Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

It seems like the picc is going to be out of action for a long time
around
the kings X area unfortunately. Ok , but surely that doesn't mean a
huge
stretch has to be closed all the way from Hyde Park to Arnos Grove?
Surely it could at least run south as far as wood green and reverse in
the
siding there? That would at least cut out 50% of the unpleasent
replacement
bus service B.

B2003

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

Trains can only reverse north to south via W.G Sdgs. Once trains are in
the sdg they can only be routed on to the Southbound platform. Also a
train in the southbound platform can only be routed back in the sdgs

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

If it is not in passenger service I hasten to add!!

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

Trains can only reverse north to south via W.G Sdgs. Once trains are in
the sdg they can only be routed on to the Southbound platform. Also a
train in the southbound platform can only be routed back in the sdgs

Is this an operational restriction or a physical one? If its the former
surely some special operational plan could be put into force?

B2003

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

"Boltar" wrote in message
ups.com...
Is this an operational restriction or a physical one? If its the former
surely some special operational plan could be put into force?

It's both. The signalling was not designed to allow it to happen, so you
could only do it by working (and securing) the points manually.

The diagram below shows the area [1]. To reverse from south-to-north the
following would have to happen:-
1. Train runs in to southbound platform (no problem)
2. PG4 clear for shunt in to siding (no problem)
3. 6 points reversed/secured and train authorized out of siding (past PG10
at danger)
(problem - no protection from a train approaching from the south - PG1
is too close to the platform to do this, all other signals before that are
automatic).
4. 6 points normalized/unsecured and PG2 cleared

6
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N/B to Cockfosters
|o PG1 ############## |oo PG2/3 \ PG10 o|
--------------------------------------
############## |oPG4 /
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
S/B from Cockfosters
PG11o| 7 PG12co| PG12bo|
PG12ao|

The problems basically are securing the points and authorizing the train out
of the siding. It could well require the power to be taken off (further
complicated as you might have to involve the sections for both directions
because the siding is in the middle, plus the gaps with the next section to
the north happen to be at 6 points), and would take a lot of time.

There is a fixed red lamp at the southern end of the northbound platform,
however it probably doesn't have a trainstop, so some kind of additional
protection would be necessary. I suppose the problem of northbound trains
could be dealt with by holding the Turnpike Lane stating signal at danger
and renumbering it as an "X" signal, but then you lose the ability to
transfer trains from Northfields to Cockfosters via the northbound line (has
this been happening, or vice versa?) or to run (engineers?) trains out of
the bomb site.



[1] Layout is correct, but doing it from memory so certain numbers might be
wrong. Also, referring to north and south for convenience - I'm sure someone
would have be along to remind everyone that the Picc is considered to run
from east to west!

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

David Splett wrote:
"Boltar" wrote in message
ups.com...
Is this an operational restriction or a physical one? If its the
former surely some special operational plan could be put into force?

It's both. The signalling was not designed to allow it to happen, so
you could only do it by working (and securing) the points manually.


So PG IMR doesn't support remote securing then? If it did, one could
stretch the rules and use it to lock the northbound-to-siding crossover.

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

Boltar wrote:

It seems like the picc is going to be out of action for a long time
around
the kings X area unfortunately. Ok , but surely that doesn't mean a
huge
stretch has to be closed all the way from Hyde Park to Arnos Grove?
Surely it could at least run south as far as wood green and reverse in
the
siding there? That would at least cut out 50% of the unpleasent
replacement
bus service B.

A few changes to WAGN services would help - Ally Pally (a 10 minute walk
or a couple of minutes on the bus fom Wood Green) to Finsbury Park and
Kings x/Moorgate is every 10 minutes in the mornings. But the trains are
becoming increasingly packed; stopping a few fast trains there and
selected affected stations on route especially at non-peak times
(especially weekends) would help.... surely it can't be that difficult
to do?

It does seem to me that the other transport links from town to that area
are operating with no concessions to the current closures. The buses
(29, N29) which provide links to town form that area are doing their
best but it's not enough.

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In article ,
(Stuart) wrote:

Boltar wrote:

A few changes to WAGN services would help - Ally Pally (a 10 minute
walk or a couple of minutes on the bus fom Wood Green) to Finsbury Park
and Kings x/Moorgate is every 10 minutes in the mornings. But the
trains are becoming increasingly packed; stopping a few fast trains
there and selected affected stations on route especially at non-peak
times (especially weekends) would help.... surely it can't be that
difficult to do?

It does seem to me that the other transport links from town to that
area are operating with no concessions to the current closures. The
buses (29, N29) which provide links to town form that area are doing
their best but it's not enough.

Are the platforms at Ally Pally long enough for more than 2 x 313 units
anyway?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

The problems basically are securing the points and authorizing the train out
of the siding. It could well require the power to be taken off (further
complicated as you might have to involve the sections for both directions
because the siding is in the middle, plus the gaps with the next section to
the north happen to be at 6 points), and would take a lot of time.

Does sound a bit of a mare. Though I'm surprised the siding isn't set
up to
allow this as this isn't the first time the line has been closed from
Hyde park
to arnos grove and I'm sure it won't be the last so it would certainly
add a bit
of extra flexibility to the service not to mention making commuters
lives a bit
easier.

B2003

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In message , David Splett
writes
you lose the ability to transfer trains from Northfields to Cockfosters
via the northbound line (has this been happening, or vice versa?) or to
run (engineers?) trains out of the bomb site.

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock parked
up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two and I
suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my train
there on the day.

[1] Layout is correct, but doing it from memory so certain numbers
might be wrong. Also, referring to north and south for convenience -
I'm sure someone would have be along to remind everyone that the Picc
is considered to run from east to west!

I wouldn't dream of it ;-)
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In message . com,
Boltar writes

Does sound a bit of a mare. Though I'm surprised the siding isn't set
up to
allow this as this isn't the first time the line has been closed from
Hyde park
to arnos grove and I'm sure it won't be the last so it would certainly
add a bit
of extra flexibility to the service not to mention making commuters
lives a bit
easier.

More useful might be reinstating the crossovers at York Road (disused)
and Covent Garden.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

More useful might be reinstating the crossovers at York Road (disused)
and Covent Garden.

Is there much chance of that ever happening? (I won't hold my breath)

B2003

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In article , ] (Steve
Fitzgerald) wrote:

In message , David Splett
writes
you lose the ability to transfer trains from Northfields to
Cockfosters via the northbound line (has this been happening, or vice
versa?) or to run (engineers?) trains out of the bomb site.

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock parked
up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two and I
suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my train
there on the day.

If that is the case, why no Rayner's Lane to Uxbridge service then?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock parked
up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two and I
suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my train
there on the day.

If that is the case, why no Rayner's Lane to Uxbridge service then?

This has been rehearsed here before...

Because it's being provided by the Met., and we don't have the capacity
to turn that many trains at Acton so it's a basic 10 min ACT - RLN
service in the KISS fashion. If they start adding additional clever
bits it will, as sure as eggs is eggs, fall apart in short order due to
lack of trains/drivers/paths. At the moment, the staffing of these
trains is still being done on the hoof and doesn't have the benefit of
utilising staff right to their booking off time that you get from
pre-planning the service as is normal.

We might have loads of trains sat about but all the drivers are in the
wrong places too - Arnos being the bigger depot have more drivers than
Acton, we're having to be taken to the other end of the line to provide
cover. We're also double ending the HPC reversers to get them tipped
out and reversed in 5 minutes and providing the AGR - CFS shuttles. So
there isn't a huge surplus of staff there either...
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In article , ] (Steve
Fitzgerald) wrote:

*Subject:* Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
*From:* Steve Fitzgerald ]
*Date:* Fri, 15 Jul 2005 13:48:49 +0100

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock
parked up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two
and I suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my
train there on the day.

If that is the case, why no Rayner's Lane to Uxbridge service then?

This has been rehearsed here before...

Because it's being provided by the Met., and we don't have the capacity
to turn that many trains at Acton so it's a basic 10 min ACT - RLN
service in the KISS fashion. If they start adding additional clever
bits it will, as sure as eggs is eggs, fall apart in short order due to
lack of trains/drivers/paths. At the moment, the staffing of these
trains is still being done on the hoof and doesn't have the benefit of
utilising staff right to their booking off time that you get from
pre-planning the service as is normal.

We might have loads of trains sat about but all the drivers are in the
wrong places too - Arnos being the bigger depot have more drivers than
Acton, we're having to be taken to the other end of the line to provide
cover. We're also double ending the HPC reversers to get them tipped
out and reversed in 5 minutes and providing the AGR - CFS shuttles. So
there isn't a huge surplus of staff there either...

If you say so. I thought it was also said that reversing at Uxbridge was
simpler than doing it at Rayner's Lane but there you go. I appreciate the
trip length is greater which may upset other calculations though.

As restoration of the full Piccadilly service is likely to be some months
away, presumably someone is working on the rostering as we write?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:07 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Are the platforms at Ally Pally long enough for more than 2 x 313 units
anyway?

I would have hoped so given the WAGN regularly run 6 car trains into
Moorgate from the GN Inner Suburban network. Unless I'm missing
something? - not a service I use very much these days.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Are the platforms at Ally Pally long enough for more than 2 x 313 units
anyway?

No idea what a 313 unit is, but I was talking about more trains stopping
rather than longer ones.

The platforms are quite long though, the 6 carriage trains fit in thre
with plenty of room to spare

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock parked
up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two and I
suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my train
there on the day.

So there's too many trains

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock parked
up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two and I
suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my train
there on the day.

Oops, pressed send too early

So there's too many trains in the wrong places. Are there any other
routes to transfer them from the Arnos Grove end to the section west of
Hyde Park corner?

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:09:03 GMT, Stuart
wrote:

Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock parked
up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two and I
suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my train
there on the day.

Oops, pressed send too early

So there's too many trains in the wrong places. Are there any other
routes to transfer them from the Arnos Grove end to the section west of
Hyde Park corner?

No - regrettably the Picc Line is a "trunk route" between key depot
locations like Ruislip, Acton and Lillie Bridge and other tube lines
like the Northern and Victoria. The key crossovers and junctions are at
Kings Cross and Finsbury Park.

I can't see how you get the trains rebalanced until the Picc Line is
available again to move stock through the tunnels.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:09:03 GMT, Stuart
wrote:

Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock parked
up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for two and I
suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I left my train
there on the day.

Oops, pressed send too early

So there's too many trains in the wrong places. Are there any other
routes to transfer them from the Arnos Grove end to the section west of
Hyde Park corner?

No - regrettably the Picc Line is a "trunk route" between key depot
locations like Ruislip, Acton and Lillie Bridge and other tube lines
like the Northern and Victoria. The key crossovers and junctions are at
Kings Cross and Finsbury Park.

I can't see how you get the trains rebalanced until the Picc Line is
available again to move stock through the tunnels.

What's to stop some of those at the east end being moved wrong road from
Arnos Grove to HPC?

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
No - regrettably the Picc Line is a "trunk route" between key depot
locations like Ruislip, Acton and Lillie Bridge and other tube lines
like the Northern and Victoria. The key crossovers and junctions are at
Kings Cross and Finsbury Park.
I can't see how you get the trains rebalanced until the Picc Line is
available again to move stock through the tunnels.

And presumably no engineers' trains can be transferred to the north end of
the Picc or indeed the entire Northern Line while this situation continues.

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:07 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Are the platforms at Ally Pally long enough for more than 2 x 313
units anyway?

I would have hoped so given the WAGN regularly run 6 car trains into
Moorgate from the GN Inner Suburban network. Unless I'm missing
something? - not a service I use very much these days.

My point was that the only way of providing more trains would be to stop
some of the GN Outers. They are all made up of four car units of classes
317 and 365. Obviously a four car train could stop but is there room for
eight cars? The GN Inners use class 313 three car units, so the trains are
three or six cars.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

Brimstone wrote:
"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...
On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:09:03 GMT, Stuart
wrote:

Steve Fitzgerald wrote:

Nothing has run through since Thursday. Hence we have 73 stock
parked up all over the place, South Harrow & Ealing Common for
two and I suspect Uxbridge, although I've not been there since I
left my train there on the day.

Oops, pressed send too early

So there's too many trains in the wrong places. Are there any
other routes to transfer them from the Arnos Grove end to the
section west of Hyde Park corner?

No - regrettably the Picc Line is a "trunk route" between key depot
locations like Ruislip, Acton and Lillie Bridge and other tube
lines like the Northern and Victoria. The key crossovers and
junctions are at Kings Cross and Finsbury Park.

I can't see how you get the trains rebalanced until the Picc Line
is available again to move stock through the tunnels.

What's to stop some of those at the east end being moved wrong road
from Arnos Grove to HPC?

But if stock is "parked up all over the place" in West London, the
problem would seem to be where the drivers are based, not where the
trains are.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 18:34 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 01:07 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Are the platforms at Ally Pally long enough for more than 2 x 313
units anyway?

I would have hoped so given the WAGN regularly run 6 car trains into
Moorgate from the GN Inner Suburban network. Unless I'm missing
something? - not a service I use very much these days.

My point was that the only way of providing more trains would be to stop
some of the GN Outers. They are all made up of four car units of classes
317 and 365. Obviously a four car train could stop but is there room for
eight cars? The GN Inners use class 313 three car units, so the trains are
three or six cars.

OK - I had missed that.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

If you say so. I thought it was also said that reversing at Uxbridge was
simpler than doing it at Rayner's Lane but there you go. I appreciate the
trip length is greater which may upset other calculations though.

As restoration of the full Piccadilly service is likely to be some months
away, presumably someone is working on the rostering as we write?

I believe so.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In message , Stuart
writes

So there's too many trains in the wrong places. Are there any other
routes to transfer them from the Arnos Grove end to the section west of
Hyde Park corner?

Unfortunately no.

As there are enough trains in the right places to run the services that
are being run, I doubt that's in anyone's mind at the moment.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 16:03:48 GMT, Stuart
wrote:

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Are the platforms at Ally Pally long enough for more than 2 x 313 units
anyway?

No idea what a 313 unit is,

The 3-car trains used on the WAGN inner suburban service.

but I was talking about more trains stopping
rather than longer ones.

Ah, but the extra trains you were talking about stopping are sometimes
8 cars in length (and maybe 12?), so they might not fit in a platform
if it's only designed for 6-car trains (like the surburban platforms
at Kings Cross).

The platforms are quite long though, the 6 carriage trains fit in thre
with plenty of room to spare

In which case it wouldn't be a problem.

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In article , David Splett
writes
And presumably no engineers' trains can be transferred to the north end of
the Picc or indeed the entire Northern Line while this situation continues.

Or the Victoria Line.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In article , asdf
writes
Ah, but the extra trains you were talking about stopping are sometimes
8 cars in length (and maybe 12?), so they might not fit in a platform
if it's only designed for 6-car trains (like the surburban platforms
at Kings Cross).

The Ally Pally platforms are between 167m and 170m (the same length as
Biggleswade) and so can hold 2x365 (i.e. 8 cars).

The suburban platforms at KX are between 163m and 166m and hold 2x365
quite happily.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:34:13 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

And presumably no engineers' trains can be transferred to the north end of
the Picc or indeed the entire Northern Line while this situation continues.

Or the Victoria Line.

Can't they still get to the Vic/Northern using the
Eastbound/Northbound Picc tunnel?

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

On Fri, 15 Jul 2005 23:38:56 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

The suburban platforms at KX are between 163m and 166m and hold 2x365
quite happily.

Thanks for the correction, must have been thinking of something else!

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

"Steve Fitzgerald" ] wrote in message
...
In message , Colin
Rosenstiel writes

If you say so. I thought it was also said that reversing at Uxbridge was
simpler than doing it at Rayner's Lane but there you go. I appreciate the
trip length is greater which may upset other calculations though.

As restoration of the full Piccadilly service is likely to be some months
away, presumably someone is working on the rostering as we write?

I believe so.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Steve..... Vic line DMTs were/are being 'hunted' to go to HPC and
introduce/assist with stepping back. None went, we have our own probs at the
moment...... Is it happening?

mal

Why can't the Picc terminate southbound at Wood Green?
 

In message , Malcolm Pinnell
writes

Steve..... Vic line DMTs were/are being 'hunted' to go to HPC and
introduce/assist with stepping back. None went, we have our own probs
at the moment...... Is it happening?

I went in to work today for my normal duty (1748) to find they'd all
been changed around and I wasn't booking on till 2000. Needless to say,
I was extremely unhappy sitting there for 3 hours when I had better
things to do - and I told Maxwell (formerly of your Parish, I gather!)
just what I thought about them not warning us in advance.

The HPC thing seems to be working quite well with two pairs of drivers
taking the trains from the incoming operator and reversing them east to
west in very short order and handing them back. We do seem to be able
to maintain the 5 minute Heathrow without too much trouble this way. I
quite enjoyed doing it last night too.

We're using a mix of Arnos and Acton DMTs currently, although from what
I can see he/she's just there to log the trains and who reverses them.
Drivers are sorting themselves out as to which trains we do and who goes
at which end. I'm booked to do it again tomorrow though, so I'm looking
forward to that one.

I gather 'schedules' are coming up with a properly rostered up temporary
timetable which does suggest they're expecting the worst.

And we still haven't got our chocolates :-(
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)