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No staff on gatelines (again)
Hi,
Once again there were no staff on the East Putney gateline @ 1530ish yesterday. And once again, all the ticket gates were closed (including the side gate) despite there being a sign saying that people could pay at their destination due to the ticket office being closed. As I have said before, the information button doesn't seem to connect in these situations. Which of the following would get me in the least trouble if I got stuck in the station due to this (and my paper ticket not working)... a) Climbing over gate b) Pushing the emergency open button c) Returning to a platform and attracting the attention of the next driver d) Kicking a gate hard to try and open it |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Chris! wrote: Hi, Once again there were no staff on the East Putney gateline @ 1530ish yesterday. And once again, all the ticket gates were closed (including the side gate) despite there being a sign saying that people could pay at their destination due to the ticket office being closed. As I have said before, the information button doesn't seem to connect in these situations. Which of the following would get me in the least trouble if I got stuck in the station due to this (and my paper ticket not working)... a) Climbing over gate b) Pushing the emergency open button c) Returning to a platform and attracting the attention of the next driver d) Kicking a gate hard to try and open it I took LUL to task on more than one occasion after they left the gates at Brent Cross shut when the booking office was not open. LUL never once got back to me regarding the complaints that I had made regarding the clear breach of safety regulations. That was before 7/7 so I hope that they have now got their act together and don't ever leave the gates shut when there is nobody to offer assistance. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
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No staff on gatelines (again)
Which of the following would get me in the least trouble if I got stuck in the station due to this (and my paper ticket not working)... b) Pushing the emergency open button I'd go for this one, and have done on several occasions. The louder the noise it makes, the better. You'll also find that several people will follow you through when opened, and any RPI who turns up is going to have to contend with lots of people rather than just one. Of course, if you haven't got a ticket then, when you do get through, you must at least attempt to seek-out a persun who will accept your payment. Richard [in PE12] |
No staff on gatelines (again)
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No staff on gatelines (again)
"Paul Cummins" wrote in message .. . In article . com, (Chris!) wrote: b) Pushing the emergency open button IT's a legal requirement that the gate line be manned - I'd use the emergency button. Not technically correct. It's a requirement for the gates to be monitored, which can be remotely, and the emergency plunger activated. |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Robin Mayes wrote: "Paul Cummins" wrote in message .. . In article . com, (Chris!) wrote: b) Pushing the emergency open button IT's a legal requirement that the gate line be manned - I'd use the emergency button. Not technically correct. It's a requirement for the gates to be monitored, which can be remotely, and the emergency plunger activated. Well they obviously aren't being monitored remotely which a breach of health & safety. If they were being monitored remotely why are passengers having to vault the closed gates or force them open to get out of a station. Sounds like a bull**** excuse by LUL. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Someone must be within 5 seconds of an emergency plunger. If they aren't
watching the gateline they should be open. If you plunge it will be noticed in many places and questions will be asked. I'd plunge. Mal wrote in message oups.com... Robin Mayes wrote: "Paul Cummins" wrote in message .. . In article . com, (Chris!) wrote: b) Pushing the emergency open button IT's a legal requirement that the gate line be manned - I'd use the emergency button. Not technically correct. It's a requirement for the gates to be monitored, which can be remotely, and the emergency plunger activated. Well they obviously aren't being monitored remotely which a breach of health & safety. If they were being monitored remotely why are passengers having to vault the closed gates or force them open to get out of a station. Sounds like a bull**** excuse by LUL. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Mal wrote:
IT's a legal requirement that the gate line be manned - I'd use the emergency button. Not technically correct. It's a requirement for the gates to be monitored, which can be remotely, and the emergency plunger activated. Hi, I've noted this gate manning issue before (although it didn't seem too well enforced at Stamford Brook in the evenings that I could *see*) but am a little confused by the real issue. Do the gates need to be manned? Having moved to New York this summer, I am interested that despite being a daily commuter I've not spoken to one member of MTA staff and apart from a few ticket clerks (with big signs listing the tickets one has to buy from the machine--which is pretty much all of them!) in their cubicles, the subway seems to run fine without all the gate line staff milling around. Indeed, as a fairly regular tourist to New York I had the view that the tube was a much better, safer, cleaner, more efficient mode than the NYC subway, but I have to say my 25 minute daily commute on the 1 line from the Village to the UWS is a pleasure and we seem to manage fine without any gate line staff (next train departure boards would be nice though.) So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's (they appear more dangerous to me, but beyond cries of "health and safety" I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway), or are these "health and safety" reasons for manning gatelines actually a very expensive policy decision with little benefit to passengers or the commerical operator? Any expert knowledge welcomed, Tom -- T.S.Cordiner Columbia University, New York City. |
No staff on gatelines (again)
T.S. Cordiner wrote in
: I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway One very important function that gateline staff perform is letting out passengers whose tickets refuse to open the gates. Almost every time I go up to London, I find that somewhere during my travels around the underground I'll encounter a station whose gates won't recognise my ticket, either on entry or else on exit. And we'll have no jokes about the effect of my magnetic personality on the magnetic stripe on the ticket ;-) |
No staff on gatelines (again)
"T.S. Cordiner" writes:
So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...? Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving. -- Mark Brader, Toronto "I may be ranting, but I'm right!" -- Wojeck: Out of the Fire |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Mark Brader wrote:
"T.S. Cordiner" writes: So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...? Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving. So all those staff are there just to let people out when (as I acknowledge it frequently does) one's ticket stops working? I would have thought it more efficient to have fare charged on entry, let people out the other end and save rather a lot of money on staff. Is this just a small part of gate line duties? I can think of providing information and assistance, but that doesn't fall into the "health and safety" argument. What's the heatlh and safety argument for gate-line staff that means London needs them and NYC doesn't? Thanks, Tom |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Tom Cordiner and I (Mark Brader) wrote:
So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...? Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving. So all those staff are there just to let people out when (as I acknowledge it frequently does) one's ticket stops working? You didn't ask about staffing *levels*, and I'm not commenting on that. You asked why there have to be any staff, and the reason is to let people out in case their ticket stops working *or* in case the station has to be evacuated and there isn't time for tickets to be checked. I would have thought it more efficient to have fare charged on entry, let people out the other end and save rather a lot of money on staff. Of course it is -- but that requires a flat fare, which is considered unacceptable. The other way is open stations, of course, but that has its own problems. (Please change the subject line if you want to debate these questions.) Is this just a small part of gate line duties? I can think of providing information and assistance, but that doesn't fall into the "health and safety" argument. Indeed. Compare air travel, where the number of cabin crew is determined on "health and safety" grounds even though on a typical flight they only spend a few minutes on that. What's the heatlh and safety argument for gate-line staff that means London needs them and NYC doesn't? With the fare system used in London, the exit gates do need to be capable of stopping people from leaving. Hence there has to be an emergency override for this, which means a human. -- Mark Brader, Toronto | There is no step function between "safe" and "unsafe". | -- Jeff Janes My text in this article is in the public domain. |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Martin Underwood wrote: T.S. Cordiner wrote in : I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway One very important function that gateline staff perform is letting out passengers whose tickets refuse to open the gates. Almost every time I go up to London, I find that somewhere during my travels around the underground I'll encounter a station whose gates won't recognise my ticket, either on entry or else on exit. And we'll have no jokes about the effect of my magnetic personality on the magnetic stripe on the ticket ;-) Slightly different subject but I am pretty ****ed this morning having had my weekly travel card stolen from the gates yesterday evening at Euston. I could have been generous and said that somebody took it by mistake but I believe they knew that they had taken the wrong ticket. Euston was mayhem at about 5pm with one gate out of action and with people barging and pushing in at the next gate. The resulting mayhem caused many of the tickets to be rejected which made the the chaos even worse. At this point somebody barged in front and left with my tickect. Only after a fight nearly started with some impatient bugger behind me nearly started did the LU staff start to manage the chaos and throw the side gate open and let every body out without checks. My ticket gone, LU's repsonse, it happens all the time, what do you expect us to do about it. Well manage the overcrowding caused by your inability to have all the gates working a little better for a start. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you blame
someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look after it. However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which staff should do. Mal wrote in message ups.com... Martin Underwood wrote: T.S. Cordiner wrote in : I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway One very important function that gateline staff perform is letting out passengers whose tickets refuse to open the gates. Almost every time I go up to London, I find that somewhere during my travels around the underground I'll encounter a station whose gates won't recognise my ticket, either on entry or else on exit. And we'll have no jokes about the effect of my magnetic personality on the magnetic stripe on the ticket ;-) Slightly different subject but I am pretty ****ed this morning having had my weekly travel card stolen from the gates yesterday evening at Euston. I could have been generous and said that somebody took it by mistake but I believe they knew that they had taken the wrong ticket. Euston was mayhem at about 5pm with one gate out of action and with people barging and pushing in at the next gate. The resulting mayhem caused many of the tickets to be rejected which made the the chaos even worse. At this point somebody barged in front and left with my tickect. Only after a fight nearly started with some impatient bugger behind me nearly started did the LU staff start to manage the chaos and throw the side gate open and let every body out without checks. My ticket gone, LU's repsonse, it happens all the time, what do you expect us to do about it. Well manage the overcrowding caused by your inability to have all the gates working a little better for a start. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
The gates must be manned. But they can be monitored from a ticket office.
They have a plunger in there also. If your ticket doesn't work you are expected to go to the excess fare window, show your ticket and the person in the office will let you out. Not through the side gate. The 5 second rule is also if someone gets caught in a gate....child perhaps. Monitoring can be done remotely. Staff don't like it but thats the way LUL say is OK after risk assesment. Mal "T.S. Cordiner" wrote in message ... Mal wrote: IT's a legal requirement that the gate line be manned - I'd use the emergency button. Not technically correct. It's a requirement for the gates to be monitored, which can be remotely, and the emergency plunger activated. Hi, I've noted this gate manning issue before (although it didn't seem too well enforced at Stamford Brook in the evenings that I could *see*) but am a little confused by the real issue. Do the gates need to be manned? Having moved to New York this summer, I am interested that despite being a daily commuter I've not spoken to one member of MTA staff and apart from a few ticket clerks (with big signs listing the tickets one has to buy from the machine--which is pretty much all of them!) in their cubicles, the subway seems to run fine without all the gate line staff milling around. Indeed, as a fairly regular tourist to New York I had the view that the tube was a much better, safer, cleaner, more efficient mode than the NYC subway, but I have to say my 25 minute daily commute on the 1 line from the Village to the UWS is a pleasure and we seem to manage fine without any gate line staff (next train departure boards would be nice though.) So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's (they appear more dangerous to me, but beyond cries of "health and safety" I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway), or are these "health and safety" reasons for manning gatelines actually a very expensive policy decision with little benefit to passengers or the commerical operator? Any expert knowledge welcomed, Tom -- T.S.Cordiner Columbia University, New York City. |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Mark Brader wrote:
Tom Cordiner and I (Mark Brader) wrote: So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's...? Sure. New York is a flat-fare system with the fare charged on entry, so the exit gates don't need to be capable of stopping people from leaving. So all those staff are there just to let people out when (as I acknowledge it frequently does) one's ticket stops working? You didn't ask about staffing *levels*, and I'm not commenting on that. You asked why there have to be any staff, and the reason is to let people out in case their ticket stops working *or* in case the station has to be evacuated and there isn't time for tickets to be checked. Not quite, I asked why people bleat "health and safety" when justifying gateline staff; I am perfectly willing to accept *other* reasons for the staff being there (but those are policy not legal health and safety requirements). I have no agenda other than being genuinely curious as to what the health and safety reasons are. There's been an exponential rise in "health and safety" as a blanket reason for anything and everything in the UK in recent years (humorous examples such as the cheese rolling tradition being banned come to mind) but I am trying to understand what the real issue is and, other than the flat fare which I accept is a big difference, how NYC manages to operate a subway safely without the gateline staff. |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Mal wrote: So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you blame someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look after it. However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which staff should do. Mal I blame LUL because they failed to manage the chaos that was created because at least one gate was out of action. I am required to put my ticket in the gate to be scanned , from that point on it is out of my control. To be fair if the daft woman in front of me hadn't actually stepped back out of the gate to allow a pushy f**king girl to barge he way through (she was probabley travelling without a ticket) then I would have been in a position to stop somebody swiping my ticket out of the machine. The woman in front of me probabley picked up my ticket so I hopethat she had an annual first class ticket taken. It would make her think twice before allowing somebody to push in front. Why is LUL's inability to manage a situation my fault. After initially doing nothing and sending me on my way and Silverlink saying they needed something from LUL before allowing me to proceed, I returned to the LU station and created merry hell. The station manager did then give me a replacement travel card but I did need to raise merry hell to get it. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Mal wrote: The gates must be manned. But they can be monitored from a ticket office. They have a plunger in there also. If your ticket doesn't work you are expected to go to the excess fare window, show your ticket and the person in the office will let you out. Not through the side gate. The 5 second rule is also if someone gets caught in a gate....child perhaps. Monitoring can be done remotely. Staff don't like it but thats the way LUL say is OK after risk assesment. Like I said in the OP - there are often no visible staff at East Putney. Ticket office closed, gates shut, no one responding to the information button. Hence it isn't possible to go to the excess fare window |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Martin Underwood wrote: wrote in : Mal wrote: So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you blame someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look after it. However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which staff should do. Mal I blame LUL because they failed to manage the chaos that was created because at least one gate was out of action. I am required to put my ticket in the gate to be scanned , from that point on it is out of my control. To be fair if the daft woman in front of me hadn't actually stepped back out of the gate to allow a pushy f**king girl to barge he way through (she was probabley travelling without a ticket) then I would have been in a position to stop somebody swiping my ticket out of the machine. The woman in front of me probabley picked up my ticket so I hopethat she had an annual first class ticket taken. It would make her think twice before allowing somebody to push in front. Why is LUL's inability to manage a situation my fault. After initially doing nothing and sending me on my way and Silverlink saying they needed something from LUL before allowing me to proceed, I returned to the LU station and created merry hell. The station manager did then give me a replacement travel card but I did need to raise merry hell to get it. When I'm going up to London, I always pay by credit card and keep the receipt separate from the ticket so I have independent proof that I bought the ticket and of its ticket number. So far I've never lost or had stolen a ticket, but there's always a first time... I have also perfected the rapid movement of my hand from the entry slot to the exit slot so my hand arrives there *before* the ticket it returned, lessening the chances of someone taking it from me except by extreme force. It's a shame that the LUL barriers take the ticket away and then return it to you. If you swiped your own ticket, it would never leave your hand. I presume swiping was considerd but found to be too unreliable. It also doesn't allow a ticket to be retained if it is no longer valid because you've finished your journey. I am usually pretty careful once I insert my ticket into the gate . While I am in possession of my ticket I can be responsible for it. Whan I am not in possesssion of my ticket ie when it is in the gate it is LUL's responsibility. That is why I hold them liable in this instance for not managing the overcrowding. They did seem to indicate that this is a fairly common occurance although in 15 years I have never come anywhere close to this before. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
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No staff on gatelines (again)
"T.S. Cordiner" writes:
Having moved to New York this summer, I am interested that despite being a daily commuter I've not spoken to one member of MTA staff and apart from a few ticket clerks (with big signs listing the tickets one has to buy from the machine--which is pretty much all of them!) in their cubicles, the subway seems to run fine without all the gate line staff milling around. Indeed, as a fairly regular tourist to New York I had the view that the tube was a much better, safer, cleaner, more efficient mode than the NYC subway, but I have to say my 25 minute daily commute on the 1 line from the Village to the UWS is a pleasure and we seem to manage fine without any gate line staff (next train departure boards would be nice though.) As an almost lifelong New Yorker who happened to visit London this summer, I find it interesting to read this perspective. Until 1994, the mode of payment for the subway was the token, which could only be purchased from a Station Agent (S/A). (Well, nearly only. A few stations had token machines, but the vast majority didn't.) Most station entrances had S/A's. To prevent fare beating, the entrances that did not were equipped with so-called iron maidens (see http://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?8303 ), whose token slots were invariably stuffed -- intending passengers would lose their tokens and vandals would come out of hiding to suck the tokens out of the jammed slot. In 1994, the plastic MetroCard was introduced, although it wasn't accepted at all stations until 1997. In 1997, bulk discounts, unlimited cards, and free subway-bus transfers were finally introduced, but tokens were still available for those who preferred them. The old iron maidens began to be replaced with modern MetroCard-only High Entry-Exit Turnstiles (HEET's), nearly as cumbersome but resistant to sucker vandalism. In addition to being sold at booths, prepackaged MetroCards were sold at vendors outside the system. One variety of MetroCard, the one-day unlimited Fun Pass, was never available at the booths; at the time, one had to purchase it from an outside vendor. In 1999(?), the MetroCard Vending Machine was born, and over the next several years, MVM's were installed systemwide. For the first time ever, credit card payments were accepted for MetroCards. And Fun Passes were sold out of the machines in the stations, although still not from booths. Another sort of card only sold by the machines was the paper SingleRide, valid for one ride within two hours of purchase with no free bus-subway transfer (i.e., the exact same terms as a single token, except that a token didn't expire after two hours). You see, the minimum balance sold on a new plastic MetroCard has always been the equivalent of two fares ($3 at the time), so this was the MetroCard equivalent of a single token. With MetroCard share having grown to nearly 100%, the MTA was in a position to finally phase out the token. With the 2003 fare increase, the token was officially abandoned (although tokens already in circulation were still accepted on buses, with additional cash payment for the fare differential, until the end of the year). Passengers wishing to pay for only one fare were directed to the machines for SingleRides, since a new MetroCard still had a two-ride (now up to $4) minimum. At the same time, a loss insurance program was instituted for 30-day unlimited cards, but only if they were purchased by credit card at a machine. Station Agents were now essentially obsolete. There were no fare options sold only by the S/A's, and there were several sold only by machine, and in fact most passengers purchased their MetroCards from the machines. While S/A's were now primarily in a customer service position, they were still locked in booths outside fare control (and, in my experience, were more often than not either unable or unwilling to assist). The MTA wanted to close many booths, replacing the turnstiles with HEET's, in many cases turning part-time entrances into full-time entrances in the process. At least one full-time attended entrance would remain at each station. But there was an outcry (in my opinion, mostly misguided). Obviously, the union was opposed. But a lot of passengers seemed to think the subway system would suddenly become grossly unsafe if fewer of its entrances were manned -- never mind that many of the subway platforms, where people actually stand and wait for the train, have always been completely out of sight of any booth, except perhaps by surveillance camera (which, of course, could be monitored at a central office in Brooklyn just as easily as in the station booth). The only IMO valid objection, which I didn't hear often, was that at many stations with separate fare control for each direction (very common at local stations, especially on the older IRT and BMT), there would be no way to get onto or off of the platform in one direction except through the HEET's, which can't accommodate bulky objects. (One of the stations on the list was the station at 125th Street and Lenox Avenue on the 2/3, where northbound access would have been only via HEET. That's an official transfer point to the M60 bus to LaGuardia Airport. Presumably some people might need to exit the station with luggage!) Some of the planned closures were instituted, but most were dropped over public objection. With the fare increase of 2004, the MTA floated a similar list of closures. Public pressure again stood in the way of implementation. Instead of removing S/A's, the MTA decided to convert many S/A's into SCA's (Station Customer Agents). Over time, many booths are being painted a pretty shade of burgundy and the agents (now dressed in burgundy) are being moved outside. They can still step into the booth if necessary, but they do not handle cash or make MetroCard transactions. Standard-height turnstiles remain. Although this isn't saving the MTA any labor costs, it is, I think, improving customer service. At least one standard booth will remain at each station for the foreseeable future. One question that remains is what will happen to part-time entrances. The closest station entrance to my home, at 87th Street and Broadway, is only open rush hours, when an S/A is on duty. At other times I have to walk an extra block on the street to the full-time entrance, even though I have no use for the S/A. (In fact, several years ago I got into frequent arguments with the S/A there about the exact opening time of that entrance. The sign said 6:30, but after several arguments it came to light that the S/A's schedule said 6:35, and I needed to catch a train that arrived between those times.) I would be thrilled if that booth were closed and the entrance were opened full-time. According to an S/A who generally knows what he's talking about, the booth is scheduled to be painted burgundy at some point next year, at which point an SCA will be on-duty around the clock(!). So, for the time being, the Station Agent is here to stay in one form or another -- there are enough vocal New Yorkers who insist on it. As Mark points out, since the subway system has a flat fare, the turnstiles are never locked for exiting passengers except when the entire exit is closed. Except for passengers with bulky objects that can't fit through the turnstiles, there is no need for assistance in exiting. (Entering can be a different story, especially if the MetroCard readers aren't cleaned often enough.) The PATH system to New Jersey also has a flat fare and also uses standard-height turnstiles, but stations are unmanned. I once had to use the customer service telephone (the turnstile swallowed my card but forgot to unlock the gate), and I was instructed to use the wheelchair access gate. But for some reason, the MTA refuses to use standard-height turnstiles at unattended stations. With standard turnstiles, I think a lot of the objection to booth closings would quickly disappear. I also rely on the 1 train, as you can tell from my home station. The 1 used to be terribly unreliable, but it improved substantially in 2002. It's still somewhat unreliable due to inevitable overcrowding, but at 20 tph in the AM rush, it's usually manageable if the trains don't get bunched up. Enjoy the good service while it lasts; the trackage at the new South Ferry terminal (under construction) is remarkably similar to the trackage at the upper level of Jamaica Center, which can only handle 12 tph (and since the E runs up to 15 tph, some rush hour trains are diverted to the 179th Street terminal otherwise served only by the F). Can you say 40% service cut? (And weekend headways are quite inadequate. They were increased from 5 minutes to 6 minutes a few years ago, and the change was immediately apparent.) As for the London system, I was quite impressed overall, despite half of my station (Notting Hill Gate) having been closed for my entire stay. Service seems to be quite a bit more frequent than here in New York (except overnight, of course). And I managed to thoroughly confuse my Oyster Card at one point (it had an unresolved journey followed by a trip with no entry point even though the two should have been linked together), but aside from that, it was quite convenient. -- David of Broadway New York, NY |
No staff on gatelines (again)
On 24 Nov 2005 02:52:35 -0800, wrote:
Martin Underwood wrote: wrote in : Mal wrote: So....someone stole something from you worth a lot of money and you blame someone else?? Its your ticket, its worth a fortune, look after it. However there is a procedure for issuing a new one which staff should do. Mal I blame LUL because they failed to manage the chaos that was created because at least one gate was out of action. I am required to put my ticket in the gate to be scanned , from that point on it is out of my control. To be fair if the daft woman in front of me hadn't actually stepped back out of the gate to allow a pushy f**king girl to barge he way through (she was probabley travelling without a ticket) then I would have been in a position to stop somebody swiping my ticket out of the machine. The woman in front of me probabley picked up my ticket so I hopethat she had an annual first class ticket taken. It would make her think twice before allowing somebody to push in front. Why is LUL's inability to manage a situation my fault. After initially doing nothing and sending me on my way and Silverlink saying they needed something from LUL before allowing me to proceed, I returned to the LU station and created merry hell. The station manager did then give me a replacement travel card but I did need to raise merry hell to get it. When I'm going up to London, I always pay by credit card and keep the receipt separate from the ticket so I have independent proof that I bought the ticket and of its ticket number. So far I've never lost or had stolen a ticket, but there's always a first time... I have also perfected the rapid movement of my hand from the entry slot to the exit slot so my hand arrives there *before* the ticket it returned, lessening the chances of someone taking it from me except by extreme force. It's a shame that the LUL barriers take the ticket away and then return it to you. If you swiped your own ticket, it would never leave your hand. I presume swiping was considerd but found to be too unreliable. It also doesn't allow a ticket to be retained if it is no longer valid because you've finished your journey. I am usually pretty careful once I insert my ticket into the gate . While I am in possession of my ticket I can be responsible for it. Whan I am not in possesssion of my ticket ie when it is in the gate it is LUL's responsibility. That is why I hold them liable in this instance for not managing the overcrowding. They did seem to indicate that this is a fairly common occurance although in 15 years I have never come anywhere close to this before. You appear to have got into trouble because you inserted your ticket before the person in front of you had passed through the gate. That's your fault. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
No staff on gatelines (again)
T.S. Cordiner wrote:
So my question is, is the MTA putting its passengers in danger, or are the gates of the NYC system very different from London's (they appear more dangerous to me, but beyond cries of "health and safety" I am unsure exactly what the argument for the gateline staff is anyway), or are these "health and safety" reasons for manning gatelines actually a very expensive policy decision with little benefit to passengers or the commerical operator? It's not really a H+S issue. The London system is not self-contained, in the way that other cities' metros are. There is still a surreal mix of tickets,ticketing,fares,routings,interchanges. (Though it's a lot better than in the 1980s). With this, the possibility of not being able to get in/out of a station with a ticket that may or may not be valid is a very real one. Richard [in PE12] |
No staff on gatelines (again)
David of Broadway wrote:
is only open rush hours, when an S/A is on duty. At other times I have to walk an extra block on the street to the full-time entrance, even though I have no use for the S/A. (In fact, several years ago I got into frequent arguments with the S/A there about the exact opening time of that entrance. The sign said 6:30, but after several arguments it came to light that the S/A's schedule said 6:35, and I needed to catch a train that arrived between those times.) Just as a matter of interest, why do you need to get a train at between 06:30 and 06:35 ? Couldn't you get one at say 06:37 and use the nearer entrance ? Can't say I've ever gone to a metro station with a specific five-minute window in mind: I just get the first appropriate train. Richard [in PE12] |
No staff on gatelines (again)
I am sure there is someone in there somewhere. If not HMRI would be very
interested. Take times next time it happens, post it and i'll look into it. I only say that as i'm confident if i ask they will tell me its all ok....... Mal "Chris!" wrote in message oups.com... Mal wrote: The gates must be manned. But they can be monitored from a ticket office. They have a plunger in there also. If your ticket doesn't work you are expected to go to the excess fare window, show your ticket and the person in the office will let you out. Not through the side gate. The 5 second rule is also if someone gets caught in a gate....child perhaps. Monitoring can be done remotely. Staff don't like it but thats the way LUL say is OK after risk assesment. Like I said in the OP - there are often no visible staff at East Putney. Ticket office closed, gates shut, no one responding to the information button. Hence it isn't possible to go to the excess fare window |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Mal wrote: I am sure there is someone in there somewhere. If not HMRI would be very interested. Take times next time it happens, post it and i'll look into it. I only say that as i'm confident if i ask they will tell me its all ok....... There may well be someone in there somewhere but when the curtains down there is no way of contacting them - the glass is so thick that banging on it does nothing and when I had a problem in the past the information button was ignored. I have complained about the lack of staff at this station before (e.g. when I was the only person on the platform and there was a huge unattended bag I had to wait until I got further down the line to report it) |
No staff on gatelines (again)
When was last time?
"Chris!" wrote in message oups.com... Mal wrote: I am sure there is someone in there somewhere. If not HMRI would be very interested. Take times next time it happens, post it and i'll look into it. I only say that as i'm confident if i ask they will tell me its all ok....... There may well be someone in there somewhere but when the curtains down there is no way of contacting them - the glass is so thick that banging on it does nothing and when I had a problem in the past the information button was ignored. I have complained about the lack of staff at this station before (e.g. when I was the only person on the platform and there was a huge unattended bag I had to wait until I got further down the line to report it) |
No staff on gatelines (again)
T.S. Cordiner typed:
I am trying to understand what the real issue is and, other than the flat fare which I accept is a big difference, how NYC manages to operate a subway safely without the gateline staff. And the real issue keeps getting explained to you! NYC manages to operate without gateline staff because, as in Paris, the exit gates don't require a ticket. This is not the case in London, where in order to combat fraud in connection with a fairly complex fare structure, the exit gates require a ticket to open them. This means that situations can arise where passengers' health and safety could be endangered if they were unable to exit from a station, or unable to do so sufficiently quickly in an emergency. Is it clear to you now? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Richard J. wrote: T.S. Cordiner typed: I am trying to understand what the real issue is and, other than the flat fare which I accept is a big difference, how NYC manages to operate a subway safely without the gateline staff. And the real issue keeps getting explained to you! NYC manages to operate without gateline staff because, as in Paris, the exit gates don't require a ticket. On a related note, the RER in Paris DOES have ticketed exit gates, and I have been "locked in" unable to exit with no staff around to help. Amazingly, I did survive the ordeal though! :-) |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III writes:
David of Broadway wrote: is only open rush hours, when an S/A is on duty. At other times I have to walk an extra block on the street to the full-time entrance, even though I have no use for the S/A. (In fact, several years ago I got into frequent arguments with the S/A there about the exact opening time of that entrance. The sign said 6:30, but after several arguments it came to light that the S/A's schedule said 6:35, and I needed to catch a train that arrived between those times.) Just as a matter of interest, why do you need to get a train at between 06:30 and 06:35 ? Couldn't you get one at say 06:37 and use the nearer entrance ? Can't say I've ever gone to a metro station with a specific five-minute window in mind: I just get the first appropriate train. Fair enough question (since it is kind of unusual). At that time of day the 1 still runs pretty close to schedule, and that train was the last one that would get me to Times Square in time for the 6:45 Q local, where I would prepare my lecture notes until it got to the last stop at Brighton Beach at about 7:30, where I would join the large crowd waiting to cram onto the unreliable B1 bus and would hopefully make it to my 8:00 class on time. If I missed that 1 train, I would end up on the first Q express of the day, which got me to Brighton Beach just a few minutes later, but (a) the train was more crowded, making it more difficult for me to be productive, and (b) the crowds waiting for the bus were much larger, decreasing the likelihood that I'd be able to fit onto the next few buses. Both my work schedule and the subway routes have changed since then (late 2003). Also, I've taken to driving between the subway and work on most days, since the buses are so unpredictable (although, to be fair, my car has been in the shop this week and the bus has been fine). Now I take the 1 to 59th Street - Columbus Circle for the B to either Sheepshead Bay or Brighton Beach. But the B runs on nominal 10-minute headways, and the tower that controls its merges and diverges along Central Park West is staffed by a bunch of monkeys who don't know how to read a schedule, so it's not uncommon for one train to leave Columbus Circle a few minutes early and for its follower to leave a few minutes late -- so I aim to catch a specific B train but assume that there's a good chance that I'll miss it. (A few weeks ago, when I already left home a bit later than usual, one B train ran at least five minutes early -- I know that because that's when I got there, and it never showed up. Then its follower was late and lost more time on the way into Brooklyn, arriving at its terminal a full 11 minutes late. I should have gotten to Brighton Beach at 8:46; instead, I got there at 9:07, which didn't leave me quite enough time to get to my 9:10 class.) And when a B train is taken out of service, leading to a 20-minute gap, there are rarely station announcements informing the passengers waiting for the B, even though there are alternate routes to all stations served by the B. (Then again, sometimes the people making the announcements are a bit confused. Here's one gem I heard on Tuesday at 34th Street: "Ladies and gentlemen, after an earlier incident, Brooklyn-bound B as in Bravo service is running. As an alternative for Brooklyn-bound B as in Bravo service, take a Brooklyn-bound D as in Delta train to Pacific Street - Atlantic Avenue and transfer to a Coney Island-bound Q as in Quincy train." First of all, why do we need an alternative if the train is running now? And second, considering that the Q stops in a different part of the very same 34th Street station complex, why not just walk upstairs and get it right away instead of riding the D into Brooklyn? It turns out that, while the B was running, the first B train wouldn't reenter service until the next stop, West 4th Street. The /correct/ advice would have been to take an F or V train to West 4th Street and transfer there to the B.) Wow. That's a long paragraph. Sorry. -- David of Broadway New York, NY |
No staff on gatelines (again)
James Farrar wrote: You appear to have got into trouble because you inserted your ticket before the person in front of you had passed through the gate. That's your fault. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com And at very crowded stations if people didn't do that it would take twice as long to clear the passengers making the overcrowding even worse, not to mention the abuse from the passengers behind complaining about the hold ups or people pushing in. That would be LUL's fault. Do you have any suggestions? Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
How can it be LULs fault that people push in the queue and take your ticket
because you allow them to do so.? Do you allow peopel to walk up to you in the street and take things from you? It happens quite regularly. The naughty people dont leave the barrier until you have put your ticket in, they take it, go sell it and buy drugs. Or alcohol. Dont put it in until the person in front has left. Or buy an Oyster. Problem solved. Mal wrote in message oups.com... James Farrar wrote: You appear to have got into trouble because you inserted your ticket before the person in front of you had passed through the gate. That's your fault. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com And at very crowded stations if people didn't do that it would take twice as long to clear the passengers making the overcrowding even worse, not to mention the abuse from the passengers behind complaining about the hold ups or people pushing in. That would be LUL's fault. Do you have any suggestions? Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
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No staff on gatelines (again)
Mal wrote: How can it be LULs fault that people push in the queue and take your ticket because you allow them to do so.? Do you allow peopel to walk up to you in the street and take things from you? It happens quite regularly. The naughty people dont leave the barrier until you have put your ticket in, they take it, go sell it and buy drugs. Or alcohol. Dont put it in until the person in front has left. Or buy an Oyster. Problem solved. Mal I think that you are confusing two separate issues. Do I allow people to take things off of me in the street, no I don't. I am required by LUL to put my ticket into the gate it is therefore out of my control. Note that there is nothing written on the gate to say they you should only insert the ticket after the previous person has removed theirs. If that is the case then LUL should say so. Alternatively if you should not insert your ticket until the previous ticket is removed then the mechanism should prevent you from doing so. Better luck next time. Kevin |
No staff on gatelines (again)
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No staff on gatelines (again)
Mal wrote: When was last time? I don't remember the exact dates (although I presume my complaints were logged when, for example, I reported an unattended bag at East Putney but actually reported it at South Kensington - complete with lack of staff explanation) Due to the continuing problems on the Wimbledon line and the unpredictability of journey times I have been cycling most days for the past 5 months so I am unlikely to see this happen often enough to get a good picture of exactly how frequently it happens. Chris |
No staff on gatelines (again)
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 01:25:07 +0000, Dave Newt
wrote: Richard J. wrote: T.S. Cordiner typed: I am trying to understand what the real issue is and, other than the flat fare which I accept is a big difference, how NYC manages to operate a subway safely without the gateline staff. And the real issue keeps getting explained to you! NYC manages to operate without gateline staff because, as in Paris, the exit gates don't require a ticket. On a related note, the RER in Paris DOES have ticketed exit gates, and I have been "locked in" unable to exit with no staff around to help. and parts of the Paris suburban network that are not on the RER are also gated, It is entirely possible to be trapped inside these gatelines. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
No staff on gatelines (again)
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 01:25:07 +0000, Dave Newt wrote: Richard J. wrote: T.S. Cordiner typed: I am trying to understand what the real issue is and, other than the flat fare which I accept is a big difference, how NYC manages to operate a subway safely without the gateline staff. And the real issue keeps getting explained to you! NYC manages to operate without gateline staff because, as in Paris, the exit gates don't require a ticket. On a related note, the RER in Paris DOES have ticketed exit gates, and I have been "locked in" unable to exit with no staff around to help. and parts of the Paris suburban network that are not on the RER are also gated, It is entirely possible to be trapped inside these gatelines. My point being that they seem to manage OK. |
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