As I keep saying, and several posters keep ignoring, those not
*familiar enough with London* to use Oyster.

Yes this is true. The system is not properly explained to users.
The signs above prepay validators in various locations with "Prepay
users must touch here" are totally baffling to everyone. Even staff
do not seem to have consistent knowledge about how it works.

The cost benefits are not properly communicated either. I think some
people cannot beleive that the "technological option" can be cheaper
than buying paper tickets. How many low paid workers using the tube
before 06:30 know they could be getting discounted fares by using
Oyster? How has this group been targetted with marketing? How
about people who do not have English as a first language?

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 09:36:35 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

Not if you get on the bus and find you are out of credit.

How is this different from getting on a bus and finding you are out of
money?

You can easily look how much money you have in your wallet.

Not that that's really an issue, though - the technology exists for
smartcard readers (contact and contactless) to be made for about a
tenner. I've seen other organisations sell them, so I'm surprised TfL
don't.

Do TfL allow an "overdraft" of one (bus?) journey, perhaps only on
registered cards so they wouldn't have trouble getting it back? If
not, it would be worth consideration. At least one of the pre-pay
mobile phone companies allows for one "free" call in a given period (a
couple of months I think) with no credit.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:32:03 +0100, "TKD" wrote:

[double line-spaced]

The reason
for this is that when travelling on business my employer pays and not me
and when on holiday I just want to get from A to B with the least fuss.
I'm sure most infrequent tourists and visitors are much the same.

Well, it is good for you that you have (or your employer has) enough
cash not to have to worry about spending it sensibly. I, however,
don't. I suspect I am not in the minority.

(Anyone reading my other post of my forthcoming trip to the Far East
can be reassured that I am not paying for it; I definitely could not
afford to do so myself...)

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Do TfL allow an "overdraft" of one (bus?) journey, perhaps only on
registered cards so they wouldn't have trouble getting it back? If
not, it would be worth consideration. At least one of the pre-pay
mobile phone companies allows for one "free" call in a given period (a
couple of months I think) with no credit.

If you have auto top up activated you can go into negative balance on
the bus. It is corrected once you pass through a tube station barrier.

According to their website they plan to add auto top up to bus and
trams "soon".

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 17:42:26 +0100, "TKD" wrote:

The cost benefits are not properly communicated either. I think some
people cannot beleive that the "technological option" can be cheaper
than buying paper tickets. How many low paid workers using the tube
before 06:30 know they could be getting discounted fares by using
Oyster? How has this group been targetted with marketing? How
about people who do not have English as a first language?

So, we're now on the same page - having gone via most of the Tube
system, hopefully using an Oystercard to keep the fare down

Do you, then, agree that this not-insignificant matter should be
sorted out *before* punitive fares on paper ticketing are introduced?

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Neil Williams" wrote in message
...
True. It's only a recent thing, though - I'm fairly sure that 1st and
2nd class stamps used to have the price printed on them, so if you had
a load and the price went up you had to go to the Post Office and buy
a load of 1 or 2p stamps to be able to use them.


Yes, stamps inscribed 1st and 2nd were introduced in 1990. So, it depends on
your definition of "recent" I guess.

--
Richard

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 16:57:59 +0000 (UTC), "Richard Rundle"
wrote:

Yes, stamps inscribed 1st and 2nd were introduced in 1990. So, it depends on
your definition of "recent" I guess.

They weren't universal, I think. I have had stamps (1st/2nd) marked
with the price much more recently than that, as I recall.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

"Phil Richards" wrote in message
.. .

The W7 (Finsbury Park to Muswell Hill) went cash free
about 4 years ago as a trial, successful it has been
though to be fair it is a short route with high frequency.
I can't see the whole of the capital going to road side
machines, however what's needed is a steady
introduction at strategic stops.

There is no need to make the whole of London prepaid only, just the
well-used stops. There would be no confusion for passengers, because the bus
stops that had machines would be prepaid-only, and those that didn't
wouldn't.

What I find bizarre is that the W7 machines are, or at least were, W7-only.
Why allow people to buy tickets on a 144 or W3 at a stop that has a ticket
machine for the W7?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

The cost benefits are not properly communicated either. I think some
people cannot beleive that the "technological option" can be cheaper
than buying paper tickets. How many low paid workers using the tube
before 06:30 know they could be getting discounted fares by using
Oyster? How has this group been targetted with marketing? How
about people who do not have English as a first language?

So, we're now on the same page - having gone via most of the Tube
system, hopefully using an Oystercard to keep the fare down

Do you, then, agree that this not-insignificant matter should be
sorted out *before* punitive fares on paper ticketing are introduced?

The "educational marketing" campaign has been lacking in many areas.
That said, there is also a significant group of people who will never come
round to the idea of electronic ticketing unless they are forced to investigate
it by some shock - such as bus fares that cost more than a pound or a tube
ride from Bow Road to Mile End that costs £3.00. Small increased have
not provided enough incentive. One can only hope that this reality is
communicated properly by January 2006 to enough people.

The phased implementation has been at a steady pace although lack of
function has been annoying such as using prepay before the buses went
live, before capping came in and before auto top up. Seeing how difficult it
is for some people (and staff) to grasp how each new feature works makes
it clear that it is the right approach. It is not desirable for too many features
to go live at once while at the same time the way the tube is run needs to
become more cost effective as quickly as possible for the good of everyone.
If it becomes too expensive to run the extra "funding" (tax) can only come
from one place.

So basically that is why I support moving along as quickly as possible with a
phased feature roll-out and why creating "incentive" fares at this stage is important.

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 16:46:20 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

Do TfL allow an "overdraft" of one (bus?) journey, perhaps only on
registered cards so they wouldn't have trouble getting it back?

Surely the whole point of the £3 deposit is that it covers a potential
"overdraft"? So there should be no problem with allowing it for
unregistered cards too.

Incidentally, I've noticed that the barriers allow you to re-enter the
tube system during an out-of-station interchange even if the first leg
of the journey made your balance negative.