tfl fine - advice needed
 

In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message ,
at 15:21:00 on Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
My observations are that the green light comes on when you use an
Oyster, the red one when you use a paper ticket. The paper ticket
is valid, so "red means valid".

I can't comment on the Oyster responses but the barriers at King's
Cross look pretty green to me with a paper ticket.

If that's the case, then they've been changed.

Having just been through said barriers tonight I now understand what
you're on about and why I hadn't noticed. Sorry.

There are lights on the barriers which is what paper ticket users need
to look at to know their ticket has been accepted and there are lights
by the Oyster sensors which tell you that sticking a paper ticket in the
slot closes the sensor (changes a light to red from yellow).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message , at
16:18:46 on Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Richard J.
remarked:
Passenger A inserts paper ticket. Oyster light goes red

But Colin says this is no longer the case. When was the change made?
I've used almost 100% Oyster for the last year, so am not in a
position to comment.

See my other reply.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

tfl fine - advice needed
 

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:39:33 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:14:55 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper
remarked:
No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it. She gambled
and lost. Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading. The comparison, therefore, if
perfectly valid. Unless she is completely stupid, she will have known
full well that she didn't pay to get on the bus.

Green light = You've paid; carry on boarding.
Red light = You've not paid (for whatever reason); re-touch or query
with driver.
No response = You've not paid; re-touch or query with driver.

It's hardly rocket science, is it?

(Does anyone else think it's odd that tube gates "acknowledge" the
receipt of a paper ticket by putting on a red, or is it orange, light?
So passengers begin to associate success with that.)

Presumed innocent until the case has come to court, eh?

Prseumed stupid in this case, more like.

Until you've heard the facts, not some garbled reporting of
pseudo-facts, you have no idea.

On the contrary, I am basing my judgement on what was so obviously
_not_ reported in the inevitably pro-(this particular)passenger,
anti-TfL version in the 'Standard': "[She] insisted she had passed her
card over the reader and neither the machine nor the driver warned her
that the payment had apparently failed." What is absent, of course,
is any claim that the machine acknowledged a successful payment, which
would probably be a bluff to far, even for her.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In message , at
20:16:00 on Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
Passenger A inserts paper ticket. Oyster light goes red

But Colin says this is no longer the case. When was the change made?
I've used almost 100% Oyster for the last year, so am not in a
position to comment.

See my other reply.

Thanks for getting back on this. It's confusing, isn't it?
--
Roland Perry

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message ,
at 20:16:00 on Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
Passenger A inserts paper ticket. Oyster light goes red

But Colin says this is no longer the case. When was the change
made? I've used almost 100% Oyster for the last year, so am not in a
position to comment.

See my other reply.

Thanks for getting back on this. It's confusing, isn't it?

TBH, not being an Oyster user I hadn't even noticed. My attention has
always been on the bit relevant to me. As has been explained to you, the
red light doesn't mean go, it means the Oyster reader is not ready to
read Oyster cards.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In message , at
01:21:00 on Mon, 31 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
TBH, not being an Oyster user I hadn't even noticed. My attention has
always been on the bit relevant to me. As has been explained to you, the
red light doesn't mean go, it means the Oyster reader is not ready to
read Oyster cards.

That may be the technical explanation (and it came up in here years ago
when the Oyster attachments were first installed), but for a normal
person who is simply using the gates, they get a consistent indication
that "red means ticket is OK".
--
Roland Perry

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In message , at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper
remarked:

No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it. She gambled
and lost. Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.

What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep, a
Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
these, then why are you doubting her.

Had she been paying the driver, she would have got a different kind of
failure notification - like still having the money in her hand, for
example.

--
Roland Perry

tfl fine - advice needed
 

Roland Perry wrote on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
In message , at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper
remarked:

No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it. She gambled
and lost. Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.

What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep,
a Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
these, then why are you doubting her.

Had she been paying the driver, she would have got a different kind of
failure notification - like still having the money in her hand, for
example.

From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:

"+ Touch in and touch out. At Tube and National Rail stations,
always touch your Oyster card on a card reader at the start and
end of your journey .....

"On Tube, DLR and National Rail, card readers normally show an
orange light. When you touch your Oyster card on the card reader
the light should turn green. If it doesn't, try again. If you
still fail to get a green light, or if it turns red, see a member
of staff. If none are available at the start of your journey, see
a member of staff as soon as possible.

"+ Touch in. On buses, always touch your Oyster card flat on the
card reader by the driver at the front of the bus as you board or,
where indicated on bendy-buses, on the reader by any door. On
buses with conductors, when asked, you must touch your Oyster
card on the card reader on his/her ticket machine.

"If the driver/conductor advises you that there is a problem with
your Oyster card, you will need to pay a cash fare for your
journey either on the bus or, where cash fares are not accepted
on the bus, from the nearest roadside ticket machine. You should
then contact the Oyster helpline on 0845 330 9876 for assistance
on what to do next."

Perhaps they should have said something about the passenger's
responsibility to check the lights when using an Oyster on a bus.
But they clearly haven't. They mention only the driver's
responsibility to check.
--
Iain Archer

tfl fine - advice needed
 

Iain Archer wrote:

From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:

What's the full URL of that file? I can't see it in the menus in the
"Tickets and Oyster" part of the TfL site.

It looks like something that should be sent to all new Oyster holders.
I bought online an Oyster card with Pre-Pay and Auto top-up, and was
surprised that it arrived through the post with no guidance on its use
whatever.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In article ,
(Roland Perry) wrote:

In message ,
at 01:21:00 on Mon, 31 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
TBH, not being an Oyster user I hadn't even noticed. My attention has
always been on the bit relevant to me. As has been explained to you,
the red light doesn't mean go, it means the Oyster reader is not
ready to read Oyster cards.

That may be the technical explanation (and it came up in here years
ago when the Oyster attachments were first installed), but for a
normal person who is simply using the gates, they get a consistent
indication that "red means ticket is OK".

Normal people not using Oyster need to look elsewhere for the
information they need.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In message , at
10:26:00 on Mon, 31 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
TBH, not being an Oyster user I hadn't even noticed. My attention has
always been on the bit relevant to me. As has been explained to you,
the red light doesn't mean go, it means the Oyster reader is not
ready to read Oyster cards.

That may be the technical explanation (and it came up in here years
ago when the Oyster attachments were first installed), but for a
normal person who is simply using the gates, they get a consistent
indication that "red means ticket is OK".

Normal people not using Oyster need to look elsewhere for the
information they need.

The obvious place being the gates ahead of you - which open if the
ticket's OK. However, the lights are right next to the slot you put the
ticket into, and so are hard to miss.
--
Roland Perry

tfl fine - advice needed
 

Richard J. wrote on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
Iain Archer wrote:

From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:

What's the full URL of that file? I can't see it in the menus in the
"Tickets and Oyster" part of the TfL site.


Knew I should have quoted it in full.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...Your-guide-to-
Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf

at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...ster/guide.asp


It looks like something that should be sent to all new Oyster holders.
I bought online an Oyster card with Pre-Pay and Auto top-up, and was
surprised that it arrived through the post with no guidance on its use
whatever.

I've recently done the same thing. Even with the on-line help pages,
etc, I still had to seek their email advice about getting my auto top-up
initialised at Wimbledon without including a journey, and then a 1.10
refund afterward. And the more I got into it, the more klunks and gaps
in their information and other systems seemed to turn up for me to ask
or write about.
--
Iain Archer To email, please use Reply-To address

tfl fine - advice needed
 

Iain Archer wrote:
Richard J. wrote on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
Iain Archer wrote:

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...Your-guide-to-
Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf

at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...ster/guide.asp


It looks like something that should be sent to all new Oyster
holders. I bought online an Oyster card with Pre-Pay and Auto
top-up, and was surprised that it arrived through the post with no
guidance on its use whatever.

I've recently done the same thing. Even with the on-line help
pages, etc, I still had to seek their email advice about getting my
auto top-up initialised at Wimbledon without including a journey,
and then a 1.10 refund afterward. And the more I got into it, the
more klunks and gaps in their information and other systems seemed
to turn up for me to ask or write about.

I had a similar problem after a ticket clerk at Turnham Green insisted
that activating Auto Top-up would cause me to be charged £20 immediately
even though I had £20 already on the card. I had to send an email to
get a confirmation that that was wrong. But, like you, I still had to
activate Auto Top-up at a gate and then get £1.10 manually refunded
after more misunderstandings at the ticket counter.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

tfl fine - advice needed
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message , at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper
remarked:

No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it. She gambled
and lost. Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.

What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep, a
Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
these, then why are you doubting her.

If I place my Oyster on a reader and I don't get a green light, I'll
query it with the driver, regardless of whether it turns red, bleeps
the theme tune to 'Watchdog', or makes a cup of tea. What I won't do is
think, "Woo-hoo! Free journey!" and continue boarding. I doubt this
woman's story, because there are more holes in it than Swiss cheese.
She doggedly claims that the reader didn't tell her her card had
failed, but since she hasn't claimed that it indicated that it had been
successfully read, then obviously it didn't, and she knows it. Or is
totally stupid.

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In message .com,
writes
She doggedly claims that the reader didn't tell her her card had
failed, but since she hasn't claimed that it indicated that it had been
successfully read, then obviously it didn't, and she knows it. Or is
totally stupid.
If you're in a long queue and the bus is filling fast with a lot of
people with both travel cards and oysters it can be misleading at times
and the little green light can easily be obscured by another passenger.
--
Clive

tfl fine - advice needed
 

snip

Thinking of this, what legislation allows them to take someone to court
over non-payment of bus fares?
Judging by the OP, it seems like a criminal rather than a civil matter.
--
Joe Patrick
Railways Online - for GB railway news, information & photos
http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk

tfl fine - advice needed
 

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 16:17:00 +0000, Clive
wrote:

In message .com,
writes
She doggedly claims that the reader didn't tell her her card had
failed, but since she hasn't claimed that it indicated that it had been
successfully read, then obviously it didn't, and she knows it. Or is
totally stupid.
If you're in a long queue and the bus is filling fast with a lot of
people with both travel cards and oysters it can be misleading at times
and the little green light can easily be obscured by another passenger.

Yeah, sure. Only if she was reaching round someone else and waving it
where she thought the reader was. In which case, we're back to
stupidity again.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

Another Oyster Question (was tfl fine - advice needed)
 

Iain Archer wrote:

Knew I should have quoted it in full.

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...Your-guide-to-
Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf

at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...ster/guide.asp



Is it necessary to do something when interchanging between LU services
outside the zone in which the travel card is valid?

For instance if I were travelling from Wembley Park (zone 4) to Sudbury
Hill (zone 4) via Rayners Lane (zone 5) and had a zones 1-4 card would I
need to touch my Oyster to something at Rayners lane.

The guide cited by Iain states:

"When transferring between Tube, DLR, Tramlink or National Rail
services, always touch your Oyster card on a card reader at the
interchange station or on the tram stop platform before boarding."

however in this case I would not be transferring between Tube and any of
these other modes of transport so it would not seem to be required. A
view supported by the fact I've never been able to find any interchange
touch points at Rayners Lane. However I seem to recall hearing
otherwise somewhere.





--
To contact me take a davidhowdon and add a @yahoo.co.uk to the end.

Another Oyster Question (was tfl fine - advice needed)
 

On Mon, 31 Oct 2005 21:54:49 GMT, David Howdon
wrote:

For instance if I were travelling from Wembley Park (zone 4) to Sudbury
Hill (zone 4) via Rayners Lane (zone 5) and had a zones 1-4 card would I
need to touch my Oyster to something at Rayners lane.

No.

AFAIK, the system looks up in a big table that tells it that a journey
from Wembley Park to Sudbury Hill involves travelling through zones 4
and 5. It would charge the single zone extension fare appropriately.
(In fact, even if you went via zone 1 and didn't pass through zone 5,
it would still charge you the extension for the same zones 4 & 5
journey.)

tfl fine - advice needed
 

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 14:47:58 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

My observations are that the green light comes on when you use an
Oyster, the red one when you use a paper ticket. The paper ticket is
valid, so "red means valid".

"Gate opening" means valid!

tfl fine - advice needed
 

In message , at 12:18:07 on
Tue, 1 Nov 2005, Laurence Payne
remarked:
My observations are that the green light comes on when you use an
Oyster, the red one when you use a paper ticket. The paper ticket is
valid, so "red means valid".

"Gate opening" means valid!

Do keep up, I've already mentioned that!
--
Roland Perry