Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

Hi all, hope someone can answer this definitively.

Yesterday morning, my girlfriend took the train from East Dulwich to London
Bridge. Because the train was pulling in to the station, she hopped on with
the intention of getting a ticket at the destination. However, while queuing
up at the 'Customers with fares to pay' kiosk, she was challenged by a
revenue protection functionary (or whatever they're called) demanding to
know why she didn't have a valid ticket etc.

After a prolonged debate, he did sell her a single, BUT also took down her
name and address saying she would be receiving a penalty fare demand in the
post.

Question: Surely you can't be sold a valid ticket (whether pre- or post-
journey) AND also be issued with a PF for that same journey? Was he just
trying it on to 'scare' her?

I'm aware that this took place within a compulsory ticket zone etc., but
both her and I have bought post-journey tickets (including Travelcards) at
LBridge dozens of times before without hassle, even on the relatively rare
occasions when both the ticket office and machine are functional at E
Dulwich. In any case, LBridge is a barrier controlled station for God's
sake! What were they expecting her to do? Vault the gates?

To add insult to (potential financial) injury, the ticket inspector was
apparently pretty damned rude and intransigent, and wouldn't listen to any
sort of reasoned argument. Bloody jobsworths...

Ta,
Dowager.

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

Dowager wrote:
Hi all, hope someone can answer this definitively.

Yesterday morning, my girlfriend took the train from East Dulwich to London
Bridge. Because the train was pulling in to the station, she hopped on with
the intention of getting a ticket at the destination. However, while queuing
up at the 'Customers with fares to pay' kiosk, she was challenged by a
revenue protection functionary (or whatever they're called) demanding to
know why she didn't have a valid ticket etc.

After a prolonged debate, he did sell her a single, BUT also took down her
name and address saying she would be receiving a penalty fare demand in the
post.

Question: Surely you can't be sold a valid ticket (whether pre- or post-
journey) AND also be issued with a PF for that same journey? Was he just
trying it on to 'scare' her?


I would think that you can, because you can only be issued with a
penalty fare if you aren't suspected of fare-evasion (if you were,
steps should be taken towards possible prosecution).

A penalty fare, officially, is not a punishment (or a penalty), but the
standard fare which you have to pay if you don't get a ticket in
advance of getting on the train (or crossing a red line or whatever).
Your girlfriend was in that position.

Of course, in practice this is nonsense and penalty fares are issued
incorrectly as fines, even though the fine for fare-evasion must be
£1000 or more.

Also, TOCs put up posters referring to penalty fares deterring
fare-evasion, even though according to the rules they shouldn't be
issued to suspected fare-evaders.

It's much easier to screw extra cash out of honest travellers trying to
buy tickets at the end of their journey than it is to get any cash out
of the determined fare-evaders which the railway authorities are less
keen to confront.


I'm aware that this took place within a compulsory ticket zone etc., but
both her and I have bought post-journey tickets (including Travelcards) at
LBridge dozens of times before without hassle, even on the relatively rare
occasions when both the ticket office and machine are functional at E
Dulwich. In any case, LBridge is a barrier controlled station for God's
sake! What were they expecting her to do? Vault the gates?

To add insult to (potential financial) injury, the ticket inspector was
apparently pretty damned rude and intransigent, and wouldn't listen to any
sort of reasoned argument. Bloody jobsworths...

Ta,
Dowager.

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

In message , Dowager
writes

Question: Surely you can't be sold a valid ticket (whether pre- or post-
journey) AND also be issued with a PF for that same journey?

Yes: http://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares/pf_faq.htm

If you board a train without a valid ticket for your entire
journey, or a valid Permit to Travel, you may be charged a
Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the full single fare (whichever is
the greater) to the next stop, plus the full single fare to
complete your journey.

--
Paul Terry

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

It's much easier to screw extra cash out of honest travellers trying
to buy
tickets at the end of their journey than it is to get any cash out of
the
determined fare-evaders which the railway authorities are less keen to
confront.

This is true of on-train inspections too, they patiently check those
showing tickets whilst ignoring the others who walk through the train or
jump off and run back behind him.

D

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

" BUT also took down her
name and address saying she would be receiving a penalty fare demand in
the post.

i think you've got your answer there
james

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

After a prolonged debate, he did sell her a single, BUT also took down her
name and address saying she would be receiving a penalty fare demand in the
post.

It's one or the other - the revenue official has acted incorrectly.
Retain the ticket just in case - the penalty fare cannot be enforced as
the ticket exempts it. If the PF notice arrives she will have to appeal
it and if you don't appeal it a court appearance is posible.

If she had been caught en route she could have been penalty fared en
route for the part of the journey already made and sold a ticket for
the remainder.

D

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

Dave Plumb wrote:
After a prolonged debate, he did sell her a single, BUT also took down her
name and address saying she would be receiving a penalty fare demand in the
post.

It's one or the other - the revenue official has acted incorrectly.
Retain the ticket just in case - the penalty fare cannot be enforced as
the ticket exempts it. If the PF notice arrives she will have to appeal
it and if you don't appeal it a court appearance is posible.

If she had been caught en route she could have been penalty fared en
route for the part of the journey already made and sold a ticket for
the remainder.

D

I was going through the gates at Vauxhall main line one lunch time last
week and as I did I was forced to stop by the sound of a revenue
inspector shouting at an Eastern European guy who was trieing to buy
and excess fare ticket. I stopped and listened for a few minutes at
the Inspector shouting abuse at this guy who was keeping his cool and
appearing to be unaware of what was going on.
He said he had come from Clapham Junc which was probabley untrue but
the abuse and the abusive demands for £20 were uncalled for.
After watching this for a few more minutes I tapped the passenger on
the shoulder and told him just to give the Inpector his name and
address and leave it at that so then of course the Inspector starts
hurling abuse at me and being very threatening.
Now I was under the impression that if I verbally abused a member of
staff and made threatening gestures that I would be arrested so it is
interesting to see that Revenue Protection Staff are allowed to get
away with assault.

Kevin

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

Paul Terry wrote:
In message , Dowager
writes

Question: Surely you can't be sold a valid ticket (whether pre- or
post- journey) AND also be issued with a PF for that same journey?

Yes: http://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares/pf_faq.htm

If you board a train without a valid ticket for your entire
journey, or a valid Permit to Travel, you may be charged a
Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the full single fare (whichever is
the greater) to the next stop, plus the full single fare to
complete your journey.

Surely that suggests that it would actually be a 'no'? If you've completed
your journey before they feel your collar, you can't be charged the single
fare and the PF (she was at the destination station after all, not on a
train)?

I think the quoted FAQ has a more 'statutory' origin in Section 8.4 of the
SRA's Penalty Fare Rules document at
http://www.ircas.co.uk/documents/doc...les%202002.pdf,
and this seem to be even more clear-cut on the issue:

"A receipt given under rule 8.4 or a notice given under rule 8.3 must allow
the person to whom it is given to continue the train journey to which it
relates to the next scheduled stop or to any other stop shown on that
receipt or notice. If the person wants to travel beyond this stop, they must
pay the relevant fare from this stop to their destination station as well as
the penalty fare. If the receipt or notice is given in connection with a
compulsory ticket area, it must allow the person to leave the compulsory
ticket area."

Also interesting that no 'appeal notice' or receipt were actually handed out
in this instance: These are required by the Rules if a PF is issued.

The whole thing stinks IMHO, and I don't believe Southern have got a leg to
stand on if they choose to pursue this.

Anyway, thanks for the v. helpful responses - Next stop uk.legal! ;-)

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

n message , Dowager
writes

Question: Surely you can't be sold a valid ticket (whether pre- or post-
journey) AND also be issued with a PF for that same journey?

Yes: http://www.ircas.co.uk/penaltyfares/pf_faq.htm

If you board a train without a valid ticket for your entire
journey, or a valid Permit to Travel, you may be charged a
Penalty Fare of £20 or twice the full single fare (whichever
is
the greater) to the next stop, plus the full single fare to
complete your journey.

--
Paul Terry

As a lawyer I would point out the use of the word 'may', so discretion
is allowed. Also, the regulation appears to imply that it only applies
to travelling revenue officers (or whatever they are called) as the
penalty is either £20 or twice the single fare etc....it is arguable
that it does not apply once the journey is finished.

Cliff

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

On 6 Apr 2006 03:39:05 -0700, "Kev" wrote:


Dave Plumb wrote:
After a prolonged debate, he did sell her a single, BUT also took down her
name and address saying she would be receiving a penalty fare demand in the
post.

It's one or the other - the revenue official has acted incorrectly.
Retain the ticket just in case - the penalty fare cannot be enforced as
the ticket exempts it. If the PF notice arrives she will have to appeal
it and if you don't appeal it a court appearance is posible.

If she had been caught en route she could have been penalty fared en
route for the part of the journey already made and sold a ticket for
the remainder.

D

I was going through the gates at Vauxhall main line one lunch time last
week and as I did I was forced to stop by the sound of a revenue
inspector shouting at an Eastern European guy who was trieing to buy
and excess fare ticket. I stopped and listened for a few minutes at
the Inspector shouting abuse at this guy who was keeping his cool and
appearing to be unaware of what was going on.
He said he had come from Clapham Junc which was probabley untrue but
the abuse and the abusive demands for £20 were uncalled for.
After watching this for a few more minutes I tapped the passenger on
the shoulder and told him just to give the Inpector his name and
address and leave it at that so then of course the Inspector starts
hurling abuse at me and being very threatening.
Now I was under the impression that if I verbally abused a member of
staff and made threatening gestures that I would be arrested so it is
interesting to see that Revenue Protection Staff are allowed to get
away with assault.

Kevin

I think this is what mobile phones with the ability to record video
are for?

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

In message , Dowager
writes

To add insult to (potential financial) injury, the ticket inspector was
apparently pretty damned rude and intransigent, and wouldn't listen to any
sort of reasoned argument. Bloody jobsworths...


I would have been 100% behind you until they had a random mob handed
inspection at my local station the other week. It's Palmers Green and I
arrived there about two Mondays ago to find all the regulars I travel
with moping about outside the station and looking less than pleased. The
reason? Mob handed ticket inspectors.

I went through and got my normal train, but it did make me realise how
many people routinely avoid paying the fares. So sorry old mate, tell
the significant other to buy a ticket before hand.

--
Edward Cowling London UK

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

Barry Salter wrote:
On Sat, 8 Apr 2006 18:08:29 +0100, Edward Cowling London UK
wrote:

In message , Dowager
writes

To add insult to (potential financial) injury, the ticket inspector was
apparently pretty damned rude and intransigent, and wouldn't listen to any
sort of reasoned argument. Bloody jobsworths...


I would have been 100% behind you until they had a random mob handed
inspection at my local station the other week. It's Palmers Green and I
arrived there about two Mondays ago to find all the regulars I travel
with moping about outside the station and looking less than pleased. The
reason? Mob handed ticket inspectors.

I can do a couple of examples of "mob handed" ticket inspectors for you:

First up, we have the inspector who checked a ticket on board a train,
which was fine, but he caught a glimpse of the corner of a Permit to
Travel in the wallet too, so he asked to see it. Said PTT had been
obtained from a station on a totally different TOC, and the punter had a
valid ticket for the train he was on, yet the RPI still PFed the punter
in question.


This needs a bit of explaining. Do you mean that the passenger started
the journey the same day on a different TOC and only bought a ticket
for the last bit?

If there was time to buy a ticket for the last bit, it's a very
different situation from if, say, the latter was a season and the
passenger had intended to get a ticket for the first bit of the journey
at the first station, without time to queue at the interchange.

In previous threads, it's been suggested that you can pay up for the
PTT at the end of the full journey, even if you have changed TOC
halfway.

Because my beef with the fragmented system is knowing what to do if you
turn up with half an hour to spare at, say, Dunton Green, intending to
buy a ticket for a journey to Winchester, knowing that there won't be
time to queue at Waterloo, but the office at Dunton Green is closed.
Other posters have suggested that a PTT from Dunton Green would work
all the way to Winchester.



Then we have the one who withdrew a Gold Card a couple of weeks after it
had been issued as the passenger didn't produce a photocard to support
it and was generally abusive. When the inspector investigated further,
it transpired that it wasn't the (male) passenger's Gold Card at all,
but a female passenger's.

Cheers,

Barry

--
Barry Salter, barry at southie dot me dot uk
Read uk.* newsgroups? Read uk.net.news.announce!

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

"MIG" wrote in message
oups.com...

Barry Salter wrote:
....
I can do a couple of examples of "mob handed" ticket inspectors for you:

First up, we have the inspector who checked a ticket on board a train,
which was fine, but he caught a glimpse of the corner of a Permit to
Travel in the wallet too, so he asked to see it. Said PTT had been
obtained from a station on a totally different TOC, and the punter had a
valid ticket for the train he was on, yet the RPI still PFed the punter
in question.

This needs a bit of explaining. Do you mean that the passenger started
the journey the same day on a different TOC and only bought a ticket
for the last bit?

If there was time to buy a ticket for the last bit, it's a very
different situation from if, say, the latter was a season and the
passenger had intended to get a ticket for the first bit of the journey
at the first station, without time to queue at the interchange.

In previous threads, it's been suggested that you can pay up for the
PTT at the end of the full journey, even if you have changed TOC
halfway.

Because my beef with the fragmented system is knowing what to do if you
turn up with half an hour to spare at, say, Dunton Green, intending to
buy a ticket for a journey to Winchester, knowing that there won't be
time to queue at Waterloo, but the office at Dunton Green is closed.
Other posters have suggested that a PTT from Dunton Green would work
all the way to Winchester.

"This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity."
according to
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...alty_fares.htm

On some TOCs at least, a PTT is valid for only 2 hours.
--
David Biddulph

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

David Biddulph wrote:
"MIG" wrote in message
oups.com...

Barry Salter wrote:
...
I can do a couple of examples of "mob handed" ticket inspectors for you:

First up, we have the inspector who checked a ticket on board a train,
which was fine, but he caught a glimpse of the corner of a Permit to
Travel in the wallet too, so he asked to see it. Said PTT had been
obtained from a station on a totally different TOC, and the punter had a
valid ticket for the train he was on, yet the RPI still PFed the punter
in question.

This needs a bit of explaining. Do you mean that the passenger started
the journey the same day on a different TOC and only bought a ticket
for the last bit?

If there was time to buy a ticket for the last bit, it's a very
different situation from if, say, the latter was a season and the
passenger had intended to get a ticket for the first bit of the journey
at the first station, without time to queue at the interchange.

In previous threads, it's been suggested that you can pay up for the
PTT at the end of the full journey, even if you have changed TOC
halfway.

Because my beef with the fragmented system is knowing what to do if you
turn up with half an hour to spare at, say, Dunton Green, intending to
buy a ticket for a journey to Winchester, knowing that there won't be
time to queue at Waterloo, but the office at Dunton Green is closed.
Other posters have suggested that a PTT from Dunton Green would work
all the way to Winchester.

"This permit must be upgraded to a valid ticket at the first opportunity."
according to
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...alty_fares.htm

On some TOCs at least, a PTT is valid for only 2 hours.



In other words, despite turning up in plenty of time to get a ticket at
the start of the journey, you are forced to either miss the connection
at Waterloo or be penalty-fared. And of course, it's nothing to do
with SWT that an SET station wasn't staffed.

I face similar situations repeatedly, when travelling from south east
London to Brighton etc, having turned up at a local station in plenty
of time, and instead of a cross-platform interchange at London Bridge,
I have a long walk down to a long queue at the pathetically-staffed
ticket office there.

Until the relevant authorities put at least as much effort into making
tickets available as they do into catching people without a ticket, I
will never be on the side of RPOs. As far as I am concerned, they
should be staffing ticket offices, not blocking entrances and exits at
otherwise unstaffed stations.

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

TedJrr wrote:

I've complained to SWT about this, they simply agreed that the
situation is inadequate and sent me £20 worth of travel vouchers!!

To pay your next penalty fare with?

Colin McKenzie

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

What would happen if a non UK citiozen is wrongly accused and didnt
have the PF on them?

Penalty Fare - Surely they can't do this?
 

wrote:
What would happen if a non UK citiozen is wrongly accused and didnt
have the PF on them?


Travelling without the means to pay the normal fare is evidence of
intended fare evasion, in which case you can't be penalty fared.
Having the means to pay the normal fare but not the penalty fare is
evidence that you might not be intending to evade the fare, and
therefore you can be penalty-fared (ie charged a "standard" fare for
not having paid in advance).

It's then a matter of a civil debt, so I really don't know how that's
dealt with internationally.