Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak.
I had Prom tickets for the 9th Symphony last night.

Thought I'd take 302 to somewhere beyond Willesden and 52 to RAH;
simple, about an hour, minimal expense for my partner (I have a Freedom
Pass), next-to no walking, etc.

Then I checked with Journey Planner; this put me on the Tube via
Leicester Square and South Ken, which would have entailed a long walk,
more expense and more changes; it would also have taken longer.

I unchecked everything but 'bus' and specified 'Kensal Rise' for my
trip; JP then took me via Burnt Oak on a journey lasting 1hr 40 min.

Ignored JP and took buses as I'd planned. One hour door-to-door, even
less on the return.

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert Hall' as
my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have done for a
better suggestion?

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert Hall' as
my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have done for a
better suggestion?

In the advanced options, set it to use bus only. It will then come up
with exactly the route you had expected:

Walk to Holyrood Gardens
Take the Bus 302 towards Kensal Rise
Kensal Rise Station Stop: KH
Take the Bus 52 towards Victoria Bus Station
end Kensington / Royal Albert Hall

--
Paul Terry

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In article ,
(Helen Deborah Vecht) wrote:

I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak.
I had Prom tickets for the 9th Symphony last night.

Thought I'd take 302 to somewhere beyond Willesden and 52 to RAH;
simple, about an hour, minimal expense for my partner (I have a
Freedom Pass), next-to no walking, etc.

Then I checked with Journey Planner; this put me on the Tube via
Leicester Square and South Ken, which would have entailed a long walk,
more expense and more changes; it would also have taken longer.

I unchecked everything but 'bus' and specified 'Kensal Rise' for my
trip; JP then took me via Burnt Oak on a journey lasting 1hr 40 min.

Ignored JP and took buses as I'd planned. One hour door-to-door,
even less on the return.

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert
Hall' as my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have
done for a better suggestion?

You're not alone in being disappointed by the recent performance of
TfL's Journey Planner. It seems to have become infected by
transportdirect.info.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert Hall'
as my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have done for a
better suggestion?

In the advanced options, set it to use bus only. It will then come up
with exactly the route you had expected:

Walk to Holyrood Gardens
Take the Bus 302 towards Kensal Rise
Kensal Rise Station Stop: KH
Take the Bus 52 towards Victoria Bus Station
end Kensington / Royal Albert Hall

Not even that. I chose the "Route with the least walking between stops"
option and got that as the second route offered.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

Paul Terry typed


In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert Hall' as
my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have done for a
better suggestion?

In the advanced options, set it to use bus only. It will then come up
with exactly the route you had expected:

Walk to Holyrood Gardens
Take the Bus 302 towards Kensal Rise
Kensal Rise Station Stop: KH
Take the Bus 52 towards Victoria Bus Station
end Kensington / Royal Albert Hall

Well, that's not what it did when I used it yesterday; somehow, it
'forgot' the second half of my postcode and offered me a choice of
various HA8 starts. Even when I entered a 'Stag Lane' option from a drop
down list, it routed me via Burnt Oak and/or suggested I take a
northbound 32/142/292.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Not even that. I chose the "Route with the least walking between stops"
option and got that as the second route offered.

What was the first route? Routes offered often vary according to the
time of day you request (especially with less frequent services on a
Sunday).

--
Paul Terry

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article ,
(Helen Deborah Vecht) wrote:

I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak.
I had Prom tickets for the 9th Symphony last night.

Thought I'd take 302 to somewhere beyond Willesden and 52 to RAH;
simple, about an hour, minimal expense for my partner (I have a
Freedom Pass), next-to no walking, etc.

Then I checked with Journey Planner; this put me on the Tube via
Leicester Square and South Ken, which would have entailed a long walk,
more expense and more changes; it would also have taken longer.

I unchecked everything but 'bus' and specified 'Kensal Rise' for my
trip; JP then took me via Burnt Oak on a journey lasting 1hr 40 min.

Ignored JP and took buses as I'd planned. One hour door-to-door,
even less on the return.

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert
Hall' as my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have
done for a better suggestion?

You're not alone in being disappointed by the recent performance of
TfL's Journey Planner. It seems to have become infected by
transportdirect.info.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

I tried to use it to reach Syon House/Park, but it won't recognise either
name.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In message , Orienteer
writes

I tried to use it to reach Syon House/Park, but it won't recognise either
name.

It recognises Syon House for me (you did enter it as a place of
interest, I hope, and not as a bus stop or address?).

--
Paul Terry

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...
I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak.
I had Prom tickets for the 9th Symphony last night.
....

I hope you enjoyed the concert. Good, wasn't it?
In the old days the "Choral" would have been the penultimate night of the
season, but we've still got 3 weeks to go. Remember that the Last Night is
another of the weekends when the Circle & District aren't running through
South Ken.
--
David Biddulph

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:56 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Helen Deborah Vecht) wrote:

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert
Hall' as my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have
done for a better suggestion?

Others have made the suggestion of mangling the options to the point
where it is telling you what you already know.

I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing knowledge of
the transport network that the average person would not have at all. Why
send people round the houses by tube for a trip that can work well using
two buses?

You're not alone in being disappointed by the recent performance of
TfL's Journey Planner. It seems to have become infected by
transportdirect.info.

Heaven help us then. I've tried to use transport direct and found it
utterly useless. Some of the traveline search engines are OK but I wish
they would standardise on a format - the different user interfaces for
each region are incredibly annoying and often not remotely intuitive.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

Not even that. I chose the "Route with the least walking between
stops "option and got that as the second route offered.

What was the first route? Routes offered often vary according to the
time of day you request (especially with less frequent services on a
Sunday).

I chose 18:00 next Saturday as the time to match the original request
as closely as I could.

The first route was Walk to The Highlands, 114 to Burnt Oak (warning of
delays in Watling Avenue due to road works), then Northern line to
Euston and Victoria line to Green Park, then 9 bus. The other three
routes were using 302 and 52 buses.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Others have made the suggestion of mangling the options to the point
where it is telling you what you already know.

I don't think that's entirely fair, at least without knowing precisely
how Helen primed the search engine.

For instance, to arrive at the Albert Hall by 19:00 on a Saturday, the
Journey Planner suggests that the quickest route is the one via Green
Park that she rejected:

Leave at 17.21 and arrive at 18.49, with a journey time of 1'28".

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing knowledge of
the transport network that the average person would not have at all.

I don't necessarily think so. Helen knew the route she wanted, but it is
actually a little longer.

Why send people round the houses by tube for a trip that can work well
using two buses?

Because it is potentially quicker using the tube.

Where human knowledge comes in is the experience that two changes risks
more delay than one - but then experience might also suggest that a
delay on the tube is generally less likely and less damaging than a bus
that gets stuck in traffic.

The Journey Planner is far from perfect but, like most search engines,
what you put in determines what comes out. If you want minimum changes
rather than the quickest way, say so - and it will come up with the
two-bus route.

--
Paul Terry

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

I chose 18:00 next Saturday as the time to match the original request
as closely as I could.

The first route was Walk to The Highlands, 114 to Burnt Oak (warning of
delays in Watling Avenue due to road works), then Northern line to
Euston and Victoria line to Green Park, then 9 bus.

And that indeed is potentially the quickest route (1'29")

The other three routes were using 302 and 52 buses.

All slightly longer (up to 1'34").

--
Paul Terry

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In article ,
(Paul Corfield) wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 15:56 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Helen Deborah Vecht) wrote:

I'd entered my HA8 5LW postcode as my start and 'Royal Albert
Hall' as my destination. Why was JP so dismal? What could I have
done for a better suggestion?

Others have made the suggestion of mangling the options to the point
where it is telling you what you already know.

I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing
knowledge of the transport network that the average person would
not have at all. Why send people round the houses by tube for a
trip that can work well using two buses?

My point was that I didn't go that far. I chose an option, "Route with
the least walking between stops" which seemed better to reflect Helen's
mobility, and it came up with more sensible suggestions.

You're not alone in being disappointed by the recent performance
of TfL's Journey Planner. It seems to have become infected by
transportdirect.info.

Heaven help us then. I've tried to use transport direct and found it
utterly useless. Some of the traveline search engines are OK but
I wish they would standardise on a format - the different user
interfaces for each region are incredibly annoying and often not
remotely intuitive.

Yes, I've been worried by TfL's JP performance recently.

Its suggestions for my journey to work are laughable, not between home
and King's Cross (apart from suggesting using a Guide Friday bus to
Cambridge station) but from there to work. It sends me on the
Piccadilly to Leicester Square and on the 24 and 77A from there to
work, taking a helluvalot longer than it takes me when I don't have my
bike via the Victoria and Jubilee lines to Westminster.

It did (at the second attempt) make a sensible suggestion for the
homeward journey which is actually what I do without the bike, St
James's Park to victoria and thence to KXSP by Victoria Line. The walk
from London Victoria to London Victoria looks rather weird.

It also doesn't allow me to cycle to the station. :-(

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005, Helen Deborah Vecht wrote:

I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak. I had Prom tickets
for the 9th Symphony last night.

Thought I'd take 302 to somewhere beyond Willesden and 52 to RAH;
simple, about an hour, minimal expense for my partner (I have a Freedom
Pass), next-to no walking, etc.

Then I checked with Journey Planner; this put me on the Tube via
Leicester Square and South Ken, which would have entailed a long walk,
more expense and more changes;

To be fair, you didn't tell it to minimise cost or walking, and i think
minimising total travel time is the most sensible default.

it would also have taken longer.

Are you absolutely sure about that? If there's one thing i've learned
about public transport in London, it's to avoid buses like the plague -
IME, they're reliably slower and less frequent than advertised, especially
during peak times like the evening rush. Although it seems ...

Ignored JP and took buses as I'd planned. One hour door-to-door, even
less on the return.

.... that this isn't true where you live!

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

tom

--
No kings, voting or presidents, just a rough consensus and running code. -- Dave Clark

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

"David Biddulph" typed


"Helen Deborah Vecht" wrote in message
...
I live on the 302 bus route, south-west of Burnt Oak.
I had Prom tickets for the 9th Symphony last night.
....

I hope you enjoyed the concert. Good, wasn't it?

Wonderful!
Had an email to say we were on TV; we don't have a TV and don't really
care. I was two boxes to the left of the BBC, wearing a navy jacket and
red shirt...

In the old days the "Choral" would have been the penultimate night of the
season, but we've still got 3 weeks to go. Remember that the Last Night is
another of the weekends when the Circle & District aren't running through
South Ken.

I won't be going to the last night. The best way for me to get to RAH is
by bus anyway ;-)

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message ,
Colin Rosenstiel writes

I chose 18:00 next Saturday as the time to match the original request
as closely as I could.

The first route was Walk to The Highlands, 114 to Burnt Oak
(warning of delays in Watling Avenue due to road works), then
Northern line to Euston and Victoria line to Green Park, then 9 bus.

And that indeed is potentially the quickest route (1'29")

The other three routes were using 302 and 52 buses.

All slightly longer (up to 1'34").

Not all. At least one was quicker, 1'23 IIRC.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

Paul Corfield typed


I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing knowledge of
the transport network that the average person would not have at all.

I somehow think it's been programmed to prefer or default to the
'faster' modes such as Tube and rail and somehow to route them via
stations as 'nodes', but I'm not a programmer.

Why
send people round the houses by tube for a trip that can work well using
two buses?

Poor programming, methinks.

Buses were cheaper, quicker, involved fewer changes and less walking, ie
better in every way...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:24 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

Yes, I've been worried by TfL's JP performance recently.

I haven't noticed anything bizarre, but I'll keep an eye on it for
interest's sake.

I just tried putting in my journey to work tomorrow morning and it
came up with the two sensible routes (though neither the one I
actually use, since walking from Charing Cross to the northern end of
Great Portland Street is just silly!)

--
James Farrar

September's coming soon

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

--
James Farrar

September's coming soon

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In article ,
(James Farrar) wrote:

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it
looks to me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to
Queensbury, take the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to
South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Yes, one of the strong reasons to prefer the bus for the RAH is that
it's very poorly located for the underground.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

Paul Terry typed


In message , Paul Corfield
writes

Others have made the suggestion of mangling the options to the point
where it is telling you what you already know.

I don't think that's entirely fair, at least without knowing precisely
how Helen primed the search engine.

'HA8 5LW' to 'Royal Albert Hall' at approx 17.30.

For instance, to arrive at the Albert Hall by 19:00 on a Saturday, the
Journey Planner suggests that the quickest route is the one via Green
Park that she rejected:

Leave at 17.21 and arrive at 18.49, with a journey time of 1'28".

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

Yebbut we left at 17.55 and arrived around 18.50....

I do find it very odd that to get the wretched thing to do something
even half sensible you actually have to have a pre-existing knowledge of
the transport network that the average person would not have at all.

I don't necessarily think so. Helen knew the route she wanted, but it is
actually a little longer.

Actually, it *was* shorter. Off-Peak bus journeys are faster, Tube
journeys often take longer and every change induces further delays.

Why send people round the houses by tube for a trip that can work well
using two buses?

Because it is potentially quicker using the tube.

Not in reality IME...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Green Park is to be eschewed mightily if you don't walk well...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:10:29 +0100, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Green Park is to be eschewed mightily if you don't walk well...

I eschew it mightily, and I *do* walk well. And quickly.

--
James Farrar

September's coming soon

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 22:10:29 +0100, Helen Deborah Vecht
wrote:

James Farrar typed


On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 20:30:15 +0100, Tom Anderson
wrote:

I'm interested by the routes that have been mentioned, though; it
looks to
me like your best bet would be to walk or get the bus to
Queensbury, take
the Jubilee to Green Park, then take the Picc to South Ken for the RAH.

That's at least a ten minute walk up Exhibition Road/through the
subway) though. Not to mention the time to make the connection at
Green Park.

Green Park is to be eschewed mightily if you don't walk well...

I eschew it mightily, and I *do* walk well. And quickly.

I did until a few years ago :-( I could even outwalk my then boyfriend -
6'4" of erstwhile mountaineer...

Not that I liked walking in long tunnels either...

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

Paul Terry typed

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

Yebbut we left at 17.55 and arrived around 18.50....

But that was only because, as you indicated, the 302 was not running to
schedule - they were only 5 minutes apart instead of the time-tabled 12
minutes.

The scheduled off-peak journey time for the two buses is 46 minutes. You
waited for about 4 minutes for the first bus and about 8 for the second,
and it presumably took 5 minutes to walk to the bus stop. That totals
over an hour ... so if you did it in 55 minutes, the buses surely
couldn't have been running to schedule?

The journey planner allows ample time for walking and changing, and
assumes worst-case scenarios for waiting. Do you not think that is
right? After all, if it had told you that the total time was 55 minutes,
and you then missed the start of the prom because it took 1'35" you
would surely be somewhat upset?

--
Paul Terry

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

Paul Terry typed


In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

Paul Terry typed

Helen's preferred route, using only buses is actually longer - leave at
17.09 and arrive at 18.44, with a journey time of 1'35"

Yebbut we left at 17.55 and arrived around 18.50....

But that was only because, as you indicated, the 302 was not running to
schedule - they were only 5 minutes apart instead of the time-tabled 12
minutes.

We actually caught up with the 302 that we'd missed.
Every 8-12 minutes could be more frequent than every 12 minutes.

The scheduled off-peak journey time for the two buses is 46 minutes. You
waited for about 4 minutes for the first bus and about 8 for the second,
and it presumably took 5 minutes to walk to the bus stop. That totals
over an hour ... so if you did it in 55 minutes, the buses surely
couldn't have been running to schedule?

Probably not. Off-peak buses often run rather faster than scheduled.

The journey planner allows ample time for walking and changing, and
assumes worst-case scenarios for waiting. Do you not think that is
right?

Yes, but my experience of using the Tube to Victoria suggests it's
rather 'optimistic'...

After all, if it had told you that the total time was 55 minutes,
and you then missed the start of the prom because it took 1'35" you
would surely be somewhat upset?

Agreed; in reality, we were meeting a friend at the Albert Memorial at
7pm, which built in some leeway. I thought we should leave home at about
6.45. The bus stop is about 100 yards away so it's usually less than 5
minutes' walk. Since I'd made the trip before (I think, possibly before
Ken increased London Bus frequency ;-) ), I thought an hour was a
realistic estimate.

My overall impression is that JP underestimates Tube journeys and
overestimates bus journeys.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

In message , Helen Deborah
Vecht writes

We actually caught up with the 302 that we'd missed.
Every 8-12 minutes could be more frequent than every 12 minutes.

But only if the buses are not running to schedule, since the exact
timetable at http://www.londonbusroutes.net/routes.htm indicates that at
the time of day concerned, buses leave Mill Hill at 12-minute intervals.

Off-peak buses often run rather faster than scheduled.

But there lies the rub - even if they leave on time, people later on the
route cannot rely on catching the bus they hope for if they run ahead of
schedule, whether such folk have used the journey planner or looked-up
the timetable. For instance, if each successive bus makes up 10 minutes
on the journey, the frequency at a stop near the end of the route could
end up with a 20-minute service interval instead of a 12-minute one.

My overall impression is that JP underestimates Tube journeys and
overestimates bus journeys.

It uses published timetables and I don't think it gets those times
wrong. But I think it creates more of a safety margin for buses - which
is perhaps understandable, given the state of London's roads.

Having said all that, I think it is inevitable that local knowledge and
personal circumstance can often beat the journey planner on bus
journeys.

For instance, from almost outside my house we have buses every 8 minutes
to Hammersmith tube station - but they start some miles away and are
therefore subject to delay. Only 3 minutes' walk away we have the
terminus of the number 209, from whence buses depart every 3-4 minutes
for the same destination - and, being the terminus, they mostly leave on
time. But which do you choose? I don't know - in whichever direction I
go I generally miss one or the other! Added to that is the fact that the
3-minute walk includes a steep climb over a railway bridge, which won't
suit everyone! I don't really see how the journey planner can cope with
quite this level of detail - it can only really be a rough guide.

--
Paul Terry

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

I t was programmed by Moe Larry and Curly:)

Good that I ignored Journey Planner...
 

Helen i think they could route you faster to Lincoln Center In NYC
faster:)