Is Clapham 'London'?
 

A little routeing puzzle for you. Today I got the train from Wimbledon
to Staines. I looked it up on the planner yesterday and it gave me a
route via Clapham Junction for £3.50 (with YPR). When I got to Wimbledon
I was given (by the machine) a ticket marked NOT LONDON, for the same
price, £3.50. I had doubts but decided to go via Clapham anyway, as the
price was the same and the planner didn't mind. At Clapham I found an
SWT official and asked him about the ticket, thinking that I might not
be allowed this route, but he said it was fine.

Now, because of the Richmond loop there are indeed two routes to
Staines, one clockwise and one counter-clockwise (actually three if you
count via Weybridge, but I think it's forbidden). One would have thought
that 'not London' would force one to go clockwise round the loop. So who
was right? Logic or the official? And if the official was right, what
can be the purpose of disallowing London?

Thanks in advance for any answers.

Alex.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

"Alex Watson" wrote in message
...
A little routeing puzzle for you. Today I got the train from Wimbledon
to Staines. I looked it up on the planner yesterday and it gave me a
route via Clapham Junction for £3.50 (with YPR). When I got to Wimbledon
I was given (by the machine) a ticket marked NOT LONDON, for the same
price, £3.50. I had doubts but decided to go via Clapham anyway, as the
price was the same and the planner didn't mind. At Clapham I found an
SWT official and asked him about the ticket, thinking that I might not
be allowed this route, but he said it was fine.

Now, because of the Richmond loop there are indeed two routes to
Staines, one clockwise and one counter-clockwise (actually three if you
count via Weybridge, but I think it's forbidden). One would have thought
that 'not London' would force one to go clockwise round the loop. So who
was right? Logic or the official? And if the official was right, what
can be the purpose of disallowing London?


AIUI "London" is the London terminals rather than the conurbation,
especially as your journey started within it.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

Brimstone wrote:
Now, because of the Richmond loop there are indeed two routes to
Staines, one clockwise and one counter-clockwise (actually three if you
count via Weybridge, but I think it's forbidden). One would have thought
that 'not London' would force one to go clockwise round the loop. So who
was right? Logic or the official? And if the official was right, what
can be the purpose of disallowing London?

AIUI "London" is the London terminals rather than the conurbation,
especially as your journey started within it.

That's what I'd think usually, but in this specific case I can't see any
reason to forbid London terminals, especially as Waterloo is the only
London terminal with services to Staines. If London always means
terminals, though, maybe this is just an anomaly...

Alex.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

"Alex Watson" wrote in message
...
Brimstone wrote:
Now, because of the Richmond loop there are indeed two routes to
Staines, one clockwise and one counter-clockwise (actually three if you
count via Weybridge, but I think it's forbidden). One would have thought
that 'not London' would force one to go clockwise round the loop. So who
was right? Logic or the official? And if the official was right, what
can be the purpose of disallowing London?

AIUI "London" is the London terminals rather than the conurbation,
especially as your journey started within it.

That's what I'd think usually, but in this specific case I can't see any
reason to forbid London terminals,

The reason is to stop you double backing between Waterloo
and CJ. If you want to do this the fare is higher (by the cost
of a return W-CJ for each direction of travel)

especially as Waterloo is the only
London terminal with services to Staines.

Why is this relevent? They stop at CJ and even if they didn't
you still wouldn't be able to change at Waterloo without paying
the higher fare.

If London always means terminals,

It does.

though, maybe this is just an anomaly...

What's an anomaly? Where sensible for the rest of the route,
changing at CJ is a valid route for all 'not london' tickets.

tim

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:23:49 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote:

If London always means terminals,

It does.

Not relevant to this case, but one thing I've never been clear on is
whether Kensington Olympia counts as a London terminal for the
purposes of "NOT LONDON" ticketing, rather than just all the stations
that have "London" in their name. I suspect it may do, but I'm not
sure.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:23:49 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote:

Now, because of the Richmond loop there are indeed two routes to
Staines, one clockwise and one counter-clockwise (actually three if you
count via Weybridge, but I think it's forbidden). One would have thought
that 'not London' would force one to go clockwise round the loop. So who
was right? Logic or the official? And if the official was right, what
can be the purpose of disallowing London?

AIUI "London" is the London terminals rather than the conurbation,
especially as your journey started within it.

That's what I'd think usually, but in this specific case I can't see any
reason to forbid London terminals,

The reason is to stop you double backing between Waterloo
and CJ. If you want to do this the fare is higher (by the cost
of a return W-CJ for each direction of travel)

Also because you could take Thameslink from Wimbledon to Blackfriars,
then transfer to Waterloo (another way of getting a free trip to
London included in the price).

especially as Waterloo is the only
London terminal with services to Staines.

Why is this relevent? They stop at CJ and even if they didn't
you still wouldn't be able to change at Waterloo without paying
the higher fare.

IIRC there is actually a specific easement in the Routeing Guide
allowing doubling-back between CJ and Waterloo.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 3 Aug 2005 21:23:49 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote:

If London always means terminals,

It does.

Not relevant to this case, but one thing I've never been clear on is
whether Kensington Olympia counts as a London terminal for the
purposes of "NOT LONDON" ticketing, rather than just all the stations
that have "London" in their name. I suspect it may do, but I'm not
sure.

I travelled Oxford to Clapham Junction "not London" on a virgin to Olympia
and then a silverlink. I checked with the conductor on the virgin soon
after boarding at Oxford (so that I could get off at Reading and get on SWT
if necessary), and she assured me it was valid. This was about five years
ago.

Michael

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

tim (moved to sweden) wrote:
AIUI "London" is the London terminals rather than the conurbation,
especially as your journey started within it.

That's what I'd think usually, but in this specific case I can't see any
reason to forbid London terminals,

The reason is to stop you double backing between Waterloo
and CJ. If you want to do this the fare is higher (by the cost
of a return W-CJ for each direction of travel)

I see. Isn't doubling back forbidden by the routeing guide anyway?

especially as Waterloo is the only
London terminal with services to Staines.

Why is this relevent? They stop at CJ and even if they didn't
you still wouldn't be able to change at Waterloo without paying
the higher fare.

Now that you explain it obviously it's not relevant, but my original
thoughts were that 'not london' might be to stop you transferring
through London to another operator, leaving from another terminal. (And
as asdf points out it does prevent this in the case of a Thameslink into
London.)

Alex.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

"Alex Watson" wrote in message
...
tim (moved to sweden) wrote:
AIUI "London" is the London terminals rather than the conurbation,
especially as your journey started within it.

That's what I'd think usually, but in this specific case I can't see any
reason to forbid London terminals,

The reason is to stop you double backing between Waterloo
and CJ. If you want to do this the fare is higher (by the cost
of a return W-CJ for each direction of travel)

I see. Isn't doubling back forbidden by the routeing guide anyway?

In general yes, but for journeys on the 'southern' via CJ there
has been a 'via' london fare for as long as I can remember.

For some journeys it makse sense to pay the extra.

tim

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

In general yes, but for journeys on the 'southern' via CJ there
has been a 'via' london fare for as long as I can remember.

For some journeys it makse sense to pay the extra.

....for example, if you are going to Portsmouth/Southampton/pretty much
any long-distance SWT destinations, where the fastest trains annoyingly
don't stop at CJ.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

When I was living near Clapham Junction I often travelled to
Sittingbourne in Kent. Sometimes they would (try!) to sell me a 'Not
via London' ticket which is rejected by the barriers at Victoria (in
that case I would just buy a single to Battersea Park...). IIRC the
price is the exactly the same for a via London ticket but I never could
work out how to get from CJ to Sittingbourne without going through
Victoria (prehaps it's possible by some obscure route to get to
Bromley?).

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:40:59 +0100, Alex Watson
said:

I see. Isn't doubling back forbidden by the routeing guide anyway?

I don't see how it can be, given that there are trains which go from
London to Hastings via Hampden Park, Eastbourne, and Hampden Park
(again).

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

"David Cantrell" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 11:40:59 +0100, Alex Watson
said:

I see. Isn't doubling back forbidden by the routeing guide anyway?

I don't see how it can be, given that there are trains which go from
London to Hastings via Hampden Park, Eastbourne, and Hampden Park
(again).

Doubling back is forbidden in general although there are certain exceptions,
one of which is Hampden Park-Eastbourne to avoid the ridiculous situation of
making passengers get off at Hampden Park and have to wait on the platform
for the train to go to Eastbourne and back.

Peter Smyth

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

On Wed, 03 Aug 2005 22:45:27 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

If London always means terminals,

It does.

Not relevant to this case, but one thing I've never been clear on is
whether Kensington Olympia counts as a London terminal for the
purposes of "NOT LONDON" ticketing, rather than just all the stations
that have "London" in their name. I suspect it may do, but I'm not
sure.

After playing around with QJump, it seems there are tickets available
from Guildford to Harrow & Wealdstone routed "CLAPHM J NOT LDN". If
they're not valid via Kenny O then that would make them a bit
pointless! (Although there is a convoluted permitted route via
CJ/Richmond and the NLL which also matches the description.)

There are no tickets available specifically routed via Kensington
Olympia. Strangely though, Guildford to Watford Junction doesn't have
the "CLAPHM J NOT LDN" ones, but does have route "KENSNGTN OLYMPIA"
ones instead. (The permitted route via the NLL also exists for
Guildford to Watford Jn, but for some reason is prohibited on the
cheaper tickets in this case.)

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

On Thu, 04 Aug 2005 03:20:13 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

If a ticket has the "Maltese Cross" on it, indicating that it's valid
for a cross-London transfer by London Underground, DLR or Thameslink
services, the following stations can be used:

Aldgate Farringdon Queens Park
Amersham Finsbury Park Richmond
Baker Street Greenwich Seven Sisters
Balham Highbury & Islington Southwark
Bank Kensington Olympia Stratford
Barking Kentish Town Tottenham Hale
Blackfriars King's Cross/St Pancras Tower Hill
Blackhorse Road Lancaster Gate Upminster
Canning Town Lewisham Vauxhall
Cannon Street Limehouse Victoria
Charing Cross Liverpool Street Walthamstow Central
Ealing Broadway London Bridge Waterloo
Edgware Road Marylebone West Brompton
Elephant & Castle Moorgate West Ham
Embankment New Cross Gate West Hampstead
Euston Old Street Wimbledon
Euston Square Paddington

At least, those are the lists published in Section A of the current
National Fares Manuals. I suspect, however, the Waterloo East is missing
from the "London Terminals" group (given that Old Street and Vauxhall
are there), and New Cross from the cross-London group.

Strange also that the Chiltern Ruislips, and Greenford, aren't on
there. How is one supposed to travel on a Denham to South Greenford
ticket (if one even exists)? The NR journey planner chokes on such a
request - although it's happy to send you on the tube from South
Ruislip to Greenford if you ask it for Denham to Southall.

Is Clapham 'London'?
 

On Mon, 08 Aug 2005 15:41:06 +0100, Barry Salter
wrote:

Strange also that the Chiltern Ruislips, and Greenford, aren't on
there. How is one supposed to travel on a Denham to South Greenford
ticket (if one even exists)? The NR journey planner chokes on such a
request - although it's happy to send you on the tube from South
Ruislip to Greenford if you ask it for Denham to Southall.

That's covered by a different set of rules, relating to
interavailability of National Rail tickets on London Underground
services, and vice versa.

Sorry if I wasn't clear, but the LU journey (cross-London transfer)
I'm talking about is from South Ruislip to Greenford, which isn't
covered in the list of interavailable routes you posted.

For National Rail tickets, those sections are as follows (the first
entry in each case refers to the National Rail section, the latter the
LU/DLR validity):

Any two North London Line stations between Richmond and North Woolwich:
By any reasonable combination of LU/DLR services, but not for exit at
any intermediate LU or DLR station

Interesting... so if you started at Willesden Junction and bought a NR
ticket to Highbury & Islington (£1.30, or 85p with a Railcard), you
could use it on the tube instead? And presumably it would be valid for
interchange from the Circle to the Vic at King's Cross, where you
temporarily leave the station, and could mysteriously disappear during
the interchange? :)

(A Willesden Jn - KX LU single is normally £2.80)