About West London Tram
 

David Bradley wrote:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:12:17 -0000, wrote:

Now maybe you just happen to like bendy-buses with overhead power lines
for their own sake? But experience seems to show that simply sticking
bendy buses onto already overcrowded roads doesn't reduce congestion. I
don't see how they're going to fix that problem by just adding some ugly
power lines to the bus.

40 metre long trains, TWICE the length of bendybuses, running along Uxbridge
Road is really going to make a difference for the better or worse? Your call
to explain that one away.

Perhaps it is, but it doesn't alter the fact that you haven't answered
the question.

About West London Tram
 

David Bradley said:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:12:17 -0000, wrote:

David Bradley said


A trolleybus system does NOT need this destructive and largely
self-defeating road widening

But wouldn't the trolleybus STILL need road widening if it's to be
more than just another bendy-bus with added overhead power lines?

A false assumption.

Why? What's false about it? Speaking from congestion point of view,
what's going to magically stop this this trolleybus from being just
another bendy-bus with the novelty of overhead power lines? What's
going to make it solve traffic congestion better than all the other
bendy-buses out there?


Now maybe you just happen to like bendy-buses with overhead power
lines for their own sake? But experience seems to show that simply
sticking bendy buses onto already overcrowded roads doesn't reduce
congestion. I don't see how they're going to fix that problem by
just adding some ugly power lines to the bus.

40 metre long trains, TWICE the length of bendybuses, running along
Uxbridge Road is really going to make a difference for the better or
worse? Your call to explain that one away.

Trams running along the EXISTING Uxbridge Road would make things worse,
just as your electrical bendy-buses running along the existing Uxbridge
Road will make things worse.

Trams (or your electric bendy-buses, or whatever) running along the new,
improved WIDENED Uxbridge Road, won't because there will be more room
for them. That's why the road widening is the important thing, no
matter whether it's trams or trolleybuses that just happen to run in the
new lanes after they've been created.

About West London Tram
 

On 7 Nov 2005 07:23:36 -0800, wrote:

David Bradley wrote:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:12:17 -0000, wrote:

Now maybe you just happen to like bendy-buses with overhead power lines
for their own sake? But experience seems to show that simply sticking
bendy buses onto already overcrowded roads doesn't reduce congestion. I
don't see how they're going to fix that problem by just adding some ugly
power lines to the bus.

40 metre long trains, TWICE the length of bendybuses, running along Uxbridge
Road is really going to make a difference for the better or worse? Your call
to explain that one away.

Perhaps it is, but it doesn't alter the fact that you haven't answered
the question.

Well let's have a go then although I have never said anything about using
bendy trolleybuses although it's fair to assume that is what will be used.

TfL have evidently proposed tram segregation through various junctions in an
attempt to insulate the trams from junction congestion, whereas this is less
important for trolleybuses with their flexibility of manoeuvre and ability to
steer round obstructions. In any case, even if the needs and benefits were the
same for trams and trolleybuses once implemented, there remains
(1) the huge disparity in construction cost and time and related disruption as
between trams and trolleys, and
(2) the trolley advantage of getting the benefits of electric traction several
years earlier through much quicker construction and correspondingly earlier
opening date.

If there's to be no segregation and priority anywhere along the tramroute it's
hard to see what benefit a hugely expensive and disruptive tram scheme could
possibly have over a much cheaper and virtually disruption-free trolley
scheme, even ignoring the huge cost diffrential.

Considering the overhead aspect, a tramway service will use a pantagraph
system for current collection. The traction wires require to be at a
significant tension for the contact wire to be almost horizontal and there is
considerable upward pressure from the pantagraph itself. Such forces need
some quite chunky traction support post which are invarably girders and
horizontal "scaffolding poles" as the primary support. Hardly asthetically
pleasing and yet it seems to be acceptable because it is a tramway.

On the otherhand trolleybus current collection methods use twin booms wich are
more tollorant of the contact wires which are at a lower tension than that for
a tramway. Consequently lighter traction support poles can be used. The
amount of actual wiring in the sky is not significantly different between
either system.

There are huge benefits from having electric buses instead of diesel buses
that more than outweigh the visual intrusion of overhead wiring and booms on
the top of vehicles, most of which are attributed to tramway operation.
However if your desire is to have diesel trams, so be it and sod the
enviroment.

Now it's about time you made your position clear of which mode of transport
you prefer and why.

David Bradley

About West London Tram
 

In article ,
writes
Trams running along the EXISTING Uxbridge Road would make things worse,
just as your electrical bendy-buses running along the existing Uxbridge
Road will make things worse.

Trams (or your electric bendy-buses, or whatever) running along the new,
improved WIDENED Uxbridge Road, won't because there will be more room
for them. That's why the road widening is the important thing, no
matter whether it's trams or trolleybuses that just happen to run in the
new lanes after they've been created.

So let's put bendy buses, or routemasters, or whatever, in the lanes.
Or maybe even trolleybuses. All much cheaper and more flexible than
trams.
--
Thoss

About West London Tram
 

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:05:54 -0000, wrote:

David Bradley said:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:12:17 -0000, wrote:

David Bradley said


A trolleybus system does NOT need this destructive and largely
self-defeating road widening

But wouldn't the trolleybus STILL need road widening if it's to be
more than just another bendy-bus with added overhead power lines?

A false assumption.

Why? What's false about it? Speaking from congestion point of view,
what's going to magically stop this this trolleybus from being just
another bendy-bus with the novelty of overhead power lines? What's
going to make it solve traffic congestion better than all the other
bendy-buses out there?


Now maybe you just happen to like bendy-buses with overhead power
lines for their own sake? But experience seems to show that simply
sticking bendy buses onto already overcrowded roads doesn't reduce
congestion. I don't see how they're going to fix that problem by
just adding some ugly power lines to the bus.

40 metre long trains, TWICE the length of bendybuses, running along
Uxbridge Road is really going to make a difference for the better or
worse? Your call to explain that one away.

Trams running along the EXISTING Uxbridge Road would make things worse,
just as your electrical bendy-buses running along the existing Uxbridge
Road will make things worse.

Trams (or your electric bendy-buses, or whatever) running along the new,
improved WIDENED Uxbridge Road, won't because there will be more room
for them. That's why the road widening is the important thing, no
matter whether it's trams or trolleybuses that just happen to run in the
new lanes after they've been created.


My response to your posting would be tailored to whether you are in favour of
the tram or not. Which is it please?

David Bradley

About West London Tram
 

David Bradley wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:05:54 -0000, wrote:

David Bradley said:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:12:17 -0000, wrote:

David Bradley said


A trolleybus system does NOT need this destructive and largely
self-defeating road widening

But wouldn't the trolleybus STILL need road widening if it's to be
more than just another bendy-bus with added overhead power lines?

A false assumption.

Why? What's false about it? Speaking from congestion point of view,
what's going to magically stop this this trolleybus from being just
another bendy-bus with the novelty of overhead power lines? What's
going to make it solve traffic congestion better than all the other
bendy-buses out there?


Now maybe you just happen to like bendy-buses with overhead power
lines for their own sake? But experience seems to show that simply
sticking bendy buses onto already overcrowded roads doesn't reduce
congestion. I don't see how they're going to fix that problem by
just adding some ugly power lines to the bus.

40 metre long trains, TWICE the length of bendybuses, running along
Uxbridge Road is really going to make a difference for the better or
worse? Your call to explain that one away.

Trams running along the EXISTING Uxbridge Road would make things
worse,
just as your electrical bendy-buses running along the existing
Uxbridge
Road will make things worse.

Trams (or your electric bendy-buses, or whatever) running along the
new, improved WIDENED Uxbridge Road, won't because there will be
more room
for them. That's why the road widening is the important thing, no
matter whether it's trams or trolleybuses that just happen to run in
the
new lanes after they've been created.


My response to your posting would be tailored to whether you are in
favour of the tram or not. Which is it please?

How can one decide if one is in favour of a scheme until one has explored
all the options?

About West London Tram
 

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 22:42:59 +0000 (UTC), "Brimstone"
wrote:

David Bradley wrote:
On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 19:05:54 -0000, wrote:

David Bradley said:

On Mon, 7 Nov 2005 11:12:17 -0000, wrote:

David Bradley said


A trolleybus system does NOT need this destructive and largely
self-defeating road widening

But wouldn't the trolleybus STILL need road widening if it's to be
more than just another bendy-bus with added overhead power lines?

A false assumption.

Why? What's false about it? Speaking from congestion point of view,
what's going to magically stop this this trolleybus from being just
another bendy-bus with the novelty of overhead power lines? What's
going to make it solve traffic congestion better than all the other
bendy-buses out there?


Now maybe you just happen to like bendy-buses with overhead power
lines for their own sake? But experience seems to show that simply
sticking bendy buses onto already overcrowded roads doesn't reduce
congestion. I don't see how they're going to fix that problem by
just adding some ugly power lines to the bus.

40 metre long trains, TWICE the length of bendybuses, running along
Uxbridge Road is really going to make a difference for the better or
worse? Your call to explain that one away.

Trams running along the EXISTING Uxbridge Road would make things
worse,
just as your electrical bendy-buses running along the existing
Uxbridge
Road will make things worse.

Trams (or your electric bendy-buses, or whatever) running along the
new, improved WIDENED Uxbridge Road, won't because there will be
more room
for them. That's why the road widening is the important thing, no
matter whether it's trams or trolleybuses that just happen to run in
the
new lanes after they've been created.


My response to your posting would be tailored to whether you are in
favour of the tram or not. Which is it please?

How can one decide if one is in favour of a scheme until one has explored
all the options?


There's five possible answers to the question:
1) Yes
2) No
3) Don't Know
4) Don't care
5) Something else [and what would that be?]

Depending on the answer I will respond accordingly.

Another question for you. How do you explore ALL the options when information
from official sources is held back - where does that leave you in deciding if
you are in favour of the scheme or otherwise?

I am not the font of all knowledge on this issue but I have carried out a
considerable amount of research on the proposed west London tramway based upon
information that is in the public domain. I am not alone to discover the good,
bad and really ugly aspects of the scheme and have pooled the information with
other researchers. This pooled knowledged is in the process of being place on
a web site www.tfwl.org.uk. Do check it out to help you decide which side of
the fence you are on.

Personally I think the billon pounds that the tramway scheme will cost,
perhaps even more, would be better spent on other public transport
improvements over a wider area of London. Quality, efficient public transport
has to be provided as the number of vehicles wishing to use a given road space
simply won't fit. Making roads wider is only a very short term solution but
the loss of interesting buildings that make up the character of a locality are
lost for ever to create this 'extra' road space.

Of course you can have your own view point on this matter but to get anything
meaningful out of a discussion you have to join in without holding your cards
so close to your chest that even you do not know what your opinion is.

David Bradley

About West London Tram
 

In message , David Bradley
writes
the good, bad and really ugly
I don't think this is unbiased by any means.
--
Clive

About West London Tram
 

David Bradley said:


My response to your posting would be tailored to whether you are in
favour of the tram or not. Which is it please?


Neither. I'm completely neutral on the subject, since I've never been
to the Uxbridge Road and have no plans for going there in the
foreseeable future.

I'm simply asking out of curiosity because I'm genuinely puzzled by your
claim that congestion there will be solved by more buses but only if
they just happen to be powered by overhead electrical cables.

Most bendybuses can't manoeuvre easily on crowded roads anyway, and my
limited experience of travelling on trolleybuses in Shanghai suggests
that they're even LESS manoeuvrable than regular diesel buses because
swerving at high speed can shake the poles loose from the wires.

So I really am curious why you think they would be a good solution. (I
guess it's just the puzzle of trying to get inside someone's mind and
trying to see what makes him tick, especially when his opinions are so
different from everyone else's.))

--

About West London Tram
 

On Tue, 8 Nov 2005 00:14:25 +0000, Clive wrote:

In message , David Bradley
writes
the good, bad and really ugly
I don't think this is unbiased by any means.

OK what would you like to appear that redresses your thoughts on this matter?
The site is still under construction and I am quite happy to take on board
suggestions made by visitors.

David Bradley