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Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On Wednesday morning, at aboutn 9.50a.m. there was some sort of
Victoria Line problem on the Northbound line into Victoria - according to a station announcer a train was due to "come out of a siding" (somewhere between Victoria and Pimlico?) to be the next Northbound train but there was a signal problem, and the line became blocked. So, for some reason the next Southbound train to arrive at Victoria was terminated at Victoria, and all of us waiting on the Northbound platform were directed onto that train. The train was evacuated of angry Southbound passengers, the train sealed, carriage by carriage, and then re-opened carriage by carriage for Northbound passengers to board, all watched by furious Southbound passengers who then had to wait on the platform. The driver changed ends and we all sat patiently for a few minutes. Then came an announcement that they could not get the signal to allow that train to leave the Southbound platform in a Northerly direction. I spoke to the driver, who confirmed that "I can't get the signal". Then the train was evacuated for a second time, and both platforms then became full of Northbound and Southbound passengers nicely mixed up! A few minutes later came the announcement that "All Victoria Line services are now suspended". There was then the inevitable mass exodus of several hundred passengers angrily looking for other means of transport at about 10.15a.m. Two questions for those "in the know": 1. Was it inevitable that there would be difficulty in the Southbound train trying to travel North out of the Southbound platform? For example, maybe this was impossible because the next following Southbound train was in block and therefore preventing any other train from "reversing" into its block, even if only to use the cross-over to the Northbound? If so, why did they even attempt to do so? 2. How on Earth could such a localised problem on a section South of Victoria effectively paralyse the entire line in both directions? Aren't there procedures in place to allow, for example (as presumably was attempted here), turning trains at Victoria and then continuing a Victoria - Walthamstow service, cutting out the Brixton section? For all I know, the problem may have been rectified within minutes (it certainly was by the time I arrived at Highbury an hour later, by bus), but, never mind terrorist alerts, there seems a tendency to shut down the entire line at the drop of a hat. Marc. |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
In article .com,
" writes On Wednesday morning, at aboutn 9.50a.m. there was some sort of Victoria Line problem on the Northbound line into Victoria - according to a station announcer a train was due to "come out of a siding" (somewhere between Victoria and Pimlico?) At the south end of Victoria station. to be the next Northbound train but there was a signal problem, and the line became blocked. Sounds like something prevented the points being restored to face the northbound running line while, at the same time, preventing anything coming out of the sidings. Offhand I can't see how a single failure could cause that, but that may just be lack of imagination on my part. So, for some reason the next Southbound train to arrive at Victoria was terminated at Victoria, and all of us waiting on the Northbound platform were directed onto that train. Good thinking on someone's part. At this point you can't allow any more trains north from Pimlico. So, unless you want to leave passengers in tunnels for an unknown length of time, you're limited to 8 trains in total south of Victoria (there being 4 stations with 2 platforms each). Since it is possible to run the line as if Victoria was the southern terminus, that would at least keep the service running. The train was evacuated of angry Southbound passengers, the train sealed, carriage by carriage, and then re-opened carriage by carriage for Northbound passengers to board, all watched by furious Southbound passengers who then had to wait on the platform. How would you do it without even more confusion? Then came an announcement that they could not get the signal to allow that train to leave the Southbound platform in a Northerly direction. I spoke to the driver, who confirmed that "I can't get the signal". Oh dear oh dear. Not a good day. Presumably the reversing crossover failed in some way. A few minutes later came the announcement that "All Victoria Line services are now suspended". Predictable. 1. Was it inevitable that there would be difficulty in the Southbound train trying to travel North out of the Southbound platform? No. For example, maybe this was impossible because the next following Southbound train was in block and therefore preventing any other train from "reversing" into its block, even if only to use the cross-over to the Northbound? The following train would be stopped at the previous signal or block post, which would be before the crossovers. So I don't see that as an explanation. 2. How on Earth could such a localised problem on a section South of Victoria effectively paralyse the entire line in both directions? See above. It wasn't one localised problem, it was two separate problems. Aren't there procedures in place to allow, for example (as presumably was attempted here), turning trains at Victoria and then continuing a Victoria - Walthamstow service, cutting out the Brixton section? Yes, which is what you've described happening! It's just that those also failed. For all I know, the problem may have been rectified within minutes (it certainly was by the time I arrived at Highbury an hour later, by bus), It's possible that the line was cut back to Warren Street - Walthamstow; IIRC, Warren Street is the next crossover back. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On 24 Nov 2005 16:12:45 -0800, "
wrote: angry Southbound passengers passengers angrily looking Nobody is "mildly annoyed" these days.... -- Nick Cooper [Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!] The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV: http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/ |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Clive,
Many thanks for your informative reply. Yes, I suppose, on reflection there were 2 problems, which were probably unconnected. An unfortunate coincidence. Nick, I was not "angry", just reisgned to my fate as another victim of what one expects nowadays on the Underground. Paradoxically, I used the Underground (Fulham Broadway to St. James' Park) every day of my secondary school and NOT ONCE was I late on account of Underground problems beween 1976 and 1984! Much as I would have wanted otherwise..... Marc. |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Clive D. W. Feather wrote: It's possible that the line was cut back to Warren Street - Walthamstow; IIRC, Warren Street is the next crossover back. Thank god the builders of the JLE had the forsight to put in lots of crossovers so the nonense we have to put up with on other lines whereby huge swathes of the line is closed simply because of a lack of crossovers to reverse trains at is mitigated. I sometimes wonder if it was lack of money or lack of foresight that caused so few to be built in the underground sections of tube lines and in cases where there was deliberate removal of them such as at Covent Garden on the piccadilly and Archway on the northern, whether just plain stupidity was involved. B2003 |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On 24 Nov 2005 16:12:45 -0800, "
wrote: On Wednesday morning, at aboutn 9.50a.m. there was some sort of Victoria Line problem on the Northbound line into Victoria - according to a station announcer a train was due to "come out of a siding" (somewhere between Victoria and Pimlico?) to be the next Northbound train but there was a signal problem, and the line became blocked. [snip] Two questions for those "in the know": 1. Was it inevitable that there would be difficulty in the Southbound train trying to travel North out of the Southbound platform? For example, maybe this was impossible because the next following Southbound train was in block and therefore preventing any other train from "reversing" into its block, even if only to use the cross-over to the Northbound? If so, why did they even attempt to do so? I would say it was not inevitable that the attempt to run north from the s/b platform would fail because of the failure at the sidings. The two ends of the station should run independently of each other. It sounds to me, and I cannot recall what was in the internal daily report, that there was a second failure that then prevented the intended recovery strategy from working. It is the most sensible strategy at Victoria if you are in the position of having the two sidings out of service to the south because you can't get trains back out on to the n/b tracks. There is no point in sending trains to Brixton because you will end up with a huge jam and given past incidents about trains stuck in tunnels great attention is now paid to ensuring trains do not become stuck between stations. 2. How on Earth could such a localised problem on a section South of Victoria effectively paralyse the entire line in both directions? Aren't there procedures in place to allow, for example (as presumably was attempted here), turning trains at Victoria and then continuing a Victoria - Walthamstow service, cutting out the Brixton section? The decision to suspend is often the logical consequence when somewhere like Victoria fails. It is so crucial to the line's operation that you have to suspend, get the power off and allow the repair staff on to track to undertake repairs. The other issue is traction current sections which may not align with where the turnbacks / crossovers are. Therefore you may need to suspend over a larger area to get the power off. Another point is that while loads of people are inconvenienced when a line suspends it does provide a level of certainty about travel options - i.e. the line is NOT running rather than it "might, possibly be running to somewhere on the line at some point in time". I know this seems perverse if you want to use the line but at least you are "forced" to think about using another route. If it's any consolation I hate it when the Vic Line falls over like this as it's the main tube line to get me home. I do have about 10 contingency routes "up my sleeve" so I can keep moving if the worst happens. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
In article .com,
Boltar wrote: Thank god the builders of the JLE had the forsight to put in lots of crossovers so the nonense we have to put up with on other lines whereby huge swathes of the line is closed simply because of a lack of crossovers to reverse trains at is mitigated. I sometimes wonder if it was lack of money or lack of foresight that caused so few to be built in the underground sections of tube lines and in cases where there was deliberate removal of them such as at Covent Garden on the piccadilly and Archway on the northern, whether just plain stupidity was involved. In those cases, it was cost cutting. It's cheaper to maintain 'plain' line than a set of points. I understand the LuL is reversing this, because they've realized that the operational flexability is worth the cost. However, the Archway still has a reversing siding - I was annoyed the other day when the train that would have taken me to the delights of Church End reversed there. -- RIP Morph (1977-2005) |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Boltar wrote:
Clive D. W. Feather wrote: It's possible that the line was cut back to Warren Street - Walthamstow; IIRC, Warren Street is the next crossover back. Thank god the builders of the JLE had the forsight to put in lots of crossovers so the nonense we have to put up with on other lines whereby huge swathes of the line is closed simply because of a lack of crossovers to reverse trains at is mitigated. It's certainly a good thing that the JLE is built to a high level of flexibility, but the Victoria line, which is what we were talking about here, isn't actually that bad: you can reverse at Victoria, Warren Street, King's Cross, Highbury & Islington and Seven Sisters, five out of the line's sixteen stations! Hmm. Can you actually reverse at H&I? There's a connection that should allow it, according to the maps, but i've never heard of it happening. And can you reverse in both directions at Victoria, Warren Street and Seven Sisters? Again, the tracks would allow it, but what about the signalling? Or is it all done manually? tom -- I content myself with the Speculative part [...], I care not for the Practick. I seldom bring any thing to use, 'tis not my way. Knowledge is my ultimate end. -- Sir Nicholas Gimcrack |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:25:25 +0000, Tom Anderson
wrote: On Fri, 25 Nov 2005, Boltar wrote: Clive D. W. Feather wrote: It's possible that the line was cut back to Warren Street - Walthamstow; IIRC, Warren Street is the next crossover back. Thank god the builders of the JLE had the forsight to put in lots of crossovers so the nonense we have to put up with on other lines whereby huge swathes of the line is closed simply because of a lack of crossovers to reverse trains at is mitigated. It's certainly a good thing that the JLE is built to a high level of flexibility, but the Victoria line, which is what we were talking about here, isn't actually that bad: you can reverse at Victoria, Warren Street, King's Cross, Highbury & Islington and Seven Sisters, five out of the line's sixteen stations! Hmm. Can you actually reverse at H&I? There's a connection that should allow it, according to the maps, but i've never heard of it happening. Reversal at Highbury certainly is done - usually if the line is suspended due to an incident south of there. And can you reverse in both directions at Victoria, Warren Street and Seven Sisters? Again, the tracks would allow it, but what about the signalling? Or is it all done manually? Victoria is principally a south to north reversal - either via the sidings to the south or the crossover. In theory you could run a train north out of the n/b and reverse back over the crossover into the s/b but I've never heard of that being done. Warren St is south to north. I've never heard of it being done in the reverse direction. Seven Sisters - typically north to south via the sidings / depot road. If a train fails in the s/b platform they can and do reverse it back into the sidings. You can't head south from the central terminating platform, only to the depot / sidings. I've also never heard of a n/b train having left the Walthamstow platform, heading north and then reversing back into the central terminating track at Seven Sisters. Whether the "rare" moves are prevented by the signalling set up I simply don't know. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Paul Corfield wrote:
Seven Sisters - typically north to south via the sidings / depot road. If a train fails in the s/b platform they can and do reverse it back into the sidings. You can't head south from the central terminating Just out of curiousity , how far do the sidings at Brixton go? I've heard the tunnel goes halfway to streatham (urban myth perhaps?) but how far does the track go? Can you fit many trains down there or is it used for storage of some sort? B2003 |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
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Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Hehehehe.... You hate it??
You want to right the IRFs...... Mal "Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On 24 Nov 2005 16:12:45 -0800, " wrote: On Wednesday morning, at aboutn 9.50a.m. there was some sort of Victoria Line problem on the Northbound line into Victoria - according to a station announcer a train was due to "come out of a siding" (somewhere between Victoria and Pimlico?) to be the next Northbound train but there was a signal problem, and the line became blocked. [snip] Two questions for those "in the know": 1. Was it inevitable that there would be difficulty in the Southbound train trying to travel North out of the Southbound platform? For example, maybe this was impossible because the next following Southbound train was in block and therefore preventing any other train from "reversing" into its block, even if only to use the cross-over to the Northbound? If so, why did they even attempt to do so? I would say it was not inevitable that the attempt to run north from the s/b platform would fail because of the failure at the sidings. The two ends of the station should run independently of each other. It sounds to me, and I cannot recall what was in the internal daily report, that there was a second failure that then prevented the intended recovery strategy from working. It is the most sensible strategy at Victoria if you are in the position of having the two sidings out of service to the south because you can't get trains back out on to the n/b tracks. There is no point in sending trains to Brixton because you will end up with a huge jam and given past incidents about trains stuck in tunnels great attention is now paid to ensuring trains do not become stuck between stations. 2. How on Earth could such a localised problem on a section South of Victoria effectively paralyse the entire line in both directions? Aren't there procedures in place to allow, for example (as presumably was attempted here), turning trains at Victoria and then continuing a Victoria - Walthamstow service, cutting out the Brixton section? The decision to suspend is often the logical consequence when somewhere like Victoria fails. It is so crucial to the line's operation that you have to suspend, get the power off and allow the repair staff on to track to undertake repairs. The other issue is traction current sections which may not align with where the turnbacks / crossovers are. Therefore you may need to suspend over a larger area to get the power off. Another point is that while loads of people are inconvenienced when a line suspends it does provide a level of certainty about travel options - i.e. the line is NOT running rather than it "might, possibly be running to somewhere on the line at some point in time". I know this seems perverse if you want to use the line but at least you are "forced" to think about using another route. If it's any consolation I hate it when the Vic Line falls over like this as it's the main tube line to get me home. I do have about 10 contingency routes "up my sleeve" so I can keep moving if the worst happens. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Urban myth i am afraid.
The sidings can take 1 train each. In an emergency a secind train can be fitted into the sidings but its not a signal move, its done under rule only under exceptional situations, usually to enable trains to enter Brixton and disgorge customers. It was done on during the 2 attacks. Its a shame the system at Vic failed to work correctly. If it had we could have had a service running. As it was, our private contractors couldn't find the problem....but thats another thread! Mal wrote in message ... Paul Corfield wrote: Seven Sisters - typically north to south via the sidings / depot road. If a train fails in the s/b platform they can and do reverse it back into the sidings. You can't head south from the central terminating Just out of curiousity , how far do the sidings at Brixton go? I've heard the tunnel goes halfway to streatham (urban myth perhaps?) but how far does the track go? Can you fit many trains down there or is it used for storage of some sort? B2003 |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:54:55 GMT, "Mal"
wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . On 24 Nov 2005 16:12:45 -0800, " wrote: If it's any consolation I hate it when the Vic Line falls over like this as it's the main tube line to get me home. I do have about 10 contingency routes "up my sleeve" so I can keep moving if the worst happens. Hehehehe.... You hate it?? You want to right the IRFs...... Well I get to read enough of them in JNP land that I don't really want to add in BCV as well. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
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Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Thats terrible.....i meant write....... bugger!
Mal "Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 18:54:55 GMT, "Mal" wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message . .. On 24 Nov 2005 16:12:45 -0800, " wrote: If it's any consolation I hate it when the Vic Line falls over like this as it's the main tube line to get me home. I do have about 10 contingency routes "up my sleeve" so I can keep moving if the worst happens. Hehehehe.... You hate it?? You want to right the IRFs...... Well I get to read enough of them in JNP land that I don't really want to add in BCV as well. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005, Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 03:25:25 +0000, Tom Anderson wrote: And can you reverse in both directions at Victoria, Warren Street and Seven Sisters? [snipped] Whether the "rare" moves are prevented by the signalling set up I simply don't know. Fair enough. Cheers for the info! tom -- This should be on ox.boring, shouldn't it? |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:38 +0000 (GMT Standard Time),
(Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: [Victoria line - Victoria line layout] Victoria was built with a scissors crossover at the North end, wasn;t it? Why on earth did they remove it? I think you're right. No idea why they were removed. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:38 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: [Victoria line - Victoria line layout] Victoria was built with a scissors crossover at the North end, wasn;t it? Why on earth did they remove it? I think you're right. No idea why they were removed. Because Victoria has got a second scissors crossover south of the station and two central reversing sidings. When the service is buggered from Victoria to Brixton it can be used to reverse the southbound service. The original scissors crossover (just like the one that used to be at Highbury) is thus redundant. http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Vi...en%20Pk-rm.gif refers. |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
In article .com,
(TheOneKEA) wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 21:38 +0000 (GMT Standard Time), (Colin Rosenstiel) wrote: [Victoria line - Victoria line layout] Victoria was built with a scissors crossover at the North end, wasn;t it? Why on earth did they remove it? I think you're right. No idea why they were removed. Because Victoria has got a second scissors crossover south of the station and two central reversing sidings. When the service is buggered from Victoria to Brixton it can be used to reverse the southbound service. The original scissors crossover (just like the one that used to be at Highbury) is thus redundant. http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Vi...en%20Pk-rm.gif refers. I appreciate it's redundant, but then it turns out not to be so on occasion when other equipment fails. Some redundancy makes it easier to cope with failures. My surprise is that the facility was removed having been installed. It would have cost very little just to leave it there. -- Colin Rosenstiel |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article .com, (TheOneKEA) wrote: http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/Vi...en%20Pk-rm.gif refers. I appreciate it's redundant, but then it turns out not to be so on occasion when other equipment fails. Some redundancy makes it easier to cope with failures. True, but in theory the simultaneous failure of the signalling in Victoria South Sidings and the trailing crossover north of the station should not happen. The fact that it did does not mean that having a scissors crossover in position would have changed anything. My surprise is that the facility was removed having been installed. It would have cost very little just to leave it there. Not necessarily - if that were the case the scissors crossover west of Liverpool Street (Central) would not have been simplified either, and yet it was - and Liverpool Street has the same arrangement as Victoria. |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
In article , Tom
Anderson writes And can you reverse in both directions at Victoria, Warren Street and Seven Sisters? Again, the tracks would allow it, but what about the signalling? From the diagram that Tubeprune posted, you can do it at Victoria: for north-to-south, run north out of the platform to behind VF16, then reverse into the southbound platform. Going to his site: you can do it at Warren Street. For north-to-south, run north out of the platform to behind VG8, then reverse into the southbound platform. For south-to-north, simply run directly over the crossover when given the road by VG4. Seven Sisters: you can only do south-to-north from platform 4. Either: * no route indicator at VL6, forward to VL7, change ends, signal VL20 takes you over the scissors to VL19 which protects the entrance to the southbound platform. * right-hand indicator at VL6, forward over the crossover to a fixed red light behind VL22A, change ends, signals VL22A and VL22B take you straight to VL19. North-to-south is harder but possible: into platform 5, change ends, signal VL8 takes you on to the depot exit road, over the scissors, and up to VL7. Change ends again, pass VL20 at danger with permission[*] and run forward to the fixed red light at the end of platform 4. Change ends a final time and depart normally (VL6 with left-hand junction indicator). [*] VL20 is not shown as having a junction indicator. I'm assuming, therefore, that the only route from it leads to VL19. It could be, however, that the only route leads to platform 4. In which case the first of my south-to-north cases doesn't apply and north-to-south involves all signalled moves. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Victoria Line on Wednesday morning
In article , I wrote:
Seven Sisters: you can only do south-to-north from platform 4. Either: Checking an old rulebook, I have some amendments to make: * no route indicator at VL6, forward to VL7, change ends, signal VL20 takes you over the scissors to VL19 which protects the entrance to the southbound platform. * right-hand indicator at VL6, forward over the crossover to a fixed red light behind VL22A, change ends, signals VL22A and VL22B take you straight to VL19. This is correct, except that the fixed red is placed so that VL22A will be mid-train and can be ignored. North-to-south is harder but possible: into platform 5, change ends, signal VL8 takes you on to the depot exit road, over the scissors, and up to VL7. This is wrong. VL8 doesn't have a junction indicator, but nevertheless can clear for two routes: either to VL7 on the depot entry road (62 road) or to the fixed red on the depot exit road (63 road). VL22B also doesn't have an indicator but can clear for routes to either platform 4 (northbound) or 5 (southbound). So the north-to-south reversal is done by: into platform 5, change ends, VL8 takes you to the fixed red on 63 road, change ends, VL22B takes you over the crossover and into platform 4, change ends, depart normally (VL6 with left-hand indicator). [*] VL20 is not shown as having a junction indicator. I'm assuming, therefore, that the only route from it leads to VL19. This is correct. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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