
to be Circle rather than Metropolitan or H&C).

More like one in four. The trains are supposed to be 2 minutes apart,
and there are 7 Circles with a circulation time of 50 minutes. So 7
trains in 25 are Circles.

In 30 minutes there are 15 arrivals on each line. Probably 4 on (say)
the Inner Rail are Circles. So the probability of there also being a
Circle on the Outer Rail at the same time as a given one of these is
4/15, and the probability of one of the four getting a coincidence is
roughly 1 - (1 - 4/15)^4, or about 0.7. [Yes, that simplifies some
issues.]

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Clive D. W. Feather wrote:
In article m, Roland
Perry writes
How likely is it for two Circle Line trains to be within a minute of
each other at KXSP between 8:30 and 9:00 in the morning?

If the former, it's extremely unlikely. If the latter, it's very
likely. (Noting that perhaps one in six trains on the tracks are likely
to be Circle rather than Metropolitan or H&C).

More like one in four. The trains are supposed to be 2 minutes apart,
and there are 7 Circles with a circulation time of 50 minutes. So 7
trains in 25 are Circles.

In 30 minutes there are 15 arrivals on each line. Probably 4 on (say)
the Inner Rail are Circles. So the probability of there also being a
Circle on the Outer Rail at the same time as a given one of these is
4/15, and the probability of one of the four getting a coincidence is
roughly 1 - (1 - 4/15)^4, or about 0.7. [Yes, that simplifies some
issues.]


This is why I love USENET and hate blogs

Here's what I'm still confused by... assume they really had separate
bombers for each bomb.... seems like a long time before boarding the
Piccadilly Line.

I'm guessing they synchronized the timers BEFORE they got on the
trains. Probably around 8:31 for 20 minutes or 8:36 for 15 minutes.
That would have been while they were all standing together on the KXSP
platform. That explains the Circle Line bombs.

The 311 train on Piccadilly.... you need 20 minutes to get that train?
Hell ... do you need 15 minutes to get to the 311 if you were on the
Circle Line platform when the 204 and 216 arrived?

I can't believe he got there in 5 minutes and then waited for a couple
of trains to pass so he could get one that would blow up about 45
seconds outside of the station.

In message .com,
writes

The 311 train on Piccadilly.... you need 20 minutes to get that train?
Hell ... do you need 15 minutes to get to the 311 if you were on the
Circle Line platform when the 204 and 216 arrived?

I can't believe he got there in 5 minutes and then waited for a couple
of trains to pass so he could get one that would blow up about 45
seconds outside of the station.

As discussed in this newsgroup last week, the service had been suspended
on the Piccadilly line immediately prior to the bomb, due to a fire
alert incident at Caledonian Road. It is quite likely that 311 was the
first train through after a long gap in service.

--
Paul Terry

In message .com, at
22:55:08 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked:
That would have been while they were all standing together on the KXSP
platform.

fog of war alert

Which Kings Cross St Pancras Platform?

I've not read the news yet this morning, but last night the police were
suggesting they took the train from Luton, which means they would have
arrived at KX *Thameslink* Station [yet another different station, not
KX, Not StP, not the "Circle" shallow station, not the deep tube
Piccadilly station].
--
Roland Perry

In message , at 23:55:25 on Tue, 12
Jul 2005, Steve Fitzgerald ] remarked:
- excepting the fold-down seats on the Picc of course.

Which fold-up the moment you stop sitting on them...

Those will be the folding seats that the Piccadilly doesn't have then??

Well, there you go. At least it's less misleading to mis-remember the
seats than to suggest they have luggage bins! It must be the Northern
that has the folding seats...
--
Roland Perry

Paul Terry wrote:
In message .com,
writes

The 311 train on Piccadilly.... you need 20 minutes to get that train?
Hell ... do you need 15 minutes to get to the 311 if you were on the
Circle Line platform when the 204 and 216 arrived?

I can't believe he got there in 5 minutes and then waited for a couple
of trains to pass so he could get one that would blow up about 45
seconds outside of the station.

As discussed in this newsgroup last week, the service had been suspended
on the Piccadilly line immediately prior to the bomb, due to a fire
alert incident at Caledonian Road. It is quite likely that 311 was the
first train through after a long gap in service.


Excellent point. If that is the case then I suppose the intended
detonation point was somewhere further south like Piccadilly Circus or
Green Park. Piccadilly Circus is about 8 minutes out and you would be
leaving the station if you caught the 8:41 or entering the station if
you caught the 8:43 from KXSP.

Piccadilly Circus would be better for international recognition, but I
wonder what the track configuration is there v. Green Park. I mention
this because the other two blastswere both near junctions about 10
minutes out from KXSP.

--
Paul Terry

I am scrubbing all the speculation about how they could have
synchronized departures etc. and wondering if the targets were really
junctions.

The Circle Line trains look like they blew up right near junctions
(Aldgate Junction and Praed Street Junction). Given the unexpected
delay on the Piccadilly Line, it now seems reasonable that the perp
caught the first train available even though he had ample time to get
to the platform.

Had things been running smoothly, I'm guessing he was intending to
detonate around Piccadilly Circus (a junction and an internationally
renowned location) or Green Park (another junction). Which one was the
target depends on which train you caught (the 8:41 or the 8:43)
assuming you want a synchronized blast with trains that are near
Aldgate Junction and Praed Street Junction.