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#31
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asdf wrote:
On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 22:19:53 GMT, "Richard J." wrote: Ed Lake wrote: I'm only assuming that the culprit is familiar with the way things happen at King's Cross. I'm assuming that he's gotten off the eastbound Circle line at the same time every weekday for years and knows that a westbound train arrives at the other side of the platform moments later. Moments later? Meaning just a few seconds? No, it will in practice be anything from 0 to 2 minutes, or longer if the service is disrupted, which is not uncommon. He also knows that as he's going up the elevator, a southbound Picadilly Line train arrives at an upper level. He's not going by any specific schedule. He's going by his EXPERIENCE with what happens at King's Cross. Clearly *you* don't have any relevant experience of how LU operates in practice. Apart from the fact that you don't go *up* in a *lift* (elevator) to the Piccadilly at King's Cross, the idea that a Piccadilly train arrives at precisely the same time every day ("as he's going up the elevator") is an absurd assumption. This is the same guy who has repeatedly suggested that the bombs were placed under seats. I wouldn't be surprised if he'd never been on an Underground train in his life. In any case it's obvious he has no idea what he's talking about. I've ridden the London Underground many times, but the last time was over 15 years ago. If you can't put bombs under seats, then where was it? It had to be placed somewhere. It was NOT held by a suicide bomber. Someone said there is a parcel bin near the door. If the seats fold up when not in use, that doesn't prevent someone from putting a bomb on the floor beneath it. It just means the bomb will be visible (perhaps looking like a rolled up newspaper, a box or a paper bag) when the seat is up, and the seat wouldn't be up for very long on a crowded train. Ed |
#33
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Peter Vos wrote:
I completely agree with you, it was planned by lines not specific trains. The configuration of the KX stop suggests that he may have left the bombs by the doors that opened on the KX platform because it is the doors on the OPPOSITE side that open for other stations. That makes it even more likely a one man job. Basically you plant the two bombs on the Circle Line with anywhere from 6 to 10 minutes left over to get to the Piccadilly Line platform. What I'm wondering is how commonly do trains going in opposite directions show up at about the same time on the Circle Line platform at KX? The reason I ask is I could see this sort of scenario: Get to Circle Line around 8:00 and wait until you have two trains going in opposite direction arriving at the platform close in time. For example, when one is in the station while another is approaching. That is the pair you pick. The reason being it will give you the most time (8 to 10 minutes) to get to the Piccadilly Line. There you simply hit whichever train shows up first. You don't hang around long enough to hit trains going in both directions on that line because there was no way you could do that and keep the explosions more or less synchronized. This cuts out all the shuttling back and forth and makes it real easy for one man to do it. It has an added advantage: If you wait to start the sequence when you have two trains in hand, even if the Piccadilly Line is out of service you will be guaranteed a double hit. The short delay on the Russell St. bomb could reflect a longer wait than anticipated for a target train or it could have been set shorter. I'm inclined to believe the timers were all set at the same time and the last train simply took a bit longer to arrive than expected. The alternative (you set and drop, set and drop, set and drop....) would require a separate countdown timer to keep track of elapsed time and would be too confusing for most people, especially working under a tight schedule with no room for mistakes. This scenario suggests they should be looking for a male weighing 70 to 80 kg (about 150 to 180 lb) who is in good physical condition, carrying a backpack traveling from the Circle line platform between 8:35 and 8:45 who takes the escalator to Piccadilly then quickly takes the escalator to the surface. Agreed! And because he didn't have time to unpack a bomb while ON the second Circle Line train or ON the Picadilly train before he had to get off again, he probably took the bomb out of the bag while moving between trains. That would make it easier to spot him on surveillance tapes. The bomb wouldn't LOOK like a bomb, of course. Ed yitzak wrote: No! what I meant to say was that on a journey that can take 30mins, it can take 45 mins; Without obvious problems (which there are many daily). When there are problems it can get to an hour. Its not an exact science, stations get packed they sometimes stop you actually getting into the station/platform. Of course Euston Sq is very close walkable - but its not uncoomon esp on the circle line to get stuck in a tunnel. Also no space under seats - only by removing cushions and no rubbish bins - the IRA saw to that. Not disputing one man could have done it, but I don't think he had preplanned trains - just the lines. |
#34
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#35
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fatherivy wrote:
Peter Vos wrote: If all that is true, then you really only need one person because you can do everything in a walk. Based on reports that each device contained about 10 lbs[*] of explosive, a lone bomber would have started off with 40 lbs (18 kg) of weight on their back. Not impossible, but I'd have thought that would be an unwieldy weight of luggage to deal with - if you're trying not to draw attention to yourself leaving bits of it behind - and you want to move swiftly on to the next target. Actually, it isn't that bad. He was only carrying 40 pounds when he got on the first Circle Line train. He left 10 pounds there and only had to carry the 30 pounds of explosive a few yards to the second Circle Line Train. Then he only had to carry 20 pounds to the Picadilly Line platform. Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to Euston (Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross. Ed |
#36
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In message , at 09:42:55 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked: I'd read that the Circle Line is in the deepest tunnel, so I assumed that the Circle Line passed UNDER the Picadilly Line at King's Cross. If that's not true, let me know. The Circle line is the *least* deep. And to all intents and purposes it's a separate station, especially during the current building works in the booking hall. The bomb on the Picadilly Line exploded closest to King's Cross, which probably means it was the last bomb placed on the trains. More than "probably". Absolutely certainly - *if* they were all put on board at KX just prior to those three trains making their final journey through the station. -- Roland Perry |
#37
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In message , at 09:49:01 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked: I've ridden the London Underground many times, but the last time was over 15 years ago. If you can't put bombs under seats, then where was it? It had to be placed somewhere. On the floor, probably in the vestibule by the doors. It was NOT held by a suicide bomber. Someone said there is a parcel bin near the door. Not a bin. But some trains have a larger than normal vestibule (imagine some of the seats being missing) so people can transport large bags. If the seats fold up when not in use, The folding seats are so that the "extra big luggage vestibule" areas can be used for seating if there are no bags present, and if the train is sufficiently uncrowded that there aren't three or four people standing in the space the seated passenger would require. that doesn't prevent someone from putting a bomb on the floor beneath it. They spring back up violently, the moment you stop sitting on them. It just means the bomb will be visible (perhaps looking like a rolled up newspaper, a box or a paper bag) when the seat is up, and the seat wouldn't be up for very long on a crowded train. It would, because people would use the space to "*stand* in, on a crowded train. -- Roland Perry |
#38
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In message , at 10:05:24 on Tue, 12 Jul
2005, Ed Lake remarked: Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to Euston (Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross. The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs). If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45 minutes. -- Roland Perry |
#39
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![]() Roland Perry wrote: In message , at 10:05:24 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, Ed Lake remarked: Then he only had to carry 10 pounds on this walk or ride to Euston (Square?) Station to place the bag with the final bomb on the upper deck of the bus heading back to King's Cross. The bus was headed the other way, and there's a 45 minute gap. Why would he want to go back to Euston (Sq) having left the last bomb on the Piccadilly, anyway? That means he was retracing his steps to the scene of the earlier crime (the planting of the two Circle Line bombs). If he wanted to plant a bomb on a bus there are plenty of them passing right outside Kings Cross. But that still doesn't explain the 45 minutes. -- Roland Perry The theory I heard was he picked that bus because it would arrive at KXSP and go off while people were exiting the station. However, the bus was detoured so it went off on a side street. |
#40
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![]() Roland Perry wrote: In message .com, at 07:31:16 on Tue, 12 Jul 2005, remarked: Supposedly it is every 2 to 4 minutes at that time of day. On the Circle, I doubt it. Or did the question actually refer to any kind of train on the line? There is a schedule, but the important point is the gap between trains. Assuming 30 seconds in the station you might actually have a 1 in 4 chance of that happening. I'm not suggesting the trains have to both be stopped at the same time, merely one in the station when the other is approaching. When asking questions about things like this it's important to be precise! If they were both stopped you might not have time to plant bomb one, cross the platform and plant bomb two before the doors closed. So perhaps the wrong question was asked? If the question was "how long before any train leaves in the opposite direction" then 2-3 minutes would be a sensible answer. The first two bombs were in the middle of the trains (3rd and 2nd car) so I doubt anyone was hanging out at the end of the platform. Which cars exactly? If it was (say) 3rd and 5th [or 2nd and 6th], then that would suggest the same position on the platform. according to BBC eastbound was 2nd car and westbound was also 2nd car, although the police said floor of 3rd car. Is it something relatively common? If it is then waiting for such an occurance to start the process would minimize the time planting the first two bombs and gives you as much as 10 minutes before you have to be at the Picadilly Line. I would expect it to be pretty random. You might find the two trains there, or you might easily have to wait 150% of the published interval. I agree, that would be why I suggest showing up around 8:30 or so and waiting. If you have trains every 4 minutes and a 1 in 5 chance of this happening, I think we have pretty much established that the original question was wrong. you will certainly catch a break before 9:00 And will have blown yourself up by 8.51 ? (If all the bombs had fuses preset to that time). I thought we were talking statistically here. If you have 5 to 7 trains passing in a given direction over the course of half an hour and a 1 in 5 chance that you will have trains in opposite directions converging on the platform, then at SOME POINT during the half hour you are virtually guaranteed of this happening at least once. Given the time of detonation and the relative distances from KXSP, it looks like that convergence would have to occur around 8:38 to 8:40 -- Roland Perry |
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