On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 21:38:52 GMT,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

So Oyster is crap because you can't keep track of something as simple
as how much pre-pay you have on it?

It is a fault, yes. It is one that TfL would be able to solve quite
easily by obtaining a quantity of pocket validators and selling them
at ticket offices (or by mail order) to those who want them. I
believe they cost under a tenner a shot.

Will people please stop getting so defensive and assuming that
pointing out a limitation of Oyster is a statement that it is "crap",
as this is not the case.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Neil Williams wrote:

The ones that get caught out will be
the infrequent users, tourists etc. who fail to find out and, worse still,
won't be advised by ticket sellers at stations they have a cheaper option
when they fork out 3 quid for a cash single. That's what TfL/LUL need to
concentrate on next.

Absolutely. I would suggest they needed to do that *before* the
punitive fares were proposed. That said, they have 3 months or so to
get their act together...

No doubt the Fares & Tickets booklet will be widely available and I
wouldn't be surprised if their will be a big poster campaign too promoting
the differences in cash vs prepay options for single rides.

---
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk

"Nick Cooper" wrote in
message ...
On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:40:26 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote:


This is exactly right. I did not say they had to use 10 days
leave, but that they had a period of 2 weeks when the did
not go to work.

Even the maximum of 10 is not "2 weeks." Most years it's only 8 days -
i.e. one week and one day - as it is this year.

I accept that you live in a world where people have to work
over the Xmas period. But I work in a world where the company
shuts down for the whole period, sometimes for a full two weeks.
This has happend at every company that I have worked at
in the last 25 years (I freelance and average about one
company per year).

However, hardly anyone I know gets that.
FWIW It's bloody annoying and I hate having to waste
my holiday days in this way, so I don't see it as getting
a benefit.

It is my contention that more people work in my world than
in yours.

No-one is sensibly going to buy a monthly season on the 4th
of December as they will not be using it from 25th to the 1st

You mean "... _if_ they will not be using it from 25th to the 1st."

Well obviously. If you're nitpicking about this what else
have you nitpicked about?

(and in many cases longer).

You keep claiming this; I - and a number of other posters, it seems -
dispute it.



And most people take 2 (or more) weeks holiday in the
summer/easter when the kids are off school.

It may have escaped your notice, but there are more households in the
country _without_ children than those with.

They still take holidays in 'chunks'.

Think again. "Most people" do not have school-age children, so why
would they be taking their holidays "when the kids are off school."

I said in chunks, i.e a week or two at a time.
I accept that I made a mistake saying that everyone goes in the school
holiday (I forgot that the demographgic of newsgroups is younger
than the population!), but most peopel are still going to take a period
holiday to go somewhere or other.

You're claiming a majority where no such majority actually exists in
the population.

I still think it is.

12 million package holidays per year are sold so almost 25% of the
population go away on an *organised* holiday each yer
..
Most do IME.

Well, in mine, most _don't_.

Purely subjective. My subjective view is that the vast majority of
people I know take one or two separate weeks off,

Isn't this what I have been saying?

and/or a combination
of that and lost weekends dotted around the year. Personally, in 19

tim

"Phil Richards" wrote in message
...
John Rowland wrote:

There is no need to make the whole of London prepaid only, just the
well-used stops. There would be no confusion for passengers, because the
bus
stops that had machines would be prepaid-only, and those that didn't
wouldn't.

But surely isn't the plan to make all buses cash free? In which case I'm
sure there will be stops without machines plus of course lengthy sections
of hail & ride services. In those cases I can see that passengers will
have
to have a valid ticket, pass or prepay in hand before boarding.

I realise that the legal systems might be different however
I think the principle of avoiding payment is the same, but
Hannover lost a legal case doing just this.

They tried to prosecute some people for riding without
a ticket from a stop with no machine They lost on the
basis that as the pax hadn't been given the opportunity
to buy a ticket so it was unreasonable to expect then to
have done so.

And this is in a town where it is possible to buy advanced
undated single tickets for all rides which isn't currently an
option in London.

tim

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 12:25:36 +0200, "tim \(moved to sweden\)"
wrote:

They tried to prosecute some people for riding without
a ticket from a stop with no machine They lost on the
basis that as the pax hadn't been given the opportunity
to buy a ticket so it was unreasonable to expect then to
have done so.

Last time I travelled in Hannover (circa 2000) it was possible to buy
a ticket from the driver, even on a tram.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

So Oyster is crap because you can't keep track of something as simple
as how much pre-pay you have on it?

It is a fault, yes. It is one that TfL would be able to solve quite
easily by obtaining a quantity of pocket validators and selling them
at ticket offices (or by mail order) to those who want them. I
believe they cost under a tenner a shot.

Will people please stop getting so defensive and assuming that
pointing out a limitation of Oyster is a statement that it is "crap",
as this is not the case.

This is not a limitation. The balance comes up on the screen of the
bus and on the tube gates - there is no way that you can't have a
rough idea of what you have.

Failing that the website has your balance on it. If you need constant
reminding of your balance get a nice smart phone or one with pocket
windows on it so you can log in anywhere.

Finally, I just can't see TfL encouraging any kind of Oyster reader
technology other than the ones they have on their premises/vehichles.
As the balance and ticket information is actually held on the card,
conceivably someone could attempt to add tickets/balance at home
using modified equipment. I'm sure there is fantastic security in place
to stop this but issuing take-away devices capable of "talking" to the
Oyster card that could be adapted, copied or modified is not a good
way to keep the system secure.

On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 01:02:56 +0100, James Farrar
wrote:

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 21:39:31 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 18:27:58 on Sat, 8 Oct
2005, "tim (moved to sweden)" remarked:
And as I have posted before,
IME it is common for non first language English speakers not to
be able to tell the difference between the various English language
countries' accents (strange as it may seem to you and I).

It's worse than that. Many Americans can't tell the difference (in
accent) between English and Australian.

And many English people can't tell the difference between American and
Canadian.

There are more similarities between them than between English and
Australian. If you said Australian and New Zealand you might have a
point.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

On Sat, 08 Oct 2005 17:09:09 GMT, (Neil
Williams) wrote:

On Sat, 8 Oct 2005 16:57:59 +0000 (UTC), "Richard Rundle"
wrote:

Yes, stamps inscribed 1st and 2nd were introduced in 1990. So, it depends on
your definition of "recent" I guess.

They weren't universal, I think. I have had stamps (1st/2nd) marked
with the price much more recently than that, as I recall.

The ones marked 1st or 2nd are the ones sold in books (6 or 12) and in
vending machines.

--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

If pre-pay is generally unavailable on NR maybe a Borough south of the
Thames could mount a legal challenge to the Mayor's transport policy?

LB of Bromley seems a good candidate?

tim (moved to sweden) wrote:

And this is in a town where it is possible to buy advanced
undated single tickets for all rides which isn't currently an
option in London.

In London you do have the option of buying undated single tickets for the
buses (Saver 6).

As for the Underground, when ticket offices are closed you normally have
the fallback of a ticket machine or at least being able to pay at the other
end (with signs in evidence to advise passengers of this).

I suspect with the DLR and Tramlink any revenue inspectors would know anout
stations/stops where machines are not working in the case of dealing with
ticketless travellers.

--
Phil Richards
London, UK
Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk