"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
Chris Tolley wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:

I must check with a cooleague

cooleague: n. 1. a fellow worker whose company one enjoys.

OED please note.

fx pokes tongue out

Nice one.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Early Doctor Who not recorded live [Was: "Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote:

It is an urban myth that Doctor Who ever went out live.

It certainly went out live in the very early years

Oh no it didn't (and I've read more than enough books on the topic to
prove it). 'Quatermass' and various plays went out live but 'Doctor
Who' never did.

I must check with a cooleague who worked on the early episodes. Can't
contact him at the moment as he is somewhere in Brazil!

I wouldn't believe everything you read in books about Dr Who...

Given that many are written by researchers who have accessed the BBC's
files, checking and cross checking the studio dates, internal memos and so
forth. The recording schedules are in existance, the tape usages are, a few
of the early episodes transmitted from film recordings still exist in the
Film Library. The evidence is overwhelming.



Given I appear in at least one of those books, I can vouch for there being
certain rather dodgy items in some of them :-)

The point about film recording is that it was often used to archive live
programmes, and for resale to countries that didn't have VT machines. The
existence of a film recording is no guarantee the original programme was
either txed live or recorded first.

I tried asking on a forum of my colleagues and got the following answer: What
is live... time is just another dimension in space.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
Ian Jelf wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
The only death I've heard of in a BBC studio was a messenger who had a
heart attack during a live programme.

YTV in Leeds famously had a guest die on their afternoon chat show
"Calendar People" in the seventies. (This was the same programme - but
not edition - which saw Richard Whiteley's famous encounter with a
ferret. I'm trying really hard to come up with a railway or London
transport connection here but can't!)

I can help you there, the only time I saw Richard Whitely was on a train.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
Paul Terry wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes

It certainly went out live in the very early years, most BBC programmes did.

According to ...
http://www.relativedimensions.co.uk/newman.html

it was recorded on videotape (which was indeed unusual in the UK back
then). Almost certainly they would have used Ampex Quad machines, which
the beeb were just starting to employ, following the failure of their
own "VERA" video-taping system.

IIRC VERA was a wire-recording system with the reels rotating at a ferocious
speed. One day a spool came off the hub and went right through the wall of
the recording booth.


I can't be certain if that URL is right, but it seems very likely - the
quality of the early episodes matches the very poor reproduction of
early Quads (nowhere near as good as film),

Even the later ones were never really that good. Recently watched a DVD of
Yes Minister and was appalled at how soft the pictures were.

and they would already have been committed to using recording for the
title sequence and for the trailers (it was one of the very few programmes
to have had trailers back in them days).


--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:56:13 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Even the later ones were never really that good. Recently watched a DVD of
Yes Minister and was appalled at how soft the pictures were.


Ahh but in what format(s) had the images languished all those years?

One of the old timers I worked with said you could get better pictures
out of a quad VTR than went in. ;-)

FWIR quad VTRs could introduce a variety of scalloping/banding type
artifacts if they were badly adjusted or worn, but overall soft
shouldn't happen. That sounds like it's been recorded on a low band
helical scan format at some stage.

DG

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:


"M. J. Powell" wrote in message
...

Was that the one where an actor died on the set and the others ad
libbed
around his part? The sets were in the studio, but as a number of
parallel tunnels. It went out live.

It is an urban myth that Doctor Who ever went out live. It was simply
recorded "as live" for the first few years due to the difficulties in
videotape editing.

It certainly went out live in the very early years, most BBC programmes
did.
[...] The reason being to do with studio scheduling rather than
editing.

I'm afraid the BBC's own paperwork is fairly conclusive, as well as
interviews with Verity Lambert, the show's first producer. Every episode of
Doctor Who was pre-recorded to (mostly to video tape) at least a week before
transmission. It was curious, however, how this progressed in technique over
time. At the very beginning, episodes were recorded on a one-at-a-time
basis. The recording was made "as live" (with as few breaks in recording as
possible). Certain scenes were pre-filmed, and fed in where required to
smooth the process (Though the very first episode, "An Unearthly Child",
with what appear to be complex pre-films for its flashbacks were actually
achieved by clever direction meaning the actors who were on one set only had
to provide voiceovers for the flashbacks), but actual edits were extremely
rare in the first series. This was due to the only way of editing being to
physically cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly Child"
contains one edit approximately half-way through.

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall that
it started in the middle of the third series.

One serial ("Spearhead From Space", the opening story of the seventh series)
was shot on entirely on film. Not only was this Jon Pertwee's debut, it was
also the first Doctor Who serial to be made in colour. The reason for
shooting on film, however, was not because it was deemed "special", but
because a studio strike meant the serial had to be remounted entirely on
location.

Ironically, the first serial to use outside broadcast taping was Tom Baker's
first story, "Robot", again not because of the debut but because a large
amount of CSO ("blue screen", which was actually yellow for this story) was
required, and CSOing a video image onto film looks rather ropey (see
"Invasion of the Dinosaurs" the year before).

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better used of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though in at
least two instances, this was in error). Most episodes from this era have
been restored either from overseas film prints, or in some cases from NTSC
transmission tapes and, even more curiously, from home recordings. At least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

As for the reason why the BBC chose to pre-record Who from the outset: who
knows? As has been pointed out, this was certainly not the norm at the time.
It may be that it was felt that with the requirement for some special
effects, a pre-record was necessary. It is hard to imagine how a
roll-back-and-mix effect (such as the TARDIS de/re-materializing) would be
achieved live.


--
Ronnie
--
Have a great day...
....Have a Great Central day.
www.greatcentralrailway.com

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Ronnie Clark wrote:

I'm afraid the BBC's own paperwork is fairly conclusive, as well as
interviews with Verity Lambert, the show's first producer. Every episode
of
Doctor Who was pre-recorded to (mostly to video tape) at least a week
before
transmission. It was curious, however, how this progressed in technique
over
time. At the very beginning, episodes were recorded on a one-at-a-time
basis. The recording was made "as live" (with as few breaks in recording
as
possible). Certain scenes were pre-filmed, and fed in where required to
smooth the process (Though the very first episode, "An Unearthly Child",
with what appear to be complex pre-films for its flashbacks were actually
achieved by clever direction meaning the actors who were on one set only
had
to provide voiceovers for the flashbacks), but actual edits were extremely
rare in the first series. This was due to the only way of editing being to
physically cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly
Child"
contains one edit approximately half-way through.

There was actually another method of editing available as well. An episode
would be recorded not on videotape but as a 35mm film recording, which could
then be edited by splicing. In the later story "Planet of Giants" two
videotaped episodes were cut down to one for transmission by transferring
them to film and cutting (and the final episode has a lot of scene changes
where the cast have moved - something else that shows up front that the
episode was prerecorded).

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall that
it started in the middle of the third series.

They seem to have still been recording one episode at a time right up until
the end of the sixth series, and even in the next few years the doubling up
was mainly to save on the cost of storing sets. From about the seventh
series they seem to have been recorded on a stop start method.

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better used
of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though in
at
least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

Most episodes from this era have
been restored either from overseas film prints, or in some cases from NTSC
transmission tapes and, even more curiously, from home recordings. At
least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

Mind you from recollection the second series of Dad's Army was not
transferred either and yet two of the missing episodes turned up a few years
ago.

As for the reason why the BBC chose to pre-record Who from the outset: who
knows? As has been pointed out, this was certainly not the norm at the
time.

I was under the impression that by 1963 it *was* the norm for drama shows -
Z-Cars seems to have been regarded as unusual for still being live.

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Ronnie Clark wrote:

This was due to the only way of editing being to
physically cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly
Child"
contains one edit approximately half-way through.

There was actually another method of editing available as well. An episode
would be recorded not on videotape but as a 35mm film recording, which
could
then be edited by splicing. In the later story "Planet of Giants" two
videotaped episodes were cut down to one for transmission by transferring
them to film and cutting (and the final episode has a lot of scene changes
where the cast have moved - something else that shows up front that the
episode was prerecorded).

Ah, the old cheat :) My post was quite lengthy, and whilst I thought about
mentioning the re-jiggin of "Planet Of Giants", I couldn't be bothered :)


It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall
that
it started in the middle of the third series.

They seem to have still been recording one episode at a time right up
until
the end of the sixth series, and even in the next few years the doubling
up
was mainly to save on the cost of storing sets. From about the seventh
series they seem to have been recorded on a stop start method.

I think it became hit and miss. I recall a few early Pertwee stories were
one-at-a-time, notably "Spearhead From Space" (it probably proving cheaper
to just reshoot the overlap between episodes than splice in the same clip
from the previous episode.

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better
used
of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though in
at
least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4, featuring the first regeneration, was
kept in the archive along with the other three episodes of the story. It
only went missing after Blue Peter borrowed the tape to use the regeneration
clip.

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1 only went missing because
it was mistaken for 1968/9's "Invasion" episode 1. This was a moderately
easy mistake to make because, to keep the dinosaurs a secret, "Invasion of
the Dinosaurs" episode 1 was simply captioned as "Invasion" on screen. Ah
well. It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

At
least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

Mind you from recollection the second series of Dad's Army was not
transferred either and yet two of the missing episodes turned up a few
years
ago.

Well, it's quite surprising just what can show up at times... "The Feast Of
Steven" was an episode of the 12 part epic "The Daleks' Masterplan". Because
it was so lengthy, only one copy (IIRC) of the 11 part version (sans "The
Feast Of Steven") was made... Yet amazingly enough, three episodes from the
serial have now been returned!


--
Ronnie
--
Have a great day...
....Have a Great Central day.
www.greatcentralrailway.com

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
Derek ^ wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 17:56:13 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

Even the later ones were never really that good. Recently watched a DVD
of Yes Minister and was appalled at how soft the pictures were.


Ahh but in what format(s) had the images languished all those years?

I don't know, but assumed they were off the quad masters. The progs were
actually shot using 4-tube EMI 2001 cameras which were quite sharp, sharper
than the next generation of tube cameras that did away with the Y tube.


One of the old timers I worked with said you could get better pictures
out of a quad VTR than went in. ;-)

FWIR quad VTRs could introduce a variety of scalloping/banding type
artifacts if they were badly adjusted or worn,

Banding was, IIRC, the most common problem due to poor tracking of one (or
more) of the heads.

but overall soft shouldn't happen. That sounds like it's been recorded on a
low band helical scan format at some stage.


If so, someone wants a kicking.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:

[snip]

I'm afraid the BBC's own paperwork is fairly conclusive, as well as
interviews with Verity Lambert, the show's first producer. Every episode of
Doctor Who was pre-recorded to (mostly to video tape) at least a week
before transmission.

Don't be afraid, I have just heard from Paul Kay, an ex-senior cameraman who
worked on many of the early series that they were indeed all recorded.

It was curious, however, how this progressed in technique over time. At
the very beginning, episodes were recorded on a one-at-a-time basis. The
recording was made "as live" (with as few breaks in recording as possible).

Hence the stories Id heard about having to shoot round daleks stalling in the
middle of the studio floor.


Certain scenes were pre-filmed, and fed in where required to smooth the
process (Though the very first episode, "An Unearthly Child", with what
appear to be complex pre-films for its flashbacks were actually achieved by
clever direction meaning the actors who were on one set only had to provide
voiceovers for the flashbacks), but actual edits were extremely rare in the
first series. This was due to the only way of editing being to physically
cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly Child" contains
one edit approximately half-way through.

You had to coat the recorded side of the tape with a special fluid to show up
the recording tracks and then cut carefully between the tracks using a
special jig. Programmes were charged 50 quid an edit, which was a fortune in
those days.



It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made it
possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely recall that
it started in the middle of the third series.

Not quite sure what you mean by thos, presumably you are referring to the
advent of electronic editing.

[snip]

Ironically, the first serial to use outside broadcast taping was Tom
Baker's first story, "Robot", again not because of the debut but because a
large amount of CSO ("blue screen", which was actually yellow for this
story) was required, and CSOing a video image onto film looks rather ropey
(see "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" the year before).

We'd been using Yellow CSO for Dr Who for quite a lot of the Pertwee series
as well. The reason being that the Tardis was blue! I used to do the
electronic special effects for the programme and we had one episode that was
an absolute nightmare. It involved Katy Manning as the Dr's assistant. Katy
is blond and was wearing a yellow dress, gold make-up, gold tights and yellow
boots. She'd walk out of the Tardis and vanish! We kept having to switch
between blue and yellow CSO which involved physically swapping electronic
modules in the studio equipment bay during recording breaks, something
against BBC engineering guidelines.

[snip]

As for the reason why the BBC chose to pre-record Who from the outset: who
knows? As has been pointed out, this was certainly not the norm at the
time. It may be that it was felt that with the requirement for some special
effects, a pre-record was necessary. It is hard to imagine how a
roll-back-and-mix effect (such as the TARDIS de/re-materializing) would be
achieved live.


That is the most probable reason.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Ronnie Clark wrote:

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better
used of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though
in
at least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4, featuring the first regeneration, was
kept in the archive along with the other three episodes of the story. It
only went missing after Blue Peter borrowed the tape to use the
regeneration
clip.

Complete myth. The BBC did not have an "archive" until 1978. Before then its
collection was spread between the Film Library, the Engineering Department
(videotapes) and Enterprises (overseas sales).

The Tenth Planet 4 was *never* held by the Film Library (although for some
reason they accumulated copies of the other three episodes at various
points). So there was no copy for Blue Peter to lose - they got theirs from
Enterprises who were still selling the story the next year. The Film Library
did however have a copy of The Daleks' Master Plan 4 which was loaned to
Blue Peter and never returned. But this wasn't really "error" and it
certainly wasn't the original videotape.

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1 only went missing because
it was mistaken for 1968/9's "Invasion" episode 1. This was a moderately
easy mistake to make because, to keep the dinosaurs a secret, "Invasion of
the Dinosaurs" episode 1 was simply captioned as "Invasion" on screen. Ah
well.

No, this is another myth. The Invasion 1 had already been wiped. And tapes
were not wiped on the basis on onscreen title - the label would have shown
the full title, and it would have also been clear the tape was in colour.
The wiping appears to have been completely in order.

It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

Not true - the first episode of the following story (Death to the Daleks)
was also wiped, but later copies were returned - first a 525 NTSC copy from
Canada and then a 625 PAL copy from Dubai.

At least
one episode, 1965's "The Feast Of Steven", the only episode except for
2005's "Christmas Invasion" to premiere on Christmas Day, was never
transferred to film for overseas sale, and is therefore the most likely
candidate for "episode that will never be recovered".

Mind you from recollection the second series of Dad's Army was not
transferred either and yet two of the missing episodes turned up a few
years
ago.

Well, it's quite surprising just what can show up at times... "The Feast
Of
Steven" was an episode of the 12 part epic "The Daleks' Masterplan".
Because
it was so lengthy, only one copy (IIRC) of the 11 part version (sans "The
Feast Of Steven") was made... Yet amazingly enough, three episodes from
the
serial have now been returned!

I think more than one - BBC Enterprises would make master film negatives (1
copy) and strike positives as and when needed - at least one set was made to
send viewing prints to Australia (who declined to purchase). It's possible
other copies were made for various reasons - the copy of episode 4 that
wound up in the Film Library was probably a print made for internal
reference for one BBC department or another.

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Ronnie Clark wrote:

It is sad, but understandable, that the BBC did felt it was a better
used of
resources to tape over old programs in the 1970s. This was when most
of
the
original video tapes of Doctor Who from 1963-1972 were junked (though
in
at least two instances, this was in error).

What errors were these?

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4

Complete myth. The BBC did not have an "archive" until 1978. Before then
its
collection was spread between the Film Library, the Engineering Department
(videotapes) and Enterprises (overseas sales).

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1

No, this is another myth. The Invasion 1 had already been wiped. And tapes
were not wiped on the basis on onscreen title - the label would have shown
the full title, and it would have also been clear the tape was in colour.
The wiping appears to have been completely in order.

Well... These are both stories from the great Levine, so I should have
guessed that something wasn't right about them ;)


It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

Not true - the first episode of the following story (Death to the Daleks)
was also wiped, but later copies were returned - first a 525 NTSC copy
from
Canada and then a 625 PAL copy from Dubai.

I understood that "Death To The Daleks" 1 was 'mislaid' by Enterprises (who
to this day, as Worlwide, still haven't 'found' their copy) rather than
wiped. Is this not true?

Well, it's quite surprising just what can show up at times... "The Feast
Of
Steven" was an episode of the 12 part epic "The Daleks' Masterplan".
Because
it was so lengthy, only one copy (IIRC) of the 11 part version (sans
"The
Feast Of Steven") was made... Yet amazingly enough, three episodes from
the
serial have now been returned!

I think more than one - BBC Enterprises would make master film negatives
(1
copy) and strike positives as and when needed - at least one set was made
to
send viewing prints to Australia (who declined to purchase). It's possible
other copies were made for various reasons - the copy of episode 4 that
wound up in the Film Library was probably a print made for internal
reference for one BBC department or another.

It is probably the single positive I'm thinking of. I till find it hard to
believe that supposedly only one positive was made, though. A story with
"Daleks" in the title in 1965/1966?! In between the two Dalek motion
pictures?! Ah well.


--
Ronnie
--
Have a great day...
....Have a Great Central day.
www.greatcentralrailway.com

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

You had to coat the recorded side of the tape with a special fluid to show up
the recording tracks and then cut carefully between the tracks using a
special jig. Programmes were charged 50 quid an edit, which was a fortune in
those days.

"Producer's Choice" and each department running as a profit centre
even in those days?

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
In message
Ian Jelf wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
The only death I've heard of in a BBC studio was a messenger who had a
heart attack during a live programme.

YTV in Leeds famously had a guest die on their afternoon chat show
"Calendar People" in the seventies. (This was the same programme - but
not edition - which saw Richard Whiteley's famous encounter with a
ferret. I'm trying really hard to come up with a railway or London
transport connection here but can't!)

I can help you there, the only time I saw Richard Whitely was on a train.

And now I've thought of one as well. Richard Whiteley's first TV job
was with ITN who were then at television House on the corner of Kingsway
and Aldwych.......just across from Aldwych station and literally above
the Aldwych branch featured (or not) in "Death Line"!

We make a great team, Mr. Wall! :-))
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Ronnie Clark wrote:

1966's "The Tenth Planet" episode 4

Complete myth. The BBC did not have an "archive" until 1978. Before then
its
collection was spread between the Film Library, the Engineering
Department
(videotapes) and Enterprises (overseas sales).

And 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs" episode 1

No, this is another myth. The Invasion 1 had already been wiped. And
tapes
were not wiped on the basis on onscreen title - the label would have
shown
the full title, and it would have also been clear the tape was in colour.
The wiping appears to have been completely in order.

Well... These are both stories from the great Levine, so I should have
guessed that something wasn't right about them ;)

Both (along with others) have been well and truly debunked many times.

It was the very last (chronologically) episode to be junked, therefore
making series 12 (Tom Baker's first series) the earliest series not to
suffer from junkings.

Not true - the first episode of the following story (Death to the Daleks)
was also wiped, but later copies were returned - first a 525 NTSC copy
from
Canada and then a 625 PAL copy from Dubai.

I understood that "Death To The Daleks" 1 was 'mislaid' by Enterprises
(who
to this day, as Worlwide, still haven't 'found' their copy) rather than
wiped. Is this not true?

Curiously Enterprises were selling the Pertwee episodes in both PAL and NTSC
format in 1974, but four years later they never returned any videotapes. So
effectively *all* the Pertwee videotapes were "mislaid". About half of the
originals were still in the Engineering Department in 1978 when a change of
policy stopped the wipings and created the Archive. Death 1 was the latest
one missing.

Roughly speaking the sources for Doctor Who episodes currently existing (and
a lot of other shows as well) are as follows:

From within the BBC:

* Original PAL colour videotapes from the Engineering Department that had
not yet been wiped. (All the b/w videotapes were wiped by 1975.)
* Original film prints for the handful of stories either transmitted from
35mm telerecordings or shot entirely on film, that had been retained by the
BBC Film Library.
* Internal 16 mm film recording viewing prints for odd black and white
episodes that wound up in the Film Library.
* Black & White 16 mm film recordings made for overseas sales (of both the
b/w and colour years) that had not yet been junked by BBC Enterprises.

From outside:
* Black & white film recordings returned from a mixture of overseas
television stations, private collectors, engineers, found in BBC cupboards
and other places.
* PAL colour videotapes returned from overseas broadcasters in the same
format as the original.
* NTSC conversions from the US and Canada. A process called "Reverse
Standards Conversion" has been developed to restore the episodes to their
original quality
* Off air NTSC colour videotapes of broadcasts in the US and Canada. A lot
have been combined with the black and white prints to restore the colour.
* Plus a black & white PAL broadcast quality videotape that was combined
with the colour signal from an NTSC conversion.

I think more than one - BBC Enterprises would make master film negatives
(1
copy) and strike positives as and when needed - at least one set was made
to
send viewing prints to Australia (who declined to purchase). It's
possible
other copies were made for various reasons - the copy of episode 4 that
wound up in the Film Library was probably a print made for internal
reference for one BBC department or another.

It is probably the single positive I'm thinking of. I till find it hard to
believe that supposedly only one positive was made, though. A story with
"Daleks" in the title in 1965/1966?! In between the two Dalek motion
pictures?! Ah well.

Yes but was Dalekmania a phenomenon outside the UK at that time?

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Graeme Wall wrote in message
:

In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made
it possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely
recall that it started in the middle of the third series.

Not quite sure what you mean by this, presumably you are referring to
the advent of electronic editing.

What was it that precluded electronic editing by dubbing from one tape to
another, as they did until a few years ago? Was it simply that copying from
one tape to another in the early days brought the quality below acceptible
broadcast standards?

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
Laurence Payne wrote:

On Mon, 06 Feb 2006 20:47:19 +0000, Graeme Wall
wrote:

You had to coat the recorded side of the tape with a special fluid to
show up the recording tracks and then cut carefully between the tracks
using a special jig. Programmes were charged 50 quid an edit, which was
a fortune in those days.

"Producer's Choice" and each department running as a profit centre
even in those days?

Hardly, Birt hadn't been invented then. And would you kindly mind your
language on a family newsgroup :-)

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message , BH Williams
writes
In Tyne Tees we used to edit a football match review in a hurry on 2"
tape. I can't remember the name of the programme, maybe "the Big
Match".

Probably "Shoot!", TTTV's regional football programme from the early
sixties until 1982.

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
"BH Williams" wrote:

[snip]

In Tyne Tees we used to edit a football match review in a hurry on 2" tape.
I can't remember the name of the programme, maybe "the Big Match".

Anyway a famous local derby between Newcastle and Sunderland was edited
very fast, between the end of the programme and transmission, where we
developed the control track, cut bits out, and then left the only goal
hanging on the back of the door. (You could only see the content when you
ran it over the video heads.)

The Toon army never let us hear the end of that one!


You're lucky to be alive!

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
Ian Jelf wrote:

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
[snip]

I can help you there, the only time I saw Richard Whitely was on a train.

And now I've thought of one as well. Richard Whiteley's first TV job
was with ITN who were then at television House on the corner of Kingsway
and Aldwych.......just across from Aldwych station and literally above
the Aldwych branch featured (or not) in "Death Line"!

We make a great team, Mr. Wall! :-))

The Old Firm, established censored, Mr Jelf.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message , BH Williams
writes

"Graeme Wall" wrote in message
...
In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:

[snip]
....actual edits were extremely rare in the
first series. This was due to the only way of editing being to physically
cut the 2 inch tape and splice it together. "An Unearthly Child" contains
one edit approximately half-way through.

You had to coat the recorded side of the tape with a special fluid to show
up
the recording tracks and then cut carefully between the tracks using a
special jig. Programmes were charged 50 quid an edit, which was a fortune
in
those days.

In Tyne Tees we used to edit a football match review in a hurry on 2" tape.
I can't remember the name of the programme, maybe "the Big Match".

Anyway a famous local derby between Newcastle and Sunderland was edited very
fast, between the end of the programme and transmission, where we developed
the control track, cut bits out, and then left the only goal hanging on the
back of the door. (You could only see the content when you ran it over the
video heads.)

The Toon army never let us hear the end of that one!

Heh! TWW sent one 16mm film unit to a football match. All 4 goals came
when they were changing magazines.

Mike
--
M.J.Powell

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

On Mon, 6 Feb 2006 22:58:58 -0000, "Martin Underwood" a@b wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote in message
:

In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made
it possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely
recall that it started in the middle of the third series.

Not quite sure what you mean by this, presumably you are referring to
the advent of electronic editing.

What was it that precluded electronic editing by dubbing from one tape to
another, as they did until a few years ago? Was it simply that copying from
one tape to another in the early days brought the quality below acceptible
broadcast standards?


Not exactly.

It was that at the join the to get an imperceptible edit the sync
pulses had to be continuous, and take into account that Broadcast TV
used interlaced scanning with even and odd frames so a complete even
frame should be joined onto a complete odd frame, (& vica -versa) or a
disturbance would be apparent on viewer's sets, (18 million sets would
do a frame roll (at least) &/or display a noise band/ lose line hold.

The VTR's "control track" was also written onto the tape along with
the sound and video, this kept the heads running down the middle of
the tracks written on the tape, and a gap in this might mean the
playback VTR's servos went out of lock and the heads lost their
tracking taking some time, maybe a few seconds, to lock back in.

Also as the splice went through it 's possible that oxide/ adhesive
/clag would be ripped of the tape and cause a head clog. Video tape
was expensive but I doubt if a tape with a physical edit in it would
be re-used to record a new programme because of this risk.

I can't remember seeing physical videotape edits going through on the
telly, though "Non-Sync Cuts" were fairly common into the early '70s,
where millions of home TV's would Colour Kill, and Frame Roll,
especially cutting to/from inserts from Europe or Ireland.

Altogether Nasty.

When PAL colour first came along, that used vertical axis switching in
the colour signal, as well as frame interlacing, so it turned out that
there was a rotating sequence of 8 distinctive frame types, and edits
had to be made such as to preserve that sequence. that can only be
done electronically between two sources which can be synced up
together and IGWS for that matter are also in "colour sync" as well
as.

The signals had to be timed up to be accurate within the odd
microsecond or less, otherwise their would be a bigger and better, and
now *coloured* disturbance. It needed digital electronics to do that.
It can't be done by looking through a microscope, or by varying the
volts on an electric motor.

Perversely the French SECAM system was more rugged in this respect and
editing colour videotapes was simpler for them, they could just go
instantaeneously from play to record if they were B&W synchronous.

However, since their colour information was carried on an FM
subcarrier signals from 2 sources couldn't be simply added together,
(Effect smilar to 2 radio stations on top of one another) so their
vision mixers were more complicated and less satisfactory than ours,
having to decode the signal to RGB and re-encode at all positions in
between 0% and 100% on the fader.

That, at least, is some consolation.

DG

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

On Mon, 6 Feb 2006, www.waspies.net wrote:

The disused station area where the trogoldytes lived was absolutely
fascinating, does anyone know where it was?

Barking:)

Nah - surely it's RMT head office?

tom

--
In-jokes for out-casts

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Well, my two previous responses on this have evidently disappeared into
oblivion, so here goes again...

The one where the actor died during a live broadcast was an Armchair
Theatre production called "Underground" (broadcast November 28, 1958)
about nuclear war survivors. The actors were supposedly digging their
way out, and were "rotated out" to have more make-up progressively
applied so that they appeared dirtier as time went on. One of the
actors, Gareth Jones, complained of feeling unwell while off-set and
collapsed from a fatal heart attack. The script was hurriedly re-written
to cover his absence. Of note is the high quality of the other cast
members including Peter Bowles, Andrew Cruickshank and Warren Mitchell.

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

"Ian Jelf" wrote in message
...
In message , BH Williams
writes
In Tyne Tees we used to edit a football match review in a hurry on 2"
tape. I can't remember the name of the programme, maybe "the Big Match".

Probably "Shoot!", TTTV's regional football programme from the early
sixties until 1982.

--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk
It was whatever succeeded that, as Lynne started at TTTV in 1982- to keep
some semblance of railway interest, I should add that she's now in the
railway business..
Brian

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message
"Martin Underwood" a@b wrote:

Graeme Wall wrote in message
:

In message
"Ronnie Clark" wrote:

It was quite some time before more advanced editing techniques made
it possible to record a whole serial in one go, however I vaguely
recall that it started in the middle of the third series.

Not quite sure what you mean by this, presumably you are referring to
the advent of electronic editing.

What was it that precluded electronic editing by dubbing from one tape to
another, as they did until a few years ago? Was it simply that copying from
one tape to another in the early days brought the quality below acceptible
broadcast standards?



The 10 second run-up of a tape machine (or telecine) to achieve sync was a
problem until electronics were devised to enable the machines to go from play
to record on the fly at a predetermined point. Eventually Ampex devised a
quad machine that would do instant starts, first used on the Andre Previn
concerts.

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

Early Doctor Who not recorded live [Was: "Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Stephen Wilson wrote:

I think the confusion is down to way it's been described. Dr Who never went
out live, but due to the way it was recorded it was very much like a live
show. Scenes were recorded in order, there was little opportunity for
retakes, etc. So although it was all committed to tape before transmission,
the process for the actors, stage hands, etc. probably didn't differ much
from a show that did go out live.

Plus, I guess at the time that VT equipment and consumables were pretty
expensive, so wastage of tape had to be kept to a minimum for cost
reasons.

David Belcher

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message , Graeme Wall
writes
The 10 second run-up of a tape machine (or telecine) to achieve sync was a
problem until electronics were devised to enable the machines to go from play
to record on the fly at a predetermined point. Eventually Ampex devised a
quad machine that would do instant starts, first used on the Andre Previn
concerts.

I was at a loose end in South Kensington for a couple of hours last week
and went along to the Science Museum to pay my respects to "Rocket".
While mooching around I actually stumbled on one of these early (very
early as it turned out) Ampex Machines. Apparently
Associated-Rediffusion imported the first one from the US to the UK.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Ian Jelf wrote:

I was at a loose end in South Kensington for a couple of hours last
week and went along to the Science Museum to pay my respects to
"Rocket". While mooching around I actually stumbled on one of these
early (very early as it turned out) Ampex Machines.

If anyone else is old enough to grok the word-play - I once
saw a cartoon of the VERA equipment at the BBC, with the caption
"Someone isn't using Ampex".

Early Doctor Who not recorded live [Was: "Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

"Stephen Wilson" wrote in message
...
I think the confusion is down to way it's been described. Dr Who never
went out live, but due to the way it was recorded it was very much like a
live show. Scenes were recorded in order, there was little opportunity for
retakes, etc. So although it was all committed to tape before
transmission, the process for the actors, stage hands, etc. probably
didn't differ much from a show that did go out live.

That's called (at least in some countries) "live to tape", and is still
common in news and current affairs.


Daniel
--
Daniel Bowen, Melbourne, Australia
danielbowen at gmail dot com
http://www.danielbowen.com/

Early Doctor Who not recorded live [Was: "Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Given that many are written by researchers who have accessed the BBC's
files, checking and cross checking the studio dates, internal memos and so
forth. The recording schedules are in existance, the tape usages are, a
few of the early episodes transmitted from film recordings still exist in
the Film Library. The evidence is overwhelming.

I've often thought it amusing that so much paperwork is still kept in the
BBC archives about these shows, yet the shows themselves have been
lost/disposed of.


Daniel
--
Daniel Bowen, Melbourne, Australia
danielbowen at gmail dot com
http://www.danielbowen.com/

Early Doctor Who not recorded live [Was: "Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Daniel Bowen wrote:

I've often thought it amusing that so much paperwork is still kept in the
BBC archives about these shows, yet the shows themselves have been
lost/disposed of.

Yeah but from the perspective of the late 1960s/early 1970s the need for
paper trails was clear, the need to retain old programmes that were almost
certainly never going to be screened again and which were no longer sellable
was not.

Early Doctor Who not recorded live [Was: "Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In article ,
Daniel Bowen wrote:
"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Given that many are written by researchers who have accessed the BBC's
files, checking and cross checking the studio dates, internal memos and so
forth. The recording schedules are in existance, the tape usages are, a
few of the early episodes transmitted from film recordings still exist in
the Film Library. The evidence is overwhelming.

I've often thought it amusing that so much paperwork is still kept in the
BBC archives about these shows, yet the shows themselves have been
lost/disposed of.

Well..

1. paper was cheaper than videotape, back then
2. there's only limited scope for re-using paper that's been written
on, whereas a wiped tape was immediately free for re-use
3. you'll need the documentation for accounting and expenses,
but you don't need the actual programme...

Taken together, I'd reckon those three factors would account for
most of the mismatch ;)

--
Andy Breen ~ Not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales, Aberystwyth
Feng Shui: an ancient oriental art for extracting
money from the gullible (Martin Sinclair)

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

On Sun, 5 Feb 2006 21:23:03 -0000, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Chris Tolley wrote:

There was (so SWMBO tells me) a Doctor Who story set in a disused tube
stn,

From recollection three stories, though none feature disused stations.

Six, seven, or eight, depending on definitions, and how much actually
appears for it to count!

'The Dalek Invasion of Earth' made extensive use of the disused "Wood
Lane" station (also popular with 'The Tomorrow People'), just over the
road from TV Cent

http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...mtv/dwdioe.htm

The film version featured an anachronistic "Embankment" station:

http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...tv/d2150ad.htm

'The Chase' has a fleeting glimspe of "White City" station,
establishing Ian and Barbara's return to London:

http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...v/dwthcase.htm

In "The Web of Fear" (1968) the TARDIS materialises in the tube and finds
the network shut down and London evacuated due to an invasion by robotic
Yeti. A number of tube stations are seen, but all scenes were recorded in
studio (though the sets were so convincing that London Underground believed
otherwise!).

Some filming in the Greenwich Foot Tunnel, but otherwise sets
representing "Covent Garden," "Charing Cross" (the current
"Embankment"), "South Kensington," "Piccadilly Circus," the
"Bank"-"Monument" escalator link, and the WW2 Deep Level Shelter under
"Goodge Street":

http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...mtv/dwtwof.htm

London is evactuated again in 1974's "Invasion of the Dinosaurs", where the
monsters of the story's title have been transported back in time by renegade
scientists operating an a base beneath (I thin) Aldgate tube, accessed by a
lift in a broom cupboard.

Exteriors were shot at "Moorgate," but the station name is not
visible, although it was (presumably erroneously) on the SPFX model of
the same; the interior studio sets have LU roundels with a name
starting with "TRAF..." which could only be "Tragalgar Square" i.e.
the Bakerloo part of the current "Charing Cross." This makes perfect
sense in the context of it leading to the secret bunker under
Whitehall:

http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...mtv/dwiotd.htm

'The Sunmakers' was part-filmed in the Deep Level Shelter under
"Camden Town" station:

http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...lmtv/dwtsm.htm

The same location was also used in 'Survivors' ('The Lights of London'
#1&2, along with the Waterloo and City line platforms at "Bank"), and
the 'Blake's 7' episode 'Ultraworld' as the titular planet.

And in 1986's "The Trial of a Time Lord" the Doctor visits the future where
Earth has been devasted by a solar flare and survivors live in "Marb
station", a complex built in and beneath Marble Arch station (although the
set for the actual remains of the station bears little resemblence to Marble
Arch).

It will have to be a very dull day before I get round to going through
that story again!

Finally, the opening episode of the new series did have an indication
of an Underground station, but obviously completely fictional, it
being shot in Cardiff:

http://www.cwgcuser.org.uk/personal/...mtv/dwrose.htm

--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message , Nick Cooper
writes
Exteriors were shot at "Moorgate," but the station name is not visible,
although it was (presumably erroneously) on the SPFX model of the same;
the interior studio sets have LU roundels with a name starting with
"TRAF..." which could only be "Tragalgar Square" i.e. the Bakerloo part
of the current "Charing Cross." This makes perfect sense in the
context of it leading to the secret bunker under
Whitehall:

In the later novelisation of Invasion of the Dinosaurs, the station in
question is Westminster.
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006 14:28:33 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote:

In message , Nick Cooper
writes
Exteriors were shot at "Moorgate," but the station name is not visible,
although it was (presumably erroneously) on the SPFX model of the same;
the interior studio sets have LU roundels with a name starting with
"TRAF..." which could only be "Tragalgar Square" i.e. the Bakerloo part
of the current "Charing Cross." This makes perfect sense in the
context of it leading to the secret bunker under
Whitehall:

In the later novelisation of Invasion of the Dinosaurs, the station in
question is Westminster.

Yes, that is mentioned on the webpage, although of course it doesn't
really mean anything!
--
Nick Cooper

[Carefully remove the detonators from my e-mail address to reply!]

The London Underground at War, and in Films & TV:
http://www.nickcooper.org.uk/

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Ian Jelf wrote:

In the later novelisation of Invasion of the Dinosaurs, the station in
question is Westminster.

True but the novelisations often change things - Malcolm Hulke, who wrote
this one, was one of the most notorious for altering details where
necessary.

Early Doctor Who not recorded live [Was: "Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Daniel Bowen wrote:

That's called (at least in some countries) "live to tape", and is still
common in news and current affairs.


I love this aspect of Doctor Who - I think it contributes to the
aesthetics. Live TV drama is pretty much nonexistent these days, but I
find the 'almost live' quality in classic Who very exciting and
spontaneous. I get kind of a thrill when things go wrong - I've been
watching 'The Aztecs,' and it cracks me up no end when Hartnell and
William Russell keep stepping on each other's lines in Episode Two. I
understand why they wouldn't do 'live to tape' in this day and age, but
I miss it!

Michelle

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

In message c.uk
"Alan J. Flavell" wrote:

On Tue, 7 Feb 2006, Ian Jelf wrote:

I was at a loose end in South Kensington for a couple of hours last
week and went along to the Science Museum to pay my respects to
"Rocket". While mooching around I actually stumbled on one of these
early (very early as it turned out) Ampex Machines.

If anyone else is old enough to grok the word-play - I once
saw a cartoon of the VERA equipment at the BBC, with the caption
"Someone isn't using Ampex".

Hmmm!

--
Graeme Wall
This address is not read, substitute trains for rail.
Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html

"Death Line" 1972 (Film)
 

Graeme Wall wrote:

The 10 second run-up of a tape machine (or telecine) to achieve sync was a
problem until electronics were devised to enable the machines to go from play
to record on the fly at a predetermined point. Eventually Ampex devised a
quad machine that would do instant starts, first used on the Andre Previn
concerts.

Was that the AVR1?