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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Oyster is not ITSO-compliant and the DfT, who pay the TOC bills, won't pay for non-ITSO-compliant kit. Figures. See my comments elsewhere - this is all "smoke and mirrors" from the TOCs. Luckily, moves to make Oyster ITSO-compliant seem to be progressing at last. But only off the back of the E Money contract that TfL are letting which will exploit the Oyster card holding base. There are ITSO compatible cards and readers being trialled on a number of bus services in West London at present. This is not funded by government but by TfL. The equipment is also provided by the great evil, money grabbing Transys company who, of course, have no interest in ITSO compatibility! ITSO compatible equipment will be funded commercially off the back of a TfL initiative. There is no need for TfL to be doing any of this. I'd be interested to see if the TOCs will be prepared to "take a risk" about co-operating with the wider scheme or whether they will still lock themselves away in their little insular world of 7 year franchises pretending the real world isn't outside. The TOCs need to "grow up" and understand where their best interests lie. Being awkward about a major ticketing initiative in the country's capital city is not the way to go about things, IMO. http://www.londonconnects.gov.uk/_db...rities_v6a.doc is quite an interesting document listing the various smartcard projects for the London boroughs, including possible integration with Oystercard and ITSO. It also comments on the various smartcard technologies. In particular, it says that MiFare cards are not considered to be very secure, and would not be used in an e-money application. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
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Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 00:02:56 +0000, Arthur Figgis
] wrote: On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 18:20:56 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: The government could make the TOCs adopt Oyster or any form of Smartcard technology tomorrow if it was so minded. But could it (short of passing a new law or paying all the costs), if it (presumably) isn't in the franchise agreements? If the TOCs have all reached the same conclusion not to fit it, might this not tell us something about whether it is worth the TOCs' while to do it? Well it does not appear to be in the franchise agreements or else it would be announced when they are awarded. I think it is fair to say that government pays a very hefty slice of any rail franchise's costs. As the paymaster and the specifier of the service the government could fix this overnight. The problem with the TOCs is that they live or die by their cost and revenue base. They have no assets. Therefore anything that they perceive will raise their costs or damage their revenue base they will not touch. TfL has offered to deal with the cost element - up to a point - while the TOCs seem unable to decide if products like Pre-Pay are an useful addition to their product range. Similarly they seem uninterested in the additional flexibility that Smartcard could bring them alongside the usage info generated via the card validation process. They want 100% guarantees that they can't lose out - that isn't possible in my view and therefore they have obviously concluded they aren't prepared to take the risk of adopting the technology. As I have said already the only person who loses is the customer. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
"james007" wrote in message roups.com... Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard? Have had a look ... The logic that you "can't buy a travelcard if you only travel in zone 1" isn't exactly true since the obvious outcome of the new fare structure is that people who just travel in zone 1 will now have to buy a zones 1 and 2 travelcard, albeit at an increase of 20% on the previous year's zone 1 only cost. Whether this is economic depends on your number of separate journeys per day, for example I get a tube and bus in each direction every day so the PAYG option is unlikely to be any cheaper. P |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On Fri, 06 Jan 2006 17:50:55 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote: Well it does not appear to be in the franchise agreements or else it would be announced when they are awarded. I think it is fair to say that government pays a very hefty slice of any rail franchise's costs. Except those that pay a premium (eg Thameslink). As the paymaster and the specifier of the service the government could fix this overnight. If the government was willing to pay. If it isn't, the TOCs can just say "it's not in the contract, so if you want it, you pay for it". The problem with the TOCs is that they live or die by their cost and revenue base. They have no assets. Therefore anything that they perceive will raise their costs or damage their revenue base they will not touch. TfL has offered to deal with the cost element - up to a point - Maybe the point is too low! while the TOCs seem unable to decide if products like Pre-Pay are an useful addition to their product range. Similarly they seem uninterested in the additional flexibility that Smartcard could bring them alongside the usage info generated via the card validation process. They want 100% guarantees that they can't lose out - that isn't possible in my view and therefore they have obviously concluded they aren't prepared to take the risk of adopting the technology. But as you say, they have no assets, and no incentive to take risks. I can see why TOCs could be concerned about getting themselves into a situation where they are expected to pay to fit two new systems, when their business models and franchise premia or subsidy profiles are based on the existing systems only. As I have said already the only person who loses is the customer. I doubt whoever dreamed up the fragmentation of the railways even considered them. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Barry Salter wrote:
snip Fair enough. I stand corrected. I was thrown by the apparent surprise of some of the staff at Victoria when they saw the 2006 "Fare Pal" leaflets... Come on, you don't expect that Southern actually communicates their fares policy to their staff now do you! I don't know if they've been corrected, but there were some woeful Southern posters detailing all the new South London fares that were full of inaccuracies (including a mention of the previously unknown Cheap Day Travelcard). Whoever wrote it was very muddled, and whoever proof read it was no member of MENSA. I was going to post about it here but forgot about it until just now. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On 3 Jan 2006 09:53:14 -0800, "Richard Adamfi"
wrote: Oyster Pre-Pay is only valid on the following National Rail lines: Amersham to Marylebone Finsbury Park to King's Cross/Moorgate Harrow & Wealdstone to Euston (but not at Kilburn High Road/South Hampstead) Kentish Town to Moorgate/Elephant & Castle/London Bridge Liverpool Street to Walthamstow Central Tottenham Hale/Seven Sisters (but not at intermediate stations) Richmond to Gunnersbury Stratford to Canning Town Stratford to Liverpool Street Upminster to Fenchurch Street/Liverpool Street via Barking (but not at Forest Gate/Maryland) West Ruislip/South Ruislip to Marylebone (but not at intermediate stations) To help people understand this, wouldn't it be a good idea to include all these lines in the Tube map? |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
TKD wrote:
Sorry, I thought you can put 1-day Travelcards on prepay. This is what the TFL website says:- "During any 24-hour period from 0430 to 0430 the following day, you will never pay more than 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard price for all your Oyster single journeys in Zones 1-6 or we will refund the difference. " I read this as meaning that if I make dozens of journeys within, say Zones 1 and 2 in 1 day, then my Oystercard would be charged the equivalent of a 1-day Travelcard for Zones 1 & 2, less 50 pence. Is that not the same, in all but name, as buying a 1-day Travelcard on Prepay? Depends if you think the capped Oyster fare that is valid on only some National Rail lines is the same, in all but name, as a 1-day travelcard. A capped Oyster card (i.e. an Oyster card being used in it's Pre Pay guise which has reached a daily cap) is *not* a Day Travelcard - this needs to be made crystal clear. The fact that the capped fare is 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard should help to make clear this distinction (the 50p differential did not exist in 2005's fares). It also reflects that with a capped Oyster card you get less - i.e. you can't use most National Rail services. The use of the word 'equivalent' when comparing Day Travelcards and capped Oyster cards could be argued to be a bit misleading - the two fares are comparable, but not equal. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Mizter T wrote:
Depends if you think the capped Oyster fare that is valid on only some National Rail lines is the same, in all but name, as a 1-day travelcard. A capped Oyster card (i.e. an Oyster card being used in it's Pre Pay guise which has reached a daily cap) is *not* a Day Travelcard - this needs to be made crystal clear. The fact that the capped fare is 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard should help to make clear this distinction (the 50p differential did not exist in 2005's fares). But this could just as easily be the difference between payment methods, trying to encourage people onto Oyster. It also reflects that with a capped Oyster card you get less - i.e. you can't use most National Rail services. 50p is a pathetic discount, especially when there are bigger discounts for straightforward fares on Oyster instead of cash. |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Mizter T wrote: Depends if you think the capped Oyster fare that is valid on only some National Rail lines is the same, in all but name, as a 1-day travelcard. A capped Oyster card (i.e. an Oyster card being used in it's Pre Pay guise which has reached a daily cap) is *not* a Day Travelcard - this needs to be made crystal clear. The fact that the capped fare is 50p less than the equivalent Day Travelcard should help to make clear this distinction (the 50p differential did not exist in 2005's fares). But this could just as easily be the difference between payment methods, trying to encourage people onto Oyster. True - but I still think it's a better situation than last year when all the off-peak Oyster capping levels were set at the same amount as the 'equivalent' Day Travelcard (with the exception of the Zone 1-6 cap, which was 30p less than the Z1-6 Day Travelcard). The price differential can be seen to suggest that the two products are different. I absolutely take your point that the lower price could also merely be seen as a way of rewarding passengers for choosing Oyster over paper tickets, as is the case with both Tube and bus fares. However it's also preferable that there is a price difference between the two products given that you get less with a capped Oyster card than with a Day Travelcard - see my next point... It also reflects that with a capped Oyster card you get less - i.e. you can't use most National Rail services. 50p is a pathetic discount, especially when there are bigger discounts for straightforward fares on Oyster instead of cash. Whether 50p is a good enough discount or not is indeed a matter that's up for debate. I guess one argument for keeping the cost of a capped Oyster card close to that of a Day Travelcard could lie in the fact that TfL hopes to get National Rail to start accepting Oyster Pre Pay across London. If and when that happens then a capped Oyster card would indeed be the effective equivalent of a Day Travelcard (i.e. valid on NR) - and TfL wouldn't want to shock the punters by suddenly hiking the capping levels to the same cost as Day Travelcards. Of course, there would also be the obvious opportunity for the capped Oyster Day Travelcard to be cheaper than it's paper brother, the printed Day Travelcard. Another, simpler, explaination for the "pathetic discount" as you put it is that TfL wants (or needs) the revenue. This debate will rumble on and on. However the fact that a Day Travelcard and a capped Oyster card are not one and the same thing, however much people think this is stupid/annoying etc, is nontheless a fact. Anyone who comes to uk.t.l confused about this should, one hopes, come away enlightened. Or if not enlightened, at least aware of this fact! |
Is pay-per-use Oystercard cheaper than... an annual travelcard?
On 12 Jan 2006 09:30:27 -0800, "Mizter T" wrote:
I absolutely take your point that the lower price could also merely be seen as a way of rewarding passengers for choosing Oyster over paper tickets, as is the case with both Tube and bus fares. However it's also preferable that there is a price difference between the two products given that you get less with a capped Oyster card than with a Day Travelcard - see my next point... We are not rewarded for using Oyster. This is considered the standard fare. We are charged a premium for buying cash tickets. |
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