First Class in the South East
 

Why do some South Eastern operators, e.g. Thameslink and Southern have
First Class? Aside from the fact that the seating is not very differnt
to Standard (apart from Thameslink who at least have proper First Class
seats), there are never any ticket checks on board these trains so
First Class can become a free-for-all with no distinction between who
has a Standard ticket in First and who doesn't.

Just what is the logic behind offering First Class on suburban routes
in the London metropolis? Should they adopt the Chiltern route of
abolisihing First Class? I mean, look at the Silverlink County First
Class - it's rubbish!

First Class in the South East
 

On 7 Nov 2005 13:08:31 -0800, "Andrea" wrote:

Why do some South Eastern operators, e.g. Thameslink and Southern have
First Class? Aside from the fact that the seating is not very differnt
to Standard (apart from Thameslink who at least have proper First Class
seats), there are never any ticket checks on board these trains so

While rare, ticket checks are more common than never.

First Class can become a free-for-all with no distinction between who
has a Standard ticket in First and who doesn't.

Just what is the logic behind offering First Class on suburban routes
in the London metropolis?

Passengers are more likely to get a seat if they pay for first. In
some cases, first class may technically not exist when the trains are
being used on suburban routes.

Should they adopt the Chiltern route of
abolisihing First Class? I mean, look at the Silverlink County First
Class - it's rubbish!

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

First Class in the South East
 

On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 22:41:57 +0000, Arthur Figgis
] wrote:

Passengers are more likely to get a seat if they pay for first. In
some cases, first class may technically not exist when the trains are
being used on suburban routes.

Yes, that's an interesting point. The train I get to work on a Friday
(runs Victoria to London Bridge via Crystal Palace) is formed of
ex-Brighton Express stock (complete with First Class seating) but
AFAIK there are no first class fares available along that route, and
certainly not for my part of it.

Does that, therefore, mean that I am entitled to sit in the "First
Class" area with my Z1-3 Annual?

And what about on trains between London Bridge and Charing Cross that
have an origin/destination where first class fares are available?

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

First Class in the South East
 

SNOB !
"Andrea" wrote in message
oups.com...
Why do some South Eastern operators, e.g. Thameslink and Southern have
First Class? Aside from the fact that the seating is not very differnt
to Standard (apart from Thameslink who at least have proper First Class
seats), there are never any ticket checks on board these trains so
First Class can become a free-for-all with no distinction between who
has a Standard ticket in First and who doesn't.

Just what is the logic behind offering First Class on suburban routes
in the London metropolis? Should they adopt the Chiltern route of
abolisihing First Class? I mean, look at the Silverlink County First
Class - it's rubbish!

First Class in the South East
 

In message .com,
Andrea writes

Why do some South Eastern operators, e.g. Thameslink and Southern have
First Class? Aside from the fact that the seating is not very differnt
to Standard (apart from Thameslink who at least have proper First Class
seats),

The First Class accommodation on SWT is noticeably different to Standard
- wider seats (2+2 rather than 2+3), sockets for computers and phones,
individual reading lights, etc.

there are never any ticket checks on board these trains so
First Class can become a free-for-all with no distinction between who
has a Standard ticket in First and who doesn't.

I've certainly seen checks.

Just what is the logic behind offering First Class on suburban routes
in the London metropolis?

In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban routes
(the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast outer
suburban routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a limited
number of inner London stops. First class is usually provided only on
the latter - presumably because there is a demand for it.

--
Paul Terry

First Class in the South East
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message .com, Andrea
writes

In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban routes
(the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast outer suburban
routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a limited number of
inner London stops. First class is usually provided only on the latter -
presumably because there is a demand for it.

--
Paul Terry

On the Portsmouth line the first class is busy in the peaks to the point of
being full on some trains after Haslemere and ticket checks are the norm
towards London.

Paul

First Class in the South East
 

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message .com,
Andrea writes

Why do some South Eastern operators, e.g. Thameslink and Southern
have First Class? Aside from the fact that the seating is not very
differnt to Standard (apart from Thameslink who at least have proper
First Class seats),

The First Class accommodation on SWT is noticeably different to
Standard - wider seats (2+2 rather than 2+3), sockets for computers
and phones, individual reading lights, etc.

there are never any ticket checks on board these trains so
First Class can become a free-for-all with no distinction between who
has a Standard ticket in First and who doesn't.

I've certainly seen checks.

Just what is the logic behind offering First Class on suburban routes
in the London metropolis?

In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban
routes (the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast
outer suburban routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a
limited number of inner London stops. First class is usually provided
only on the latter - presumably because there is a demand for it.

South West Trains also has the more main line routes to Weymouth and
Portsmouth, not to mention Paignton via Salisbury and Exeter.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

First Class in the South East
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban routes
(the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast outer suburban
routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a limited number of
inner London stops. First class is usually provided only on the latter -
presumably because there is a demand for it.

--
Paul Terry

There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The first class
sections are declassified, and usually quite empty, because the majority of
passengers don't realise this.

Paul

First Class in the South East
 

In message , Paul
Scott writes

There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The first class
sections are declassified, and usually quite empty, because the majority of
passengers don't realise this.

Ah yes, you're right - but I think Reading trains on the same line still
have first class (thus adding yet further to the confusion, since if you
get on somewhere like Richmond you don't tend to think about whether the
train started from Reading or Windsor).

--
Paul Terry

First Class in the South East
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message .com,
Andrea writes

Just what is the logic behind offering First Class on suburban routes
in the London metropolis?

In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban routes
(the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast outer
suburban routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a limited
number of inner London stops. First class is usually provided only on
the latter - presumably because there is a demand for it.

Funny you should mention the Windsor line. The Windsor & Eaton train
via Whitton I get each morning & evening has a first class carriage, but
there is no first class service available on the train. So anyone can
sit in 1st class, but I think most people don't know this...

--
Paul

First Class in the South East
 

"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message , Paul Scott
writes

There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The first class
sections are declassified, and usually quite empty, because the majority
of
passengers don't realise this.

Ah yes, you're right - but I think Reading trains on the same line still
have first class (thus adding yet further to the confusion, since if you
get on somewhere like Richmond you don't tend to think about whether the
train started from Reading or Windsor).

--
Paul Terry

I wonder if it is a result of the Desiro 450 order being changed? Perhaps
the other Desiros would have been single class. As it is there must be a
number of routes where 450s are used on non first class services, I wonder
if anyone knows of any others? I'm sure some of the services through
Fareham are shown on the timetable posters as not having first class, but
all the actual units used have the seating now...

Paul

First Class in the South East
 

In message , Paul
Scott writes

I wonder if it is a result of the Desiro 450 order being changed?

I'm sure it is.

Perhaps the other Desiros would have been single class.

Yes - the original plan for suburban services was 2 x five-car units
without any first class accommodation. As I recall, the SRA wouldn't
agree to platform lengthening to allow 10-car trains, so instead SWT
bought more of the four-car units (with 1st class) already ordered for
outer suburban services.

(snip)

--
Paul Terry

First Class in the South East
 

Paul Scott wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...
In message ,
Paul Scott writes

There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The
first class sections are declassified, and usually quite empty,
because the majority of
passengers don't realise this.

Ah yes, you're right - but I think Reading trains on the same line
still have first class (thus adding yet further to the confusion,
since if you get on somewhere like Richmond you don't tend to
think about whether the train started from Reading or Windsor).

--
Paul Terry

I wonder if it is a result of the Desiro 450 order being changed?
Perhaps the other Desiros would have been single class. As it is
there must be a number of routes where 450s are used on non first
class services, I wonder if anyone knows of any others? I'm sure
some of the services through Fareham are shown on the timetable
posters as not having first class, but all the actual units used
have the seating now...

I wonder if use of Desiros on the Hounslow Loop services is temporary
pending refurbishment of all the (standard class only) 455s. Hope not!
--
Richard J.
(to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address)

First Class in the South East
 

Paul Scott wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...


In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban routes
(the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast outer suburban
routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a limited number of
inner London stops. First class is usually provided only on the latter -
presumably because there is a demand for it.

--
Paul Terry


There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The first class
sections are declassified, and usually quite empty, because the majority of
passengers don't realise this.

How is one supposed to know?

First Class in the South East
 

"Dave Newt" wrote in message
...
Paul Scott wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...


In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban routes
(the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast outer
suburban routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a limited
number of inner London stops. First class is usually provided only on the
latter - presumably because there is a demand for it.

--
Paul Terry


There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The first class
sections are declassified, and usually quite empty, because the majority
of passengers don't realise this.

How is one supposed to know?

Beats me. I noticed it in their magazine I think.

Paul

First Class in the South East
 

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 19:57:27 +0000, Dave Newt
wrote:

Paul Scott wrote:

There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The first class
sections are declassified, and usually quite empty, because the majority of
passengers don't realise this.

How is one supposed to know?

From the timetables, which (probably) show whether the train is
advertised as having first class.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

First Class in the South East
 

On 7 Nov 2005 13:08:31 -0800, "Andrea" wrote:

Should they adopt the Chiltern route of abolisihing First Class?

No, they should heed the words of Harry Perkins, MP, and abolish 2nd
Class!

--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

First Class in the South East
 

In article ,
(Paul Terry) wrote:

In message , Paul
Scott writes

I wonder if it is a result of the Desiro 450 order being changed?

I'm sure it is.

Perhaps the other Desiros would have been single class.

Yes - the original plan for suburban services was 2 x five-car units
without any first class accommodation. As I recall, the SRA wouldn't
agree to platform lengthening to allow 10-car trains, so instead SWT
bought more of the four-car units (with 1st class) already ordered
for outer suburban services.

(snip)

Some of which were diverted to the WCML as class 350.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

First Class in the South East
 

Paul Scott wrote:
"Dave Newt" wrote in message
...

Paul Scott wrote:
"Paul Terry" wrote in message
...

In the case of SWT, there is a distinction between true suburban routes
(the Hounslow and Kingston loops, for example) and semifast outer
suburban routes, such as the Windsor line, where there are a limited
number of inner London stops. First class is usually provided only on the
latter - presumably because there is a demand for it.

There is no first class on the Windsor service though,. The first class
sections are declassified, and usually quite empty, because the majority
of passengers don't realise this.

How is one supposed to know?

Beats me. I noticed it in their magazine I think.

That's where I read it.

I think I've seen something on the scrolling display on a train. It was
only a glance but it didn't seem to show it again (until I got bored).

--
Paul

First Class in the South East
 

In article , James Farrar
writes
AFAIK there are no first class fares available along that route, and
certainly not for my part of it.

Does that, therefore, mean that I am entitled to sit in the "First
Class" area with my Z1-3 Annual?

It's nothing to do with what fares are available.

Check the timetables. If they show first class is available on a
service, you need a first class ticket to sit in first class. If they
show it as standard class only, you can sit anywhere on the train with a
standard class ticket, irrespective of what the seating is like.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

First Class in the South East
 

Clive Feather:
Check the timetables. If they show first class is available on a
service, you need a first class ticket to sit in first class. If they
show it as standard class only, you can sit anywhere on the train with a
standard class ticket, irrespective of what the seating is like.

So why is this allowed? I have no problem if the train operators want
to use their first-class rolling stock this way, but it seems obvious
to me that they should be required to mark it as second class, instead
of requiring passengers who don't buy first-class tickets to know which
trains the timetable says first class exists on.
--
Mark Brader | "And so it went. Tens of thousands of messages,
Toronto | hundreds of points of view. It was not called the
| Net of a Million Lies for nothing." --Vernor Vinge

First Class in the South East
 

"Clive D. W. Feather" wrote in message
...
In article , James Farrar
writes
AFAIK there are no first class fares available along that route, and
certainly not for my part of it.

Does that, therefore, mean that I am entitled to sit in the "First
Class" area with my Z1-3 Annual?

It's nothing to do with what fares are available.

Check the timetables. If they show first class is available on a service,
you need a first class ticket to sit in first class. If they show it as
standard class only, you can sit anywhere on the train with a standard
class ticket, irrespective of what the seating is like.

Is this stated officially anywhere? I have heard this rule mentioned in this
group many times but I can't find any reference to it in the Conditions of
Carriage.

Peter Smyth

First Class in the South East
 

Mark Brader wrote:

So why is this allowed? I have no problem if the train operators want
to use their first-class rolling stock this way, but it seems obvious
to me that they should be required to mark it as second class, instead
of requiring passengers who don't buy first-class tickets to know
which trains the timetable says first class exists on.

Once upon a dim distant time paper window labels were used to indicate
declassified accommodation. However, that died out during the British Rail
days (around the mid to late 1970s). Other than on the Midland Main Line
Meridians, where there are 'permanent' window labels in one vehicle,
declassifying standard class, I don't recall seeing it in many years. I
suspect that it fell out of favour with higher diagramming of stock,
resulting in stock working on several routes in a day, some of which may
require first class accommodation, and the manpower was not there to keep
labelling and de-labelling stock. However, IIRC, most of the Windsor line
diagrams are captive and stock could, theoretically, be labelled up at the
start of the day and remain so until end of service.

First Class in the South East
 

On Tue, 08 Nov 2005 14:01:47 +0000, Paul
said:

Funny you should mention the Windsor line. The Windsor & Eaton train
via Whitton I get each morning & evening has a first class carriage, but
there is no first class service available on the train. So anyone can
sit in 1st class, but I think most people don't know this...

If they're anything like the contract ticket inspectors that Southern
use, the staff don't know either. Occasionally you'll find one of
their goons standing in the gangway blocking off a supposedly first
class section of a train which the timetable claims is all standard
class, and keeping it empty despite the rest of the train not even
having any more room to stand in.

Thankfully, those trains always have spare seats at the stations I get
on and off at.

--
David Cantrell | http://www.cantrell.org.uk/david

First Class in the South East
 

"David Cantrell" wrote in message
...

If they're anything like the contract ticket inspectors that Southern
use, the staff don't know either. Occasionally you'll find one of
their goons standing in the gangway blocking off a supposedly first
class section of a train which the timetable claims is all standard
class, and keeping it empty despite the rest of the train not even
having any more room to stand in.

Thankfully, those trains always have spare seats at the stations I get
on and off at.


David Cantrell

Fortunately the Desiros still have guards, who should be aware of this, and
IIRC their office is just next to the first class section.

Paul

First Class in the South East
 

Paul wrote:

I think I've seen something on the scrolling display on a train. It
was only a glance but it didn't seem to show it again (until I got
bored).

Yes, it scrolls round between listing the destination and stopping pattern
(usually after station stops) and says 'All seats on this train are standard
class'. I made a note of checking it yesterday on a couple of W&E trains -
it ought to show more frequently though.