Bus tracking
 

Hello,

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

Cheers,
Simon

Bus tracking
 

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 08:56:29 +0100, PigPOg
wrote:

Hello,

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

Cheers,
Simon

Should've Googled ... it appears that TFL employ a Siemens satellite
tracking system.

Simon

Bus tracking
 

"PigPOg" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

Cheers,
Simon

Countdown system from SLE (France)
http://www.sle-fr.com/

Cheers
Steve

Bus tracking
 

"Steve Radford" wrote in message
...


"PigPOg" wrote in message
...
Hello,

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

Cheers,
Simon

Countdown system from SLE (France)
http://www.sle-fr.com/

Cheers
Steve

Does anyone know anything about the details about the BESI (Bus Electronic
Scanning Indicator) sytem and how it worked? Other than it based on barcodes
and scanning heads?
http://homepages.enterprise.net/beul.../london28.html

Bus tracking
 

Andy wrote:
"Steve Radford" wrote in message
...


"PigPOg" wrote in message
. ..

Hello,

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

Cheers,
Simon

Countdown system from SLE (France)
http://www.sle-fr.com/

Cheers
Steve


Does anyone know anything about the details about the BESI (Bus Electronic
Scanning Indicator) sytem and how it worked? Other than it based on barcodes
and scanning heads?
http://homepages.enterprise.net/beul.../london28.html


Each bus had a bar-code and a laser scanner on a concrete post (you can
see it in the photo) to read the code.
Info was relayed to inspectors at control room and they could 'turn
early' buses to reduce bunching and fill large gaps in service.

Bristol had an earlier abortive system with Lasers on buses and
bar-codes on Lamp posts. Unfortunately Lasers shook themselves to pieces
and buses had to be out of service for repair as no 'modular ' construction.

Jim Chisholm

Bus tracking
 

"J. Chisholm" wrote in message
...
Andy wrote:

Does anyone know anything about the details about the BESI (Bus
Electronic Scanning Indicator) sytem and how it worked? Other than it
based on barcodes and scanning heads?
http://homepages.enterprise.net/beul.../london28.html
Each bus had a bar-code and a laser scanner on a concrete post (you can
see it in the photo) to read the code.

Funny this. Many years ago MR had an item about how
BR were putting bar codes on the side of their locos to be
read by static scanners so that they could keep track (oops)
of their stock.

It was in the April edition.

tim

Bus tracking
 

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 11:02:04 +0100, "J. Chisholm"
wrote:

Bristol had an earlier abortive system with Lasers on buses and
bar-codes on Lamp posts. Unfortunately Lasers shook themselves to pieces
and buses had to be out of service for repair as no 'modular ' construction.

Hamburg used to have (may still do) a system based on infra-red remote
control, whereby the bus would send out a signal to identify itself to
the bus stop flag, which would also have a transceiver in it. Nice
idea, but reliability was awful, especially when the buses and/or
flags got mucky.

These days, GPS technology is so cheap it's almost not worth
considering anything else.

Neil

--
Neil Williams in Milton Keynes, UK
When replying please use neil at the above domain
'wensleydale' is a spam trap and is not read.

Bus tracking
 

In message , J. Chisholm
writes
Bristol had an earlier abortive system with Lasers on buses and
bar-codes on Lamp posts. Unfortunately Lasers shook themselves to
pieces and buses had to be out of service for repair as no 'modular '
construction.
Less than a third of the buses carried lasers and most of the bar codes
were turned around by the ****, sorry children at the time.
--
Clive

Bus tracking
 

On Wed, 12 Oct 2005 21:33:18 +0100, "Andy"
wrote:

Does anyone know anything about the details about the BESI (Bus Electronic
Scanning Indicator) sytem and how it worked? Other than it based on barcodes
and scanning heads?
http://homepages.enterprise.net/beul.../london28.html


BESI was around before barcodes were in common use. It used metal
strips with little reflective bits in them. Traditionally London
buses have always had a holder on each side for a plate which denotes
the bus's 'running number' (I think that's the correct term). Buses
which used BESI had an extra holder like this, but mounted near the
front between the decks, and the metal strips slotted into this.

The scanning heads had fairly large lenses in them. I've no idea what
sort of light source was used but it would have been very low
technology by today's standards. It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

Martin

Bus tracking
 

In article , Martin Rich
writes
It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

I don't think so. In the mid-1970s I was using a laser in school physics
lessons; the school had at least two for that purpose.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

Bus tracking
 

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:07:59 +0100,
Clive D. W. Feather
wrote in :
In article , Martin Rich
writes
It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

I don't think so. In the mid-1970s I was using a laser in school physics
lessons; the school had at least two for that purpose.

I saw my first laser during my introductory First Year Physics
lectures in 1970. I watched the laser spot in interest as the lecturer
(Ronald MacDonald) set it up, then gasped in awe as he walked straight
through the beam _and was not cut in half!_ It was a HeNe commercial
unit, probably a couple of mW...

--
Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".

Bus tracking
 

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:07:59 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

I don't think so. In the mid-1970s I was using a laser in school physics
lessons; the school had at least two for that purpose.

In the physics laboratory, by any chance? :-)

Bus tracking
 

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 12:07:59 +0100, "Clive D. W. Feather"
wrote:

In article , Martin Rich
writes
It certainly wouldn't have been a
laser as they were strictly for laboratory use in the 1960s and 1970s

I don't think so. In the mid-1970s I was using a laser in school physics
lessons; the school had at least two for that purpose.

Presumably those lessons took place in a laboratory, unless your
school had a rather unusual approach to physics teaching...

:-)

Martin

Bus tracking
 

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

Bus tracking
 

On 15 Oct 2005 16:38:24 -0700, wrote:

I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.

In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

Yes Countdown does have some flaws.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

I understand that more stops will be equipped but not all routes and not
all stops even on routes that do have displays. I think this is a missed
opportunity to provide a step change in information quality.

We have Countdown screens in parts of Walthamstow but they are in the
most stupid places and certainly not at the busiest stops e.g.
Walthamstow Central or at stops which are just served by one service
where knowing your waiting time is more important than where you have 5
routes giving a 2-3 headway.

I expect they don't provide them at termini because the system has no
concept of the timetable so is unable to predict when a bus on a parking
stand is due to move to a stop to actually depart. It would be able to
cope with through services as they are moving and could thus trigger the
beacons. I'm not sure if the TfL GPS based system is going to be able to
track against the schedule or not - the system on Metroline's buses does
do this but that is only for the use of the driver.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Bus tracking
 

On 16/10/2005 00:38, wrote:
I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.


In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

Yep, this problem is always fun - a bus gets stuck, or follows a
diversion and drops off countdown. You get left waiting for it, only to
find its not coming.

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?

There are plans a foot for a GPS based system, I think Orange and
Metroline have been involved with something together.

Ta,

Q

Bus tracking
 

Q wrote:
On 16/10/2005 00:38, wrote:
I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.


In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

Yep, this problem is always fun - a bus gets stuck, or follows a
diversion and drops off countdown. You get left waiting for it, only to
find its not coming.

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?

There are plans a foot for a GPS based system, I think Orange and
Metroline have been involved with something together.

Siemens are in charge of the replacement Countdown system which uses GPS
on board the vehicles. It will be installed on all 8,000 buses (rising
to 10,000 buses by the time the replacement system is fully installed),
and information displays will be installed at 2,000 bus shelters (I'm
not sure if this includes existing ones or not). They will roll out
improved realtime info for web/mobile users too. Completion is due for
2008, with Siemens maintaining the system for ten years after that.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Bus tracking
 

In article , Q wrote:
Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?

Can't say I know much about this, but if you use an 802.11 sniffer
you'll see probes for SSIDs such as 9WESTBOURNEPARK7 as a bus goes
past.

Paul

Bus tracking
 

On 01/11/2005 08:43, wrote:
In article , Q wrote:

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

Can someone in the 'know' tell me what there actually for, and if it is
countdown related what data are they sending over the air ?


Can't say I know much about this, but if you use an 802.11 sniffer
you'll see probes for SSIDs such as 9WESTBOURNEPARK7 as a bus goes
past.

Paul

That's handy to know.

Ill have to go and sit next to the one out on the Waterloo Rd at some
point with an 808.x sniffer and an RF sniffer.

I wondered if they where linked back to there band III radio system.

I see lots of SDM's being sent, and are unable to verify what's
generating them/where they going.

I know at one point Countdown screens used ISDN at the bus stops - you
used to see the NTE if ever the bottom of a shelter had been broken
(open) on fell off.

Q

Bus tracking
 

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:18:28 +0000, Q ..@.. wrote:

On 16/10/2005 00:38, wrote:
I think I read somewhere recently that London Buses can be tracked in
real-time to determine their position and hence bus-stop ETA. Does
anyone know what system is employed (preferably the manufacturer of
the kit used)and how reliable it is? Alternatively, perhaps someone
can suggest a contact at TFL.


In the 1990's we had the Countdown system that is still in use today,
but hasn't been rolled out everywhere because it's flawed. If a bus
gets stuck for any reason, I don't believe the time is adjusted. It can
only estimate a time when it passes fixed points, rather like tube
trains. It makes the xx minutes a bit of a waste of time ultimately.

When TfL visited our offices to show their journey planner, they said
they're investing in a new GPS system which will allow for proper
real-time tracking. I hope this will then mean screens can be added to
all the other routes as we were once promised!

Jonathan

Yep, this problem is always fun - a bus gets stuck, or follows a
diversion and drops off countdown. You get left waiting for it, only to
find its not coming.

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.
They're for bus priority at signals using wireless lan technolkogy.

Not part of Countdown.

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bus tracking
 

On 01/11/2005 20:30, Robert Woolley wrote:
On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 11:18:28 +0000, Q ..@.. wrote:


On 16/10/2005 00:38, wrote:

Which leads me onto the point of 'beacons' There are a few of these
dotted about on there own little posts with what look like VHF aerials
mounted on top of them.

They're for bus priority at signals using wireless lan technolkogy.

Not part of Countdown.

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Hmm. I see. But then I think to myself I see these beacons in places
without any traffic lights.
And if it is using 808.11x then the aerial looks wrong for 2.4GHz operation.

I shall have to do some investigating me thinks, and try and work out
what all the 'other' SDM's are on there band 3 network.


Thanks,
Q