On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:29 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:13 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

This is a totally absurd argument. I can look in my wallet to see
whether I've any cash left before going to an ATM. I can't look at
an Oyster before getting on a bus to see if I need to go somewhere
else to recharge it.

And the technology is available for minimal cost to provide pocket
keyring readers. So why not do it, and sell them at cost price? It
would cost TfL nothing, and would be a benefit to users.

Anyone who really wants to get smartcard reading technology can get it
quite easily and legitimately on the open market. Oystercard is by no
means proprietary in that regard, and I don't see the argument that
others have put forward that it would be a security risk.

I seem to be expected to shell out £3 to avoid paying for two tube
singles (this year so far) and now you want people like me to pay for a
reader too?

You seem determined to cut off your nose to spite your face. You pay
£3 and unless you actually don't register it and then lose it, you
don't have to pay that £3 ever again. In two single Tube journeys,
you'll have paid for the card. After that, you start saving money
compared to paying cash. This is so blindingly simple, I'm stunned
that you can't even acknowledge the fact.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

The press release says: "A single journey in Zones 2-6 will cost £1 on
Oyster if you pay as you go, compared to £3 if you use cash". I was
quite excited by this. But according to the tables, it will still cost
£1.80 unless your journey only covers 1 or 2 zones.

Or is before 7, after 7 or at weekend. I guess £1 at peak times was too
good to be true. You are right the implication from the press release is
that its all the time. Which would mean Hornchurch to Canary Wharf
weekly commute on prepay would be £14 per week instead of £27.20
weekly ticket. Ok, I'm starting to see why the £1 "peak" fare is unlikely.

It also says "All daily price caps for bus, Tube, DLR and tram travel
are reduced or frozen", but according to the PDF, the Z1-6 cap will be
increasing from £5.70 to £5.80.

Yes and the way the caps are listed on that pdf is sloppy, just putting the
footnote about 50p off

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:13 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

Given that people can check how much Pre-Pay they have at the same
"places" that they actually add the Pre-Pay in the first place, it's
hardly a convincing argument. Would you say that a ATM card is
"limited" because you can't tell how much money you have in your
account unless you go to an ATM to check?

This is a totally absurd argument. I can look in my wallet to see
whether I've any cash left before going to an ATM.

But what if you wanted to use the card for a Switch transaction?
Considering people manage to keep track of their bank accounts to a
degree that they can safely make a Switch payment without having to
check their balance first, Oyster should be a doddle.

I can't look at an Oyster before getting on a bus to see if I need
to go somewhere else to recharge it.

Considering all the places you can check it at any time, that would
really be your problem.

--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 18:29 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Neil Williams) wrote:

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:13 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

This is a totally absurd argument. I can look in my wallet to see
whether I've any cash left before going to an ATM. I can't look at
an Oyster before getting on a bus to see if I need to go somewhere
else to recharge it.

And the technology is available for minimal cost to provide pocket
keyring readers. So why not do it, and sell them at cost price? It
would cost TfL nothing, and would be a benefit to users.

Anyone who really wants to get smartcard reading technology can get
it quite easily and legitimately on the open market. Oystercard is
by no means proprietary in that regard, and I don't see the
argument that others have put forward that it would be a security
risk.

I seem to be expected to shell out £3 to avoid paying for two tube
singles (this year so far) and now you want people like me to pay for
a reader too?

You seem determined to cut off your nose to spite your face. You pay
£3 and unless you actually don't register it and then lose it, you
don't have to pay that £3 ever again. In two single Tube journeys,
you'll have paid for the card. After that, you start saving money
compared to paying cash. This is so blindingly simple, I'm stunned
that you can't even acknowledge the fact.

No actually. My two fares were £2 (Zone 1) and £2.30 (Zones 1 & 2),
total £4.30. As of now In don't know whether I'll want any more such
fares this year as it depends on the weather.

From Jan 2006 they would both be £3 each, total £6, or £1.50 and £2 plus
£3 for the Oyster, total £6.50, plus "cost" for an Oyster reader to know
if I've got enough credit on it the next time I use it months later.
Terrific!

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 14:13 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In article ,
(Nick Cooper) wrote:

Given that people can check how much Pre-Pay they have at the same
"places" that they actually add the Pre-Pay in the first place, it's
hardly a convincing argument. Would you say that a ATM card is
"limited" because you can't tell how much money you have in your
account unless you go to an ATM to check?

This is a totally absurd argument. I can look in my wallet to see
whether I've any cash left before going to an ATM.

But what if you wanted to use the card for a Switch transaction?
Considering people manage to keep track of their bank accounts to a
degree that they can safely make a Switch payment without having to
check their balance first, Oyster should be a doddle.

That must be why I use Visa (nowhere near my credit limit) and not
Switch then.

I can't look at an Oyster before getting on a bus to see if I need
to go somewhere else to recharge it.

Considering all the places you can check it at any time, that would
really be your problem.

Except that I cycle when I can. The exceptions involve travel cards to
get to such places as Hornsey or King's Cross mainline station, not well
provided with access to Oyster information.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , Sunil Sood
writes

I don't think that Wandsworth gets a particularily good deal on its
government funding

Don't you? 82% of its expenditure is met by government funding, compared
with 49% in neighbouring Richmond. The level of subvention for
Wandsworth is as high as in much more clearly deprived boroughs such as
Tower Hamlets.

For that reason, my Council Tax on a small terraced house in the LB of
Richmond is over 2000 quid, while an identical house only metres away
pays Wandsworth under half of that.

--
Paul Terry

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Chris Tolley
writes
Paul Terry wrote:

As has been said here repeatedly, using Oyster is not a sensible option
for those who use National Rail and who don't have to commute daily.

Repeating it does not make it any truer.

Nor does it make it any the less true. Your point is ... ?

That I disagree with the assertion and repeating it does not give me any
additional evidence to consider.
--
http://gallery120232.fotopic.net/p9946359.html
(156 449 in Scotrail colours, matching the footbridge, Dumfries, 2004)

I don't think that Wandsworth gets a particularily good deal on its government funding

It's an Inner London borough so it should.

Newham would be an example of a borough getting a bad deal.

In article ,
(TKD) wrote:

I don't think that Wandsworth gets a particularily good deal on its
government funding

It's an Inner London borough so it should.

Newham would be an example of a borough getting a bad deal.

OK, I agree comparing Wandsworth with Richmond has that drawback but how
does Wandsworth compare with Hammersmith and Fulham then?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In message , TKD
writes
This is not a limitation. The balance comes up on the screen of the bus
and on the tube gates - there is no way that you can't have a rough
idea of what you have.

I've never worked this out.

Although my balance always seems to come up on 'bus readers, only once
or twice have I seen it come up on a tube gate reader. I thought at
one time that that was because I's just topped up but maybe there's
another reason for its apparently randomly doing this?


Incidentally, as someone who by definition deal with large numbers of
visitors (tourists) to London, can I chime in with some observations
here?

I think that the concept of cheaper fares on Pre Pay is something very
difficult to explain to the casual traveller. Indeed, even the thought
of having to buy tickets from a roadside machine before climbing on a
'bus seems to put off many of my clients!

This morning I dropped an assorted group from the North of England and
North Staffordshire at Park Lane for the day. Some wanted to get to
Westminster Pier and others to Covent Garden.

The couple wanting Covent Garden were planning to go by bus but didn't
as they couldn't find any saying "Covent Garden" on the front. Hmmmmm.

The couple going to Westminster Pier had actually sought my advice about
going by 'bus. I sent them to catch a 159 (which remember didn't even
require buying a ticket from a roadside machine, being an RM route).

When they came back this afternoon, both couples turned out to have each
taken a taxi both ways (and complained about the cost!). They were
just too daunted by the thought of using public transport to even try.
It made me rather sad and when I have to explain the very high price of
casual tickets in the future or try to explain about Oyster Pre Pay,
well, I dread to think!

Now don't get me wrong,. I think that Oyster Pre-Pay is great
(although I feel it should have included NR from the start). Indeed,
it sometimes feels as though it was specially conceived just to suit my
personal needs! But it does daunt occasional travellers and will I
fear stop even more of them from using public transport.

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk