Adrian wrote:

I must mis-remember the ones in Sheffield in the 70s, then...

Ah, yes, forgot those...

But the problem with them in London IS real - they are just far too long
for the traffic conditions. They cause chaos.

They cause changing expectations, but in time drivers (of the buses,
and of other vehicles) will get used to them, IMO, and the "chaos"
(which I believe to be overstated) will subside.

By that I mean shorter stopping times, and the practicalities of
driving a longer vehicle. We could also do with some junction changes
and bus stop layout changes, but that's a minor point, and also applies
to the Routemaster to longer OPO DD changes, e.g. on Oxford Street
where the bus stop layout seems illogical, but people ignored it for
years because they just boarded/alighted where they liked.

Neil

Colin Rosenstiel wrote in
:

In article . 170,
(Adrian) wrote:

So, perhaps, just maybe, the cyclist could *wait behind the bus* at
lights? Or is there some secret reason that I "wouldn't understand,
and should try some time" as to why that can't happen?

Given how much better a cyclist's standing start acceleration is than
that of a bus, why should they? When I wait beside or in front of a
bus at lights I am always well across the junction before the bus
gets near me.

Maybe if I drove a ****-hot sports car, capable of 0-60 in 2 seconds, I
should be allowed to go to the head of the queue as well for the same reason
;-)

I take your point about acceleration, but one of the problems that letting
cyclists go ahead causes is that although their 0-10 mph times may be better
than a bus, they cannot sustain that to the speed limit of the road (eg 30
mph), so any powered vehicle will only need to overtake them on the far side
of the junction.

Colin Rosenstiel wrote in
:

In article , a@b
(Martin Underwood) wrote:

Neil Williams wrote in message
:

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

The solution is to discontinue the cycle lane (with an implied give
way sign where it ends) for X yards before any junction or bus stop,
to give left-turning traffic to move over to the left kerb.

No. The answer, implemented somewhat inconsistently in London and
elsewhere, is advanced stop boxes for cyclists.

Only if the rule is that you cannot overtake vehicles on the left to reach
the advance stop box if it involves you doing so in the last few yards
before the junction where you may come in conflict with vehicles which
should, by rights, be allowed to position themselves properly for turning
left. In other words, if you are already at the head of the queue as you
approach the lights, you are allowed to move further forward than everyone
else to give you an advanced start at the lights but if you are not already
there you must wait your turn like everyone else. That's always assuming
that traffic lights apply to cyclists; the majority of cyclists in Oxford
seem to think that they are exempt from obeying traffic lights and zebra
crossings ;-)

But none of the places where I have found problems with bendibuses as
a cyclist involve them turning left anyway.

Oh, sorry. I thought this thread was about cyclists who had been injured or
killed by buses etc which were turning left (possibly without the driver
checking his left mirror) and hit cyclists trying illegally to overtake on
the left to go straight on.

In article ,
Martin Underwood wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote in
:
In article , a@b
(Martin Underwood) wrote:
Neil Williams wrote in message
:

The solution is to discontinue the cycle lane (with an implied give
way sign where it ends) for X yards before any junction or bus stop,
to give left-turning traffic to move over to the left kerb.

No. The answer, implemented somewhat inconsistently in London and
elsewhere, is advanced stop boxes for cyclists.

Only if the rule is that you cannot overtake vehicles on the left to reach
the advance stop box if it involves you doing so in the last few yards
before the junction where you may come in conflict with vehicles which
should, by rights, be allowed to position themselves properly for turning
left.

Most of the few Advanced Stop Lines I've noticed have a short stretch of
cycle lane leading up to them on the left of the road, which should allow
cyclists to reach the front safely and legally. The DfT website also
has illustrations of an ASL with a left-turning motor lane and a central
cycle lane leading up to a full width Advanced Stop Line.

Nick
--
So when is Tony Blair going to start treating *us* with respect ?

In article , Nick Leverton
writes

Most of the few Advanced Stop Lines I've noticed have a short stretch of
cycle lane leading up to them on the left of the road, which should allow
cyclists to reach the front safely and legally. The DfT website also
has illustrations of an ASL with a left-turning motor lane and a central
cycle lane leading up to a full width Advanced Stop Line.

For a week or so late last year there was higher than usual police
activity at the lights at Admiralty Arch entering Trafalgar Square. When
they weren't nicking cyclists for riding on the pavement, the policemen
usually encouraged the rest of us to budge up the short stretch of cycle
lane on the left toward the ASL.

--
congokid
Eating out in London? Read my tips...
http://congokid.com

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:09 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In a wide main road like Euston Road, a bendi-bus pulls in regardless of
cyclists riding where they should, close to the kerb. They are then
almost impossible to pass safely. I suggest you try it sometime instead
of pontificating.

Arguably anyone cycling along the Euston Road is asking for trouble,
given the bendy buses that use that road and the car and white vans
weaving about all over the place. There are plenty of much quieter
parallel roads to choose from for any cyclist that values their life,
even if a couple more junctions are involved and it takes a few
minuites extra!

In article ,
(Peter Frimberly) wrote:

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:09 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In a wide main road like Euston Road, a bendi-bus pulls in
regardless of cyclists riding where they should, close to the kerb.
They are then almost impossible to pass safely. I suggest you try it
sometime instead of pontificating.

Arguably anyone cycling along the Euston Road is asking for trouble,
given the bendy buses that use that road and the car and white vans
weaving about all over the place. There are plenty of much quieter
parallel roads to choose from for any cyclist that values their life,
even if a couple more junctions are involved and it takes a few
minuites extra!

Not between King's Cross station and Judd Street. Now, if Argyle St (I
thin that's the name) allowed two way cycling and a cycle route across
the Euston Road were signalled it would be easier but it would be too
complicated for Camden to provide cycling facilities that work in two
directions, apparently.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article ,
(Peter Frimberly) wrote:

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:09 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In a wide main road like Euston Road, a bendi-bus pulls in regardless
of cyclists riding where they should, close to the kerb. They are then
almost impossible to pass safely. I suggest you try it sometime
instead of pontificating.

Arguably anyone cycling along the Euston Road is asking for trouble,
given the bendy buses that use that road and the car and white vans
weaving about all over the place. There are plenty of much quieter
parallel roads to choose from for any cyclist that values their life,
even if a couple more junctions are involved and it takes a few
minuites extra!

Why on earth should we have to? The roads are as much ours as anyone's.

Not between King's Cross station and Judd Street.

This is quite true. If there was a way to get from the Caledonian Road
into town that didn't involve some bit of Euston Road or similar, and that
wasn't a massive detour, i'd gladly take it.

Now, if Argyle St (I thin that's the name) allowed two way cycling and a
cycle route across the Euston Road were signalled it would be easier but
it would be too complicated for Camden to provide cycling facilities
that work in two directions, apparently.

I think this is going to get a lot better when Midland Road is reopened -
there'll be a route round the back of King's Cross, via Goods Way /
Pancras Road, then Midland Road, then straight across to Judd Street. This
all hinges on Midland Road being two-way, or at least having a contraflow
cycle lane, of course, and i've no idea if that will be the case.

I have to say, this whole area is mind-buggeringly awful for cyclists.
Pretty much all the way from Copenhagen Street to Tavistock Place is badly
laid out and in an absolute state. I can only hope that much of it is to
do with the King's Cross works, and that things will get better soon. Off
the top of my head, things that need doing:

- I'd like lights or a mini-roundabout at the Copenhagen Street / York Way
junction, but that's mostly selfishness.

- The junction of York Way and the little side road before Goods Way (just
a depot access road, i think) needs (a) remodelling, so that the
right-hand southbound lane is an ahead-or-right filter instead of a right
filter, as there's bugger all traffic turning right there, which means
either everyone piles into the left-hand lane, or everyone breaks the
rules and goes ahead from the right-hand lane, both of which are exciting
ways to lose if you're on a bike, (b) retiming, so there isn't so much
time spent waiting for the nonexistent side-road traffic to go through (c)
removal or rearrangement of the bus stop, which routinely blocks the
left-hand lane, perhaps to beyond the lights and (d) resurfacing, to get
rid of the ****ing great big rut across the road.

- The junction of York Way and Goods Way needs some resurfacing - there's
a big pothole on the Goods Way side, and chunks of cement on the road (or
is that gone now?).

- A pipe-dream, but access from the canal towpath to Goods Way / Pancras
Road / Midland Road would be nice, since these are key bike routes in the
area. The trouble is that the towpath is on the north side of the canal. A
good option would be a crossing at the St Pancras lock, giving access to
Camley Street between the nature park and the marina, from where you could
go along Camley Street under the railway, then take a new route along the
edge of that blob of green (Coronation Court?) to Pancras Road, from where
you could get to Midland Road. In a super-ideal world, the bridge would
cross both the canal and Camley Street, and lead to a bidirectional
segregated cycle lane on the south side of Camley Street, so you could get
from towpath to Pancras Road without ever having to face a car.
Alternatively, there are some bridges across the canal next to the depot,
which i think are disused; one of those could be requisitioned as a bike-
and foot-path across to Goods Way.

- If Midland Road isn't going to become a useful option, proper signing
and lighting (and, sadly, de-cobbling) of Haul Road / Battle Bridge Road,
so you can get from Goods Way to Pancras Road without having to go through
the junction at the railway viaduct. In fact, could the loop round the
gasometer become a gyratory? Would that be a good idea? The pair of bus
stops on Pancras Road south of the junction at the viaduct frequently case
the road to be blocked both ways; this would avoid that, although i don't
know where you'd put a bus stop on Battle Bridge Road.

- The south end of Pancras Road needs sorting, as everyone knows. Since
this is a major route for both vehicles and pedestrians, there needs to be
a grade-separated pedestrian crossing. Is this in the plan? In principle,
it would be straightforward to extend the subway that leads down to the
tube station at King's Cross under the road to St Pancras; not so nice for
the pedestrians, though. Is the future St Pancras still going to be up in
the air like it is now, or is that temporary? If it's staying up there, an
elevated walkway would be the obvious solution here.

- Sorting of Midland Road. I don't know what the master plan is here, but
bikes need to be able to get from the Euston Road to Goods Way along it.

- A bright spot: the bit of Euston Road right at the junction with Pancras
Road had its massive pothole filled in a few months ago.

- That junction still needs work, though - it's not uncommon for the
lights to change to let you out of Pancras Road when the Euston Road ahead
of you is solid with traffic, and if you do make it out, you're instantly
sat at the red light of a pedestrian crossing. Re-timing of the lights and
maybe making it a box junction should do it; there's going to be a
pedestrian subway here too, although i don't know how much that will help.

- The bus stop just before Judd Street should probably move to just after
Judd Street, so it doesn't bugger everything up at the junction.

- Consider unbanning the right turn at Judd Street x Tavistock Place; all
it does is force me to turn one road earlier, where i still fall foul of
traffic coming the other way. I think this is dependent on some roadwork
down there getting finished, though.

- If we can get all the above, free beer, pizza and flying pigs all round
should also be doable.

tom

--
You have to give up

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article ,
(Peter Frimberly) wrote:

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:09 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In a wide main road like Euston Road, a bendi-bus pulls in
regardless of cyclists riding where they should, close to the
kerb. They are then almost impossible to pass safely. I suggest
you try it sometime instead of pontificating.

Arguably anyone cycling along the Euston Road is asking for
trouble, given the bendy buses that use that road and the car and
white vans weaving about all over the place. There are plenty of
much quieter parallel roads to choose from for any cyclist that
values their life, even if a couple more junctions are involved
and it takes a few minuites extra!

Why on earth should we have to? The roads are as much ours as
anyone's.

Not between King's Cross station and Judd Street.

This is quite true. If there was a way to get from the Caledonian
Road into town that didn't involve some bit of Euston Road or
similar, and that wasn't a massive detour, i'd gladly take it.

Now, if Argyle St (I think that's the name) allowed two way cycling
and a cycle route across the Euston Road were signalled it would be
easier but it would be too complicated for Camden to provide
cycling facilities that work in two directions, apparently.

I think this is going to get a lot better when Midland Road is
reopened - there'll be a route round the back of King's Cross, via
Goods Way / Pancras Road, then Midland Road, then straight across to
Judd Street. This all hinges on Midland Road being two-way, or at
least having a contraflow cycle lane, of course, and i've no idea if
that will be the case.

Not much use unfortunately for people arriving at King's Cross on trains
from Cambridge. As Cambridge is the UK's premier cycling city there are
not a few of us.

I have to say, this whole area is mind-buggeringly awful for
cyclists. Pretty much all the way from Copenhagen Street to Tavistock
Place is badly laid out and in an absolute state. I can only hope
that much of it is to do with the King's Cross works, and that things
will get better soon. Off the top of my head, things that need doing:
[snip]

I agree it's a mess. Is there any way of talking to anyone in charge of
sorting things out to discuss the needs of bikes? My worry is that once
the pedestrian subways are completed it will become almost impossible to
cross Euston Road to get to and from King's Cross. Taking away the
crossing outside the station concourse didn't help.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article ,
(Tom Anderson) wrote:

On Sun, 2 Apr 2006, Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

In article ,
(Peter Frimberly) wrote:

On Wed, 29 Mar 2006 12:09 +0100 (BST), (Colin
Rosenstiel) wrote:

In a wide main road like Euston Road, a bendi-bus pulls in
regardless of cyclists riding where they should, close to the kerb.
They are then almost impossible to pass safely. I suggest you try it
sometime instead of pontificating.

Arguably anyone cycling along the Euston Road is asking for trouble,
given the bendy buses that use that road and the car and white vans
weaving about all over the place. There are plenty of much quieter
parallel roads to choose from for any cyclist that values their life,
even if a couple more junctions are involved and it takes a few
minuites extra!

Not between King's Cross station and Judd Street.

Now, if Argyle St (I think that's the name) allowed two way cycling
and a cycle route across the Euston Road were signalled it would be
easier but it would be too complicated for Camden to provide cycling
facilities that work in two directions, apparently.

I think this is going to get a lot better when Midland Road is reopened
- there'll be a route round the back of King's Cross, via Goods Way /
Pancras Road, then Midland Road, then straight across to Judd Street.
This all hinges on Midland Road being two-way, or at least having a
contraflow cycle lane, of course, and i've no idea if that will be the
case.

Not much use unfortunately for people arriving at King's Cross on trains
from Cambridge. As Cambridge is the UK's premier cycling city there are
not a few of us.

I have a cycling friend from Cambridge who occasionally comes down on the
train. We generally meet out the back, Cheney Road, i think it's called.
From there, you get out onto Pancras Road; we normally head south, and
then fight our way along Euston Road, but if Midland Road was available,
we could go north, under the railway on Pancras Road, and then south into
town along Midland Road. It adds a couple of hundred metres of distance,
but takes off a couple of hundred metres of riding on the Euston Road, so
it's a win in my book!

I have to say, this whole area is mind-buggeringly awful for cyclists.
Pretty much all the way from Copenhagen Street to Tavistock Place is
badly laid out and in an absolute state. I can only hope that much of
it is to do with the King's Cross works, and that things will get
better soon. Off the top of my head, things that need doing:
[snip]

I agree it's a mess. Is there any way of talking to anyone in charge of
sorting things out to discuss the needs of bikes? My worry is that once
the pedestrian subways are completed it will become almost impossible to
cross Euston Road to get to and from King's Cross. Taking away the
crossing outside the station concourse didn't help.

I haven't even a clue who's in charge of the KX project, let alone how one
might go about making representation to them - Network Rail run the
mainline station, TfL run the underground, GNER, Thameslink, WAGN and Hull
Trains have an interest, Union Rail are in charge of the CTRL-related
bits, the streets are Camden council's, except for the big ones which
might be TfL's, various individual buildings are owned by private property
developers, it's a big enough project that i imagine the GLA, LDA and DfT
all have fingers in the pie up to at least the second knuckle, the work's
being carried out by N contracting firms managed via M consultancies, and
i wouldn't be surprised if the Milk Marketing Board was involved somehow.
In fact, i think the very idea that there *is* anyone in charge might be
erroneous.

Perhaps LTUC would be the people to talk to. Actually, the LCC might be
even better.

tom

--
That must be one of the best things you can possibly do with a piglet,
booze and a cannon. -- D