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tfl fine - advice needed

On Sun, 30 Oct 2005 12:39:33 +0000, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at 11:14:55 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper
remarked:
No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it. She gambled
and lost. Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading. The comparison, therefore, if
perfectly valid. Unless she is completely stupid, she will have known
full well that she didn't pay to get on the bus.

Green light = You've paid; carry on boarding.
Red light = You've not paid (for whatever reason); re-touch or query
with driver.
No response = You've not paid; re-touch or query with driver.

It's hardly rocket science, is it?

(Does anyone else think it's odd that tube gates "acknowledge" the
receipt of a paper ticket by putting on a red, or is it orange, light?
So passengers begin to associate success with that.)

Presumed innocent until the case has come to court, eh?

Prseumed stupid in this case, more like.

Until you've heard the facts, not some garbled reporting of
pseudo-facts, you have no idea.

On the contrary, I am basing my judgement on what was so obviously
_not_ reported in the inevitably pro-(this particular)passenger,
anti-TfL version in the 'Standard': "[She] insisted she had passed her
card over the reader and neither the machine nor the driver warned her
that the payment had apparently failed." What is absent, of course,
is any claim that the machine acknowledged a successful payment, which
would probably be a bluff to far, even for her.
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

tfl fine - advice needed

In message , at
20:16:00 on Sun, 30 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
Passenger A inserts paper ticket. Oyster light goes red

But Colin says this is no longer the case. When was the change made?
I've used almost 100% Oyster for the last year, so am not in a
position to comment.

See my other reply.

Thanks for getting back on this. It's confusing, isn't it?
--
Roland Perry

tfl fine - advice needed

In message , at
01:21:00 on Mon, 31 Oct 2005, Colin Rosenstiel
remarked:
TBH, not being an Oyster user I hadn't even noticed. My attention has
always been on the bit relevant to me. As has been explained to you, the
red light doesn't mean go, it means the Oyster reader is not ready to
read Oyster cards.

That may be the technical explanation (and it came up in here years ago
when the Oyster attachments were first installed), but for a normal
person who is simply using the gates, they get a consistent indication
that "red means ticket is OK".
--
Roland Perry

tfl fine - advice needed

In message , at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper
remarked:

No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it. She gambled
and lost. Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.

What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep, a
Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
these, then why are you doubting her.

Had she been paying the driver, she would have got a different kind of
failure notification - like still having the money in her hand, for
example.

--
Roland Perry

tfl fine - advice needed

Roland Perry wrote on Mon, 31 Oct 2005
In message , at 20:32:32 on Sun, 30
Oct 2005, Nick Cooper
remarked:

No, she made the fatal mistake of not having enough Prepay on her
Oyster card, and then boarding despite the card reader on the bus not
giving her a green light and the driver not noticing it. She gambled
and lost. Just like you.

Or she might not have noticed the reader on the bus not giving her a
green light.

Which is akin to her offering cash to the driver and "not noticing"
when he doesn't take it because he's looking elsewhere/dealing with
another passenger. Would she have then been right to continue
boarding, rather than quierying the situation with the driver?

Completely different situation. Especially the amount and style of
feedback to the passenger.

Even the passenger is not claiming that she got a green light to
signify a valid reading, rather she is claiming that she didn't get an
acknowledgement of an _invalid_ reading.

What would an "invalid" indication be, then? A different kind of beep,
a Red light, or something like that? If she says she didn't get one of
these, then why are you doubting her.

Had she been paying the driver, she would have got a different kind of
failure notification - like still having the money in her hand, for
example.

From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:

"+ Touch in and touch out. At Tube and National Rail stations,
always touch your Oyster card on a card reader at the start and
end of your journey .....

"On Tube, DLR and National Rail, card readers normally show an
orange light. When you touch your Oyster card on the card reader
the light should turn green. If it doesn't, try again. If you
still fail to get a green light, or if it turns red, see a member
of staff. If none are available at the start of your journey, see
a member of staff as soon as possible.

"+ Touch in. On buses, always touch your Oyster card flat on the
card reader by the driver at the front of the bus as you board or,
where indicated on bendy-buses, on the reader by any door. On
buses with conductors, when asked, you must touch your Oyster
card on the card reader on his/her ticket machine.

"If the driver/conductor advises you that there is a problem with
your Oyster card, you will need to pay a cash fare for your
journey either on the bus or, where cash fares are not accepted
on the bus, from the nearest roadside ticket machine. You should
then contact the Oyster helpline on 0845 330 9876 for assistance
on what to do next."

Perhaps they should have said something about the passenger's
responsibility to check the lights when using an Oyster on a bus.
But they clearly haven't. They mention only the driver's
responsibility to check.
--
Iain Archer

tfl fine - advice needed

Iain Archer wrote:

From Your-guide-to_Oyster-2005-02-27.pdf:

What's the full URL of that file? I can't see it in the menus in the
"Tickets and Oyster" part of the TfL site.

It looks like something that should be sent to all new Oyster holders.
I bought online an Oyster card with Pre-Pay and Auto top-up, and was
surprised that it arrived through the post with no guidance on its use
whatever.
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

tfl fine - advice needed