Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article , Colin
McKenzie writes

But I'm not sure there's any actual UK evidence that trams attract
more people out of cars than trolleybuses - how would you obtain it?

Again, IIRC, when Tramlink opened the shopping centre in Croydon saw
something like a 30% increase in visitors with a *decrease* in parking.

Yes, granted - but we don't know what would have happened with a
trolleybus scheme - it might have been even better. Unfortunately for
science, I can't see a tram and trolleybus route being introduced
simultaneously in comparable locations to allow the direct comparison.

You could always promote trolleybuses as trackless trams.

Colin McKenzie

On 29 Oct 2005 10:17:18 -0700, "Boltar" wrote:

Of course if it had been a new road scheme then they'd
probably be rubbing their hands with glee as all the Fulham
tractors would be able to get that little bit quicker to harrods.

It is worth stressing that a trolleybus scheme would require far more
minimalist (and much shorter-lived) construction compound facilities,

Trolleybuses have an image problem. The public would
probably just see them as another bus.
When Ken was running his fuel cell buses the other year I
didn't notice them packed to the rafters with happy eco
commuters. Trams though tend to get much more ridership
than a buses ever would - witness whats happened elsewhere
around the country particularly Nottingham. Would a trolleybus do the
same? Maybe for a short time for the
novelty value , but long term I doubt it. At the end of
the day they're just another uncomfortable , small capacity
(compared to a tram) bus albeit an electric one.

B2003

A number of issues to pick up on this thread that require a response so I'll
deal with these one at a time over the next few days. First of all this so
called image problem of trolleybuses. Just because we do not have any
trolleybuses in the UK, yet, it is a misconception that there is no "good
feel" factor aboyt this type of vehicle.

In Arnhem [olland] he transport operators have seen ridership increases in the
order of 17% on routes converted from diesels on a "like-for-like" basis. When
their 5 year "Trolley 2000" is completed the strategy is expected to see
passenger levels 21% higher than it would have been under the best type of
diesel buses. In Salzburg, Austria ridership increases have been 16% and the
city has recently started a similar trolleybus expansion which will include
several brand new trolleybus routes (one of which will be an express service
with the overhead wiring configured for overtaking) and converting several
more diesel routes to electric operation. These plans will mean that within
two years Salzburg will have achieved an almost total elimination of fossil
fuel powered buses from its streets.

Increases in ridership have also been noted in the USA, for instance Seattle
and San Francisco where experiences have been even more significant because
not only has it been found that electric buses will attract more passengers
than the diesels but also that replacing electric buses with diesels (even
temporarily) can lead to passengers pro-actively choosing to avoid the buses!

But then we are falling into the trap of only considering the vehicle as if
the trolleybus was nothing more than a bus requiring an external electricity
supply. A tramway, rather than a tram, is considered as a whole project with
high quality stops, traffic priorities, segregated lanes (where practicable)
etc. and therefore the term "trolleyway" should be used to indicate that the
same features are also provided, thus giving a step change in transit
provision and the "wow" factor that you seem to crave. Trackwork and
underground services diversions cost an absolute fortune for a tramway
schemes, an expense not necessary for trolleybuses.

25m long tri-axle trolleybuses run in Europe and can carry around 200
passengers, the use of such vehicles is currently not permitted in the UK but
there is no reason to believe that an application to run such vehicles here
would be refused. Capacity can be provided to meet demand through the use of
trolleybuses and they have better comfort levels than a any tram. Furthmore,
street running trams that don't have an exclusive use of the roadway will be
prone to more delays than the equivalent trolleybus.

Open your eyes and see the possabilities that trolleybuses provide at a
fraction of the cost of a tramway scheme. In europe they have, and are
reaping the benefits NOW. With no new tramway construction underway in the
UK, and unlikely to be for may years to come, if at all, there is only one
thing to look forward to, just more pollution with everyone getting nowhere
fast.

David Bradley

"David Bradley" wrote in message
...

MAJOR SNIP

Open your eyes and see the possabilities that trolleybuses provide at a
fraction of the cost of a tramway scheme. In europe they have, and are
reaping the benefits NOW. With no new tramway construction underway in
the
UK, and unlikely to be for may years to come, if at all, there is only one
thing to look forward to, just more pollution with everyone getting
nowhere
fast.
David Bradley

The system in use in Nancy is a combination of tram and trolleybus. They
look like trams, with two or three articulated units, but are guided by a
slot in the road (could be a painted-on stripe ?) and can, if necessary, be
steered by the driver. They have two trolley poles, run on pneumatic tyres
and are capable of climbing steep inclines.
In my view the best possible combination of features.
Cheerz,
Baz

I'm not sure why you deserve a response, given the standard of English
in that last sentence, but it's probably because they are the very
people in Southall whose welfare you were concerned about in your
previous post, all of 21 minutes earlier. Remember?

Never heard of a typo? And my god , what a patronising reply
for the people of Southall. You ever been there? I have on
numerous occasions and I've never met anyone there who
couldn't speak English. The only people who can't be
bothered to learn the language are the ones who really don't
give a toss about this country but just use the place as a
convenient location to wash up in. So **** them and their
opinions and TfL should not have wasted money translating
into 11 languages. Same goes for my local council and its
endless PC efforts in all its hopeless multi ligual booklets.

B2003

Marratxi wrote:
"David Bradley" wrote in message
...

MAJOR SNIP

Open your eyes and see the possabilities that trolleybuses provide at a
fraction of the cost of a tramway scheme. In europe they have, and are
reaping the benefits NOW. With no new tramway construction underway in
the
UK, and unlikely to be for may years to come, if at all, there is only one
thing to look forward to, just more pollution with everyone getting
nowhere
fast.
David Bradley

The system in use in Nancy is a combination of tram and trolleybus. They
look like trams, with two or three articulated units, but are guided by a
slot in the road (could be a painted-on stripe ?) and can, if necessary, be
steered by the driver. They have two trolley poles, run on pneumatic tyres
and are capable of climbing steep inclines.
In my view the best possible combination of features.
Cheerz,
Baz

Not everyone agrees that it is "the best possible combination of
features". I don't have any particular opinion on the matter, but
these people seem pretty anti:

http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_ncy001.htm

Regards,

Sid

Colin McKenzie wrote:
Clive D. W. Feather wrote:

In article ,
Colin McKenzie writes


But I'm not sure there's any actual UK evidence that trams attract
more people out of cars than trolleybuses - how would you obtain it?


Again, IIRC, when Tramlink opened the shopping centre in Croydon saw
something like a 30% increase in visitors with a *decrease* in parking.


Yes, granted - but we don't know what would have happened with a
trolleybus scheme - it might have been even better. Unfortunately for
science, I can't see a tram and trolleybus route being introduced
simultaneously in comparable locations to allow the direct comparison.

You could always promote trolleybuses as trackless trams.

Indeed, memory suggests that in parts of the US (Philadelphia spring to
mind) they are sometimes called "trackless trolleys" where "trolley" is
a common synonym for "streetcar" or "tram" (for those of us brought up
that side of the atlantic in the last 40 years, we all remember Mr.
Rogers' Trolley).

Robin

wrote in message
oups.com...

Marratxi wrote:
"David Bradley" wrote in message
...

MAJOR SNIP

Open your eyes and see the possabilities that trolleybuses provide at
a
fraction of the cost of a tramway scheme. In europe they have, and
are
reaping the benefits NOW. With no new tramway construction underway
in
the
UK, and unlikely to be for may years to come, if at all, there is only
one
thing to look forward to, just more pollution with everyone getting
nowhere
fast.
David Bradley

The system in use in Nancy is a combination of tram and trolleybus. They
look like trams, with two or three articulated units, but are guided by
a
slot in the road (could be a painted-on stripe ?) and can, if necessary,
be
steered by the driver. They have two trolley poles, run on pneumatic
tyres
and are capable of climbing steep inclines.
In my view the best possible combination of features.
Cheerz,
Baz

Not everyone agrees that it is "the best possible combination of
features". I don't have any particular opinion on the matter, but
these people seem pretty anti:
http://www.lightrailnow.org/features/f_ncy001.htm
Regards,
Sid

Possibly somewhat slanted article from Light Rail Now (hint) and dated back
in 2001. When I saw them last year they appeared to be running well and if,
as somebody previously suggested, they could be made to follow a painted
stripe on the road rather than a slot in the road that would reduce costs
considerably.
Cheerz,
Baz

"R.C. Payne" wrote in message
...

HUGE SNIP

Indeed, memory suggests that in parts of the US (Philadelphia spring to
mind) they are sometimes called "trackless trolleys" where "trolley" is
a common synonym for "streetcar" or "tram" (for those of us brought up
that side of the atlantic in the last 40 years, we all remember Mr.
Rogers' Trolley).
Robin

When, as a kid in the 1940s and 50s, I visited my grandmothers in Bradford
the trolleybuses were always referred to as tracklesses.
Baz

On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:58:36 -0000, "Marratxi"
wrote:


"R.C. Payne" wrote in message
...

HUGE SNIP

Indeed, memory suggests that in parts of the US (Philadelphia spring to
mind) they are sometimes called "trackless trolleys" where "trolley" is
a common synonym for "streetcar" or "tram" (for those of us brought up
that side of the atlantic in the last 40 years, we all remember Mr.
Rogers' Trolley).
Robin

When, as a kid in the 1940s and 50s, I visited my grandmothers in Bradford
the trolleybuses were always referred to as tracklesses.
Baz


This thread has prompted me to produce a web site on the 'issues'. Please
have a look at www.tfwl.co.uk

David Bradley

David Bradley wrote:
On Thu, 3 Nov 2005 00:58:36 -0000, "Marratxi"
wrote:


"R.C. Payne" wrote in message
...

HUGE SNIP

Indeed, memory suggests that in parts of the US (Philadelphia
spring to mind) they are sometimes called "trackless trolleys"
where "trolley" is a common synonym for "streetcar" or "tram" (for
those of us brought up that side of the atlantic in the last 40
years, we all remember Mr. Rogers' Trolley).
Robin

When, as a kid in the 1940s and 50s, I visited my grandmothers in
Bradford the trolleybuses were always referred to as tracklesses.
Baz


This thread has prompted me to produce a web site on the 'issues'.
Please have a look at www.tfwl.co.uk

I note you still haven't told us which "unique shopping outlets and
generally architecturally interesting and sound buildings" are kikely to be
demolished.