Following from the Tower Bridge thread, can anybody explain to me the
logic that "unsigned roads are subject to a 30mph limit" ?

I sort of remember this from when I took my driving test some 20+
years ago but thought it was stupid (and ambiguous). However, I keep
reading reports of people have been prosecuted for allegedly going too
fast where no speed limit was posted.

How can this be ? As far as I am concerned, whenever I see a speed
limit sign facing me, that speed limit is in force until I see another
one (lower or higher than it), right ?
(Obviously, some signs get vandalised and obscured)

but what on earth constitutes an "unsigned road" ? How far does one
have to travel on a road without seeing a sign, before declaring it
"unsigned" ? I seem to remember that this "default 30mph limit" only
applies (a) in urban areas, (b) where the street lamps are 185m
apart.

If I see a 50mph sign, travel for several km at say 47mph, and
an urban area (discuss definition) shows up, does that mean I have
to slow to 30mph. How do I know when I can speed up again ?

This seems a very poor definition.

Is it something like the NSL marker where, (for an ordinary car)
wherein the speed limit automatically changes 60/70 as the road becomes
single/dual carriageway ?

Richard [in PE12]

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

Following from the Tower Bridge thread, can anybody explain to me the
logic that "unsigned roads are subject to a 30mph limit" ?

I sort of remember this from when I took my driving test some 20+
years ago but thought it was stupid (and ambiguous). However, I keep
reading reports of people have been prosecuted for allegedly going too
fast where no speed limit was posted.

How can this be ? As far as I am concerned, whenever I see a speed
limit sign facing me, that speed limit is in force until I see another
one (lower or higher than it), right ?
(Obviously, some signs get vandalised and obscured)

but what on earth constitutes an "unsigned road" ? How far does one
have to travel on a road without seeing a sign, before declaring it
"unsigned" ? I seem to remember that this "default 30mph limit" only
applies (a) in urban areas, (b) where the street lamps are 185m
apart.

If I see a 50mph sign, travel for several km at say 47mph, and
an urban area (discuss definition) shows up, does that mean I have
to slow to 30mph. How do I know when I can speed up again ?

This seems a very poor definition.

Is it something like the NSL marker where, (for an ordinary car)
wherein the speed limit automatically changes 60/70 as the road becomes
single/dual carriageway ?

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and
unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show
otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters every so
often. If they aren't there, then the default applies, regardless of the
last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights, NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if
there aren't. Motorways are default 70, streetlights or not.

Adrian wrote in
70:

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class
C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless
signs show otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters
every so often. If they aren't there, then the default applies,
regardless of the last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights,
NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if there aren't. Motorways are default 70,
streetlights or not.

The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

Martin Underwood wrote:
Adrian wrote in
70:

Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class
C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless
signs show otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters
every so often. If they aren't there, then the default applies,
regardless of the last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights,
NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if there aren't. Motorways are default 70,
streetlights or not.

The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance). If the speed limt on that road
then changes to 30mph there will be '30' signs at the point of change.

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:29:12 -0000, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

Adrian wrote in
. 170:

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class
C and unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless
signs show otherwise)"

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters
every so often. If they aren't there, then the default applies,
regardless of the last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights,
NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if there aren't. Motorways are default 70,
streetlights or not.

The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

I thought that the street lights had to be closer together than 200
yards for it to be a de jure 30 limit. No street lights and you need
repeater 30 signs. No speed limit, or one above 30 and you need
repeater signs on the lamp posts.

Our County Council wouldn't move the 30 limit markers on one road, but
instead put a 40 limit to the end of the street lights, complete with
repeaters. The Parish Council have just improved our lane's street
lights, and extended them past the 30 limit, but haven't wired the
extra ones up yet. I'm waiting to see if they move the signs this
time.
--
Terry Harper
Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org

Terry Harper wrote in
:

On Sun, 27 Nov 2005 21:29:12 -0000, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:

I thought that the street lights had to be closer together than 200
yards for it to be a de jure 30 limit. No street lights and you need
repeater 30 signs. No speed limit, or one above 30 and you need
repeater signs on the lamp posts.

Gosh - is as far apart as 200 yards? I nearly said 50 yards: I'm glad I
didn't now. 200 yards is two "diagonal bar" signs on a motorway junction
countdown which is a hell of a long way - at 30 mph it would take you nearly
15 seconds. I'm sure most street lights in built-up areas pass much more
frequently than this. At 200 yards apart, there'd be a lot of dark space
between the pool of light from each street lamp. I presume the spacing is a
maximum of 200 yards apart *on the same side of the road* and that typically
street lights are interspersed on opposite sides of the road so in reality
there are lights (on one side of the road or the other) every 100 yards.

I'll check my HC tomorrow - and pace out the spacing of the street lights on
my road when I go to post a letter.

What are the rules about the visibility of speed limit signs? Even in
November, with few leaves on the trees, there are several signs which you
can only see when you get very close: too close really to slow down safely
from 60 to 30 in the remaining distance, even though you can see the road
much further ahead. I wish all speed limit reduction signs, especially going
from 60 to 40 or 30, were preceded by 300, 200, 100 yard countdown markers
to help judge the point at which you need to reach the lower speed. Even on
roads that I drive every day, where I think "I know there's a 30 limit
coming up soon" it's difficult to locate the exact point without either
overshooting it or slowing down unnecessarily early. I remember seeing the
3,2,1 countdown idea (either as signs or as white lines across the road)
proposed in the AA Magazine "Drive" many years ago. It's a shame no-one
picked the idea up and made it law.

In message . 170, at
21:19:04 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, Adrian remarked:
Endymion Ponsonby-Withermoor III ) gurgled happily, sounding much
like they were saying :

Following from the Tower Bridge thread, can anybody explain to me the
logic that "unsigned roads are subject to a 30mph limit" ?

I sort of remember this from when I took my driving test some 20+
years ago but thought it was stupid (and ambiguous). However, I keep
reading reports of people have been prosecuted for allegedly going too
fast where no speed limit was posted.

How can this be ? As far as I am concerned, whenever I see a speed
limit sign facing me, that speed limit is in force until I see another
one (lower or higher than it), right ?
(Obviously, some signs get vandalised and obscured)

but what on earth constitutes an "unsigned road" ? How far does one
have to travel on a road without seeing a sign, before declaring it
"unsigned" ? I seem to remember that this "default 30mph limit" only
applies (a) in urban areas, (b) where the street lamps are 185m
apart.

If I see a 50mph sign, travel for several km at say 47mph, and
an urban area (discuss definition) shows up, does that mean I have
to slow to 30mph. How do I know when I can speed up again ?

This seems a very poor definition.

Is it something like the NSL marker where, (for an ordinary car)
wherein the speed limit automatically changes 60/70 as the road becomes
single/dual carriageway ?

Repeater signs.
From the bottom of the speed limit table in HC103 - "The 30 mph limit
applies to all traffic on all roads in England and Wales (only Class C and
unclassified roads in Scotland) with street lighting unless signs show
otherwise)"

Although you need to be careful as to what constitutes "Street
lighting". Having a few lights along the edge of the street may or may
not be "street lighting". It depends how far they are apart, and how
long a stretch of road is illuminated.

Basically, all speed limits except the default must have repeaters every so
often. If they aren't there, then the default applies, regardless of the
last "big" sign. That's 30 if there's streetlights, NSL (60 S/C, 70 D/C) if
there aren't. Motorways are default 70, streetlights or not.

There are many places on roads where NSL applies, and upon which you can
encounter isolated junctions with street lighting (it often happens
where an unlit bypass has a junction with the "old" road through a
village). But they rarely trigger an automatic 30mph limit for that
short stretch of the road.

--
Roland Perry

In message .com, at
14:07:31 on Sun, 27 Nov 2005, umpston remarked:
The difficulty is the definition of the term "street lighting": it means
that the lights are closer together than some cut-off distance (can't be
arsed to check the distance: my HC is in the car). As you are driving past
them, try judging whether the lights are closer than this distance (and so
the limit is 30 mph) or whether they are just further apart than this
distance (and hence the limit is 60). On a major road with more than one
lane you can easily think that 60/70 would be appropriate (or at least that
it's safe to drive at 40 or 50), even though there are houses some distance
away from the road, separated by service roads on either side.

If you are a on a road of that kind with a speed limit other than 30mph
there will be repeater signs at intervals (can't be bothered to look up
the guidance on the interval distance).

Not if the interval at which you repeaters have to be installed is less
than the length of lit road!

One of the things I've always wondered about is how these various
"lengths" are defined. For example, if a road has such a length of
lighting up to a lit roundabout over a more major road, and then another
short stretch of lit road the other side. Is that three sections of road
each of which has to meet the limits, or just one?

And when one such approach section suddenly gets "40" repeaters, does
that mean they've upped the limit from 30 to 40, or reduced it from 50
to 40?

--
Roland Perry

In message , at
00:42:59 on Mon, 28 Nov 2005, Martin Underwood remarked:

I presume the spacing is a maximum of 200 yards apart

The rules (which have rotted off the dtlr site according to the urlI
used to have) are almost certainly couched in metres. An up to date cite
for the exact numbers would be useful.

*on the same side of the road* and that typically
street lights are interspersed on opposite sides of the road so in reality
there are lights (on one side of the road or the other) every 100 yards.

That's a very good question. Similarly for lights on the verge
interspersed between the verge and a central reservation.

I'll check my HC tomorrow - and pace out the spacing of the street lights on
my road when I go to post a letter.

What are the rules about the visibility of speed limit signs? Even in
November, with few leaves on the trees, there are several signs which you
can only see when you get very close:

On the approach to the village I used to live in, the 30 sign was
entirely inside the (overgrown) hedge. There wasn't one the other side
of the road.
--
Roland Perry

In article ,
Martin Underwood writes
I remember seeing the
3,2,1 countdown idea (either as signs or as white lines across the road)
proposed in the AA Magazine "Drive" many years ago. It's a shame no-one
picked the idea up and made it law.

There are countdown signs on the approaches to some villages near where
I live: the usual diagonal stripes with a speed limit sign above, except
that the red ring is grey (presumably to stop it being a speed limit
sign).

I don't think they're necessary in most places, but they should be
provided where there are sighting issues.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
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Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
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