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About West London Tram
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 12:38:31 -0000, wrote:
David, did you see my post? I'm repeating it here for you, just in case you missed it. I thought that the time had actually come to draw in line in the sand over the exchanges made at uk.transport.london and the only reason I kept it going for so long is that Internet searches on the West London Tram would reveal discussions going on in this backwater. However it seem no matter how much I dot the eyes or cross the tees it never seems to be enough to satisfy some people that are sceptical that a trolleybus solution can deliver any real benefits. I thought it would be reasonably easy to respond to the issues raised by you but found myself very quickly bogged down trying to provide bullet point replies. All I could manage was several paragraphs before getting a headache, but you might as well get the feel of what might have been said in a longer reply. If there is going to be street based public transport along the Uxbridge Road and the tram scheme can't get funded then what's left to provide the public transport provision in the area? Making suggestions that there are old railway alignments that could be used for a tram scheme when oddly no one else seems to identified their potential before now, still ignores the fact that street running will still be required with all the attendant problems of slotting trains onto an urban road which is barely wide enough in places to allow buses to pass. Without substantial property demolition at pinch points, it is impossible to give trams priority over other traffic, including BUSES with passengers who have destinations that the tram does not serve. Concepts of ideas that are dreamt up in a couple of minutes do not stack up when you pour over the detail in the ensuing days, weeks and months. There is a team of transport professions and engineers working at TfL on this [ill fated] tramway and there is no sign of them shutting up shop on a job that has at least completed the design phase. It is naïve to suggest that congestion can be reduced, or even eliminated, along the length and breadth of one artially roadway, without applying traffic management schemes and improvements at least in the immediate vicinity of the Uxbridge Road corridor and perhaps a much wider area beyond. You also can't improve public transport provisions London wide if a single [tramway] scheme absorbs so much money that there is next to nothing left in the kitty. What IS special about West London is that it is where this prestige project will [perhaps] be built; the rest of London is earmarked for nothing more spectacular than what is in place already. How you even start to improve perceptions of public transport by do nothing is certainly a neat trick that has yet to see the light of day. It is certainly not going to impress anyone using a car to think 'I must catch the bus / tram / train next time'. If we say a trolleybus option is better than a tram, then we have arrived at that conclusion by considerable research into TfL's tram scheme. We have examine many documents in the public domain against our own very detailed analysis of trolleybus operations created by a team of transit professionals who are sympathetic to this mode of transit. A false assumption was made by you that we did neither. I don't wish to get bogged down in dealing with what are, for the most part, poorly though out or ill informed criticisms of trolleybus alternatives for WLT that frequently seem to go over again and again, much the same ground. And there are so many subtle 'inversions' in your posting e.g. where we said "As the design of WLT as a tramway does not integrate bus stops with trams stops …." Your response was "I would hope that whatever mode of WLT is chosen, it wouldn't integrate its stops with bus stops. Keeping them separate would help establish it in the public's imagination as something new and different. This will help stimulate their curiosity more than just the same old bus routes calling at the same old bus stops but with added overhead cables." Taking this text alone I assume you intended to throw the baby out with the bathwater by not even trying to have an integrated public transport system. Trying to deal rationally with this sort of exchanges is just going to be an endless task and quite frankly I would much prefer to spend my time more productively in producing pages for www.tfwl.org.uk - a site that has quickly established itself to have exceptional credibility and well thought out responses to the avalanche of misinformation that is circulating to make it appear that the West London Tramway is the best thing since sliced bread. Just follow what is going on there and you will learn so much more. David Bradley [snip] |
About West London Tram
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:26:22 +0000, David Bradley
wrote: Unlike pro tram supporters and the green element, we do not duck and dive from any issues raised; On the contrary, that's exactly what you've been doing. But to speciffically answer your question here as to whether a trolleybus alone is the magic bullet that solves traffic congestion That wasn't the question. The question was, how will a trolleybus reduce traffic congestion more than a similarly-sized diesel bus? |
About West London Tram
David Bradley wrote:
Trying to deal rationally with this sort of exchanges is just going to be an endless task and quite frankly I would much prefer to spend my time more productively in producing pages for www.tfwl.org.uk - a site that has quickly established itself to have exceptional credibility and well thought out responses to the avalanche of misinformation that is circulating to make it appear that the West London Tramway is the best thing since sliced bread. With whom has it "quickly established itself to have exceptional credibility and well thought out responses"? Where is the evidence to support this assertion? |
About West London Tram
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 00:54:08 +0000, asdf wrote:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:26:22 +0000, David Bradley wrote: Unlike pro tram supporters and the green element, we do not duck and dive from any issues raised; On the contrary, that's exactly what you've been doing. Simply not true, I repeated return here to pick up on any points raised. But to speciffically answer your question here as to whether a trolleybus alone is the magic bullet that solves traffic congestion That wasn't the question. The question was, how will a trolleybus reduce traffic congestion more than a similarly-sized diesel bus? Let me spell it out again for you what I have said previously. Sticking a couple of poles on the top of a bus and stringing up overhead wires obviously won't make one ioata of difference to the congestion problems along the Uxbridge Road assuming that was all that was done. Our proposals go much deeply than that but clearly you are not interested in the detail. You can't consider one aspect in isolation and then rubbish the entire concept. Clearly you have a solution that you feel WILL work, so stop hiding behind a bush and come out and tell us all what that is. David Bradley |
About West London Tram
On 12 Nov 2005 18:19:07 -0800, wrote:
David Bradley wrote: Trying to deal rationally with this sort of exchanges is just going to be an endless task and quite frankly I would much prefer to spend my time more productively in producing pages for www.tfwl.org.uk - a site that has quickly established itself to have exceptional credibility and well thought out responses to the avalanche of misinformation that is circulating to make it appear that the West London Tramway is the best thing since sliced bread. With whom has it "quickly established itself to have exceptional credibility and well thought out responses"? Where is the evidence to support this assertion? uk.transport.london is not the entire world and its readership does not appear to be populated with professionals from the transport industry. It is to that group of people that I ascribe my comments. Exactly what evidence do you wish me to produce? Do you have anything to suggest that might be an improvement for public transport users or are you just there to whinge and moan? David Bradley |
About West London Tram
David Bradley said:
I thought that the time had actually come to draw in line in the sand over the exchanges made at uk.transport.london and the only reason I kept it going for so long is that Internet searches on the West London Tram would reveal discussions going on in this backwater. Charming. However it seem no matter how much I dot the eyes or cross the tees it never seems to be enough to satisfy some people that are sceptical that a trolleybus solution can deliver any real benefits. And what does that suggest about your trolleybus solution? Maybe the situation is more complex than your claims that "All trolleybuses are good" would suggest? I thought it would be reasonably easy to respond to the issues raised by you but found myself very quickly bogged down trying to provide bullet point replies. All I could manage was several paragraphs before getting a headache Yes, well, the real world is more complicated than your "Trolleybuses are always good" mantra. I'm sorry if that gives you a headache, but it can't be helped. If there is going to be street based public transport along the Uxbridge Road Ah, that is a very big "if". Why should we restrict ourselves to only considering "street based public transport along the Uxbridge Road"? Instead, we could use our imaginations and creativity to come up with approaches that are totally different. If we say a trolleybus option is better than a tram, then we have arrived at that conclusion by considerable research into TfL's tram scheme. Take care you don't fall into what boffins call "the Fallacy of Induction". Just because *a* trolleybus scheme is better than *a* tram scheme, you can't always assume that all trolleybus schemes are better than all tram schemes. Your response was "I would hope that whatever mode of WLT is chosen, it wouldn't integrate its stops with bus stops. Keeping them separate would help establish it in the public's imagination as something new and different. This will help stimulate their curiosity more than just the same old bus routes calling at the same old bus stops but with added overhead cables." Taking this text alone I assume you intended to throw the baby out with the bathwater by not even trying to have an integrated public transport system. Not at all. I just have a different perception of "integrated" than you. After all, you don't expect buses to stop at the platforms in railway stations, do you? They stop on the street outside. And in, for example, Euston station, the mainline trains don't share the same platforms as the tube trains. (Heck, even the Northern Line branches don't stop at the same platforms as each other.) Does this mean they aren't "integrated" in your book? |
About West London Tram
David Bradley said:
On 12 Nov 2005 18:19:07 -0800, wrote: David Bradley wrote: www.tfwl.org.uk - a site that has quickly established itself to have exceptional credibility and well thought out responses With whom has it "quickly established itself to have exceptional credibility and well thought out responses"? Where is the evidence to support this assertion? uk.transport.london is not the entire world and its readership does not appear to be populated with professionals from the transport industry. It is to that group of people that I ascribe my comments. Exactly what evidence do you wish me to produce? Do you have anything to suggest that might be an improvement for public transport users or are you just there to whinge and moan? You still haven't answered Kev's question: "Where is the evidence to support this assertion?" |
About West London Tram
asdf said:
On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:26:22 +0000, David Bradley wrote: Unlike pro tram supporters and the green element, we do not duck and dive from any issues raised; On the contrary, that's exactly what you've been doing. But to speciffically answer your question here as to whether a trolleybus alone is the magic bullet that solves traffic congestion That wasn't the question. The question was, how will a trolleybus reduce traffic congestion more than a similarly-sized diesel bus? I'm beginning to suspect that David is a troll or a fanatic (or both). Either way, he isn't capable of giving a simple answer to a simple question. I shall just killfile his ramblings in future. |
About West London Tram
On Sun, 13 Nov 2005 10:16:20 -0000, wrote:
asdf said: On Sat, 12 Nov 2005 23:26:22 +0000, David Bradley wrote: Unlike pro tram supporters and the green element, we do not duck and dive from any issues raised; On the contrary, that's exactly what you've been doing. But to speciffically answer your question here as to whether a trolleybus alone is the magic bullet that solves traffic congestion That wasn't the question. The question was, how will a trolleybus reduce traffic congestion more than a similarly-sized diesel bus? I'm beginning to suspect that David is a troll or a fanatic (or both). Either way, he isn't capable of giving a simple answer to a simple question. I shall just killfile his ramblings in future. How plain do you want the answer? I said that it won't make one ioata of a difference. If that is not a simple enough answer, then what is? David Bradley |
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