New camera scam
 

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.
This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase. I
don't see how the police can do this without lengthening the amber phase to
compensate, but even that doesn't really help. I think the only fair
solution is to remove the final stop line - since cyclists have no license
plates, the final stop line no longer serves any purpose except to allow the
prosecution of drivers who went through the meaningful initial stop line
during the amber phase, which will of course increase scamera revenue, at
the expense of large amounts of tax revenue when professional drivers lose
their licences in droves (drove being the past tense of drive.... hehehe).

Incidentally, I waited immediately behind the cycle box yesterday for the
green light for turning right from Silvertown Way to George Street, and
after about five minutes the driver behind tapped on my window and informed
me that the sensor only activated if I pulled my car forward onto the green
box!

New camera scam
 

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:51:48 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:


The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

Of course they are. The stop line for cars is before the cycle box.
The cycle box is for cycles.

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

New camera scam
 

On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:31:58 +0100, James Farrar wrote:

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:51:48 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:


The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

Of course they are. The stop line for cars is before the cycle box.
The cycle box is for cycles.

And cycles are for ****wits, and thus we close the circle, grasshopper.

New camera scam
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle
box. This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber
phase. I don't see how the police can do this without lengthening the
amber phase to compensate, but even that doesn't really help. I think the
only fair solution is to remove the final stop line - since cyclists have
no license plates, the final stop line no longer serves any purpose except
to allow the prosecution of drivers who went through the meaningful
initial stop line during the amber phase, which will of course increase
scamera revenue, at the expense of large amounts of tax revenue when
professional drivers lose their licences in droves (drove being the past
tense of drive.... hehehe).


The amber phase is 3 seconds long. The distance between the motor vehicle
and bicycle stop lines is usually about 10 feet. If you are approaching the
lights at 30 mph that is 44 feet/sec. So we are talking about stopping a
quarter of a second earlier. If you have difficulty stopping at the correct
line you shouldn't be driving.

Ian

New camera scam
 

Ian wrote in
:

If you have
difficulty stopping at the correct line you shouldn't be driving.

In my experience, in wet weather (when the road is shiny) or at night, it's
very hard to see that there's a cycle box from a distance so you plan your
braking based on the assumption that the stop line is level with the traffic
light pole. Then as you get closer, you suddenly discover that you need to
stop further back that you'd anticipated.

The solution to this is to move the traffic light poles back so they are
level with the car stop line.

New camera scam
 

In ,
Martin Underwood said:
Ian wrote in
:

If you have
difficulty stopping at the correct line you shouldn't be driving.

In my experience, in wet weather (when the road is shiny) or at
night, it's very hard to see that there's a cycle box from a distance
so you plan your braking based on the assumption that the stop line
is level with the traffic light pole. Then as you get closer, you
suddenly discover that you need to stop further back that you'd
anticipated.
The solution to this is to move the traffic light poles back so they
are level with the car stop line.

Which would permit cyclists to go through a red light legitimately and then
what the self-righteous car drivers have to huff and puff about?

New camera scam
 

Brimstone wrote:
In ,
Martin Underwood said:
Ian wrote in
:

If you have
difficulty stopping at the correct line you shouldn't be driving.

In my experience, in wet weather (when the road is shiny) or at
night, it's very hard to see that there's a cycle box from a distance
so you plan your braking based on the assumption that the stop line
is level with the traffic light pole. Then as you get closer, you
suddenly discover that you need to stop further back that you'd
anticipated.
The solution to this is to move the traffic light poles back so they
are level with the car stop line.

Which would permit cyclists to go through a red light legitimately
and then what the self-righteous car drivers have to huff and puff
about?

My thoughts exaclty - and I've driven plenty of miles in London and have
never (in all conditions) had to pass the stop line when on red.

New camera scam
 

[ngs trimmed]

Steve Firth wrote:
On Fri, 28 Apr 2006 00:31:58 +0100, James Farrar wrote:

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:51:48 +0100, "John Rowland"
wrote:


The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

Of course they are. The stop line for cars is before the cycle box.
The cycle box is for cycles.

And cycles are for ****wits, and thus we close the circle, grasshopper.

*boggle*

checks newsgroups line

realization dawns

John, I thought better of you... you *know* xposting to uk.transport is
borderline trolling!

--
Larry Lard
Replies to group please

New camera scam
 

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message Ian wrote in


If you have
difficulty stopping at the correct line you shouldn't be driving.

In my experience, in wet weather (when the road is shiny) or at night,
it's very hard to see that there's a cycle box from a distance so you plan
your braking based on the assumption that the stop line is level with the
traffic light pole. Then as you get closer, you suddenly discover that you
need to stop further back that you'd anticipated.

The solution to this is to move the traffic light poles back so they are
level with the car stop line.


How about the cycle lane on the nearside of the road on the approach to the
traffic lights? If you can't see that you need your eyes tested. If you can
see it then you should anticipate that there is likely to be a cycle box at
the traffic lights.

Ian

New camera scam
 

In message of Thu, 27 Apr 2006
23:51:48 in uk.transport.london, John Rowland
writes

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

Where? The nearest relevant URL I found is
http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/community/stoplines.html
That describes the rules but says nothing about new enforcement
policies. 'phone information confirms a new practice is being developed.
Leaflets - not yet ready - will publicise the campaign.
I await a call back from the relevant COLP person. When I find out more,
I will say.

This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase. I
don't see how the police can do this without lengthening the amber phase to
compensate, but even that doesn't really help. I think the only fair

Why? We have the same time to stop. The distances are just pushed back
by a few metres. I imagine that the relevant line is the advance stop
line rather than the cycle stop line.

solution is to remove the final stop line - since cyclists have no license
plates, the final stop line no longer serves any purpose except to allow the

Cyclists may also be prosecuted for stop line offences. Obviously, the
lack of a license plate makes this much less likely than for motorists.

prosecution of drivers who went through the meaningful initial stop line
during the amber phase, which will of course increase scamera revenue, at
the expense of large amounts of tax revenue when professional drivers lose
their licences in droves (drove being the past tense of drive.... hehehe).

I look forward to a few such prosecutions being made to persuade motor
cyclists and black cab drivers not to stop in cycle boxes. I like to
think the main problem is ignorance of the rules. I increased my
knowledge by reading in http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/16.htm
154: Advanced stop lines. Some junctions have advanced stop lines or
bus advance areas to allow cycles and buses to be positioned ahead of
other traffic. Motorists, including motorcyclists, MUST stop at the
first white line reached, and should avoid encroaching on the marked
area. If your vehicle has proceeded over the first white line at the
time the signal goes red, you MUST stop at the second white line, even
if your vehicle is in the marked area.
Laws RTA 1988 sect 36 & TSRGD regs 10 & 43(2)


Incidentally, I waited immediately behind the cycle box yesterday for the
green light for turning right from Silvertown Way to George Street, and
after about five minutes the driver behind tapped on my window and informed
me that the sensor only activated if I pulled my car forward onto the green
box!

In E16? I suggest you report it to the relevant local authority.
Metropolitan Plod should be able to advise. I believe a failed
installation is legally ineffective. I used to work on Area Traffic
Control where maximum cycle times were 120 seconds. I now wait until I
have noticed the delay and a further two minutes before proceeding with
caution.

It is EXTREMELY hard to comply with all traffic regulations and the
policy of automatic penalties is very hard. As an amateur motor vehicle
driver, I get two or three tickets each year. I am currently resisting
one. It was depressing that the helpline of the issuing London Borough
and several others could not point to the relevant legislation.
--
Walter Briscoe

New camera scam
 

John Rowland wrote:
The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.
This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase. ).

Why?

New camera scam
 

In article , John Rowland
says...

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

Good. Its a big ****ing green box with a picture of a bicycle in it.
It's meaning is hardly ambiguous.

This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase.

What utter rubbish. I can manage it in a vehicle 40 times the weight.

OPEN YOUR EYES. ENGAGE YOUR BRAIN.

--
Conor,

Same ****, different day.

New camera scam
 

"Conor" wrote in message
t...
In article , John Rowland
says...

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not
only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is
reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle
box.

Good. Its a big ****ing green box with a picture of a bicycle in it.
It's meaning is hardly ambiguous.

This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase.

What utter rubbish. I can manage it in a vehicle 40 times the weight.

OPEN YOUR EYES. ENGAGE YOUR BRAIN.

--
Conor,

Same ****, different day.
----------------------------------------------------------Cyclists in London
are uninsured arrogant aggressive scumbags,I try to knock at least one off
of their bikes every day the easiest way to take one out is to get in front
of some cocky ******* whose doing about twenty five MPH & apply your
handbrake that way your rear lights don,t come on,& with a bit of luck they
smack into your rear possibly breaking their necks "who gives a ****"if
every one does this we can cull every cyclist within 9 months.

New camera scam
 

John Rowland wrote:
The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.
This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase. I
don't see how the police can do this without lengthening the amber phase to
compensate, but even that doesn't really help. I think the only fair
solution is to remove the final stop line - since cyclists have no license
plates, the final stop line no longer serves any purpose except to allow the
prosecution of drivers who went through the meaningful initial stop line
during the amber phase, which will of course increase scamera revenue, at
the expense of large amounts of tax revenue when professional drivers lose
their licences in droves (drove being the past tense of drive.... hehehe).

I assume this is a wind-up....
Unless you can't see either the stop line or the light, (in which case
should you be driving?), I don't see how your ability to stop behind the
line is altered.
Incidentally, I waited immediately behind the cycle box yesterday for the
green light for turning right from Silvertown Way to George Street, and
after about five minutes the driver behind tapped on my window and informed
me that the sensor only activated if I pulled my car forward onto the green
box!


I assume the 'main' light is a normal green rather than a straight ahead
arrow. In which case you can legally cross the 'stop' line and wait in
the junction. I know of junction where the loop detector is far in
advance of the stop line, so that when vehicles remain behind the stop
line they only get min RT and 3 or 4 get through instead of 12+

I also know of a major junction where there is a RT used by significant
numbers but there are only 'green arrows' for left and straight ahead
with no full green. My reading of HC suggests that you may never turn
right at that junction!

Jim Chisholm

New camera scam
 

Walter Briscoe wrote:

It is EXTREMELY hard to comply with all traffic regulations and the
policy of automatic penalties is very hard. As an amateur motor vehicle
driver, I get two or three tickets each year. I am currently resisting
one. It was depressing that the helpline of the issuing London Borough
and several others could not point to the relevant legislation.

You are obviously a very amateur driver. I've been driving for 40 years
and at one time drove 30k+ miles pa.
To date I've had no tickets, fines, endorsements or penalty points.

Jim Chisholm

New camera scam
 

"J. Chisholm" wrote in message
...

I've been driving for 40 years and at one time drove 30k+ miles pa.
To date I've had no tickets, fines, endorsements or penalty points.

But your blue fibreglass three-wheeler doesn't impress the chicks!

New camera scam
 

John Rowland wrote:
"J. Chisholm" wrote in message
...

I've been driving for 40 years and at one time drove 30k+ miles pa.
To date I've had no tickets, fines, endorsements or penalty points.


But your blue fibreglass three-wheeler doesn't impress the chicks!


No but my TR3A bought for £200 used to, and I was never even stopped in
that (;-)

Jim

New camera scam
 

On 28/4/06 09:40, in article
, "Martin Underwood"
wrote:


The solution to this is to move the traffic light poles back so they are
level with the car stop line.

In almost every other country I've been to, you stop in a line with the
traffic lights -- ie don't pass a red signal. But here, oh no, we scatter
traffic lights confusingly all over a junction, often way past the stop line
on the other side of the road, and then paint a white line and tell people
don't cross that line if the lights are red.

It was always a bad system; better enforcement of it makes it more obviously
so.

--

U n d e r a c h i e v e r


_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 140,000 groups
Unlimited download
http://www.usenetzone.com to open account

New camera scam
 

"John Rowland" wrote:

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle
box.

A much more helpful use of cameras would be to catch those drivers who
obstruct pedestrian crossings at traffic light controlled junctions, making
pedestrians walk around them whilst they wait for the next green phase.


Chris

New camera scam
 

John Rowland wrote:
The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

About time too. I can only recall two occasions on my daily cycle
commute when there haven't been cars in the cycle box. The rule about
not enroaching the cycle box has been in the highway code for some
years now but is being blatently ignored. It looks like the only way
to get people to follow the rules is to enforce them. Even the cars
which stop behind their line manage to drift forward to the cycle line
on most occasions

This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase.
How? Why are you driving if you can stop at the white line before the
lights. Maybe something they can do to help you would be to have a set
of repeater lights

I
don't see how the police can do this without lengthening the amber phase to
compensate, but even that doesn't really help. I think the only fair
solution is to remove the final stop line - since cyclists have no license
plates, the final stop line no longer serves any purpose

It does - it tells me where to stop my bike. It's purpose is to make
it safe for me to cycle by not letting me cycle through a junction
while there is conflicting traffic

snip

Incidentally, I waited immediately behind the cycle box yesterday for the
green light for turning right from Silvertown Way to George Street, and
after about five minutes the driver behind tapped on my window and informed
me that the sensor only activated if I pulled my car forward onto the green
box!

So I presume you reported the fault?

New camera scam
 

Chris Read wrote:

A much more helpful use of cameras would be to catch those drivers who
obstruct pedestrian crossings at traffic light controlled junctions, making
pedestrians walk around them whilst they wait for the next green phase.

The first step would have to be to make it illegal to stop there ie
implie there is a yellow box at all ped crossings

New camera scam
 

Chris Read wrote:

A much more helpful use of cameras would be to catch those drivers who
obstruct pedestrian crossings at traffic light controlled junctions, making
pedestrians walk around them whilst they wait for the next green phase.

The first step would have to be to make it illegal to stop there ie
imply there is a yellow box at all ped crossings

New camera scam
 

"Chris!" wrote:


Chris Read wrote:

A much more helpful use of cameras would be to catch those drivers who
obstruct pedestrian crossings at traffic light controlled junctions,
making
pedestrians walk around them whilst they wait for the next green phase.

The first step would have to be to make it illegal to stop there ie
implie there is a yellow box at all ped crossings


See http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/18.htm

168: "In queuing traffic, you should keep the crossing clear."

Chris

New camera scam
 

In ,
Nick Finnigan said:
Chris! wrote:
John Rowland wrote:

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute
not only drivers who go through the final stop line when the
traffic light is reds, but also drivers who go through the initial
stop line before the cycle box.


About time too. I can only recall two occasions on my daily cycle
commute when there haven't been cars in the cycle box.

On a busy road, that is legal and expected.

Why?

New camera scam
 

Chris! wrote:
John Rowland wrote:

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.


About time too. I can only recall two occasions on my daily cycle
commute when there haven't been cars in the cycle box.

On a busy road, that is legal and expected.

New camera scam
 

In article , J. Chisholm
writes
I also know of a major junction where there is a RT used by significant
numbers but there are only 'green arrows' for left and straight ahead
with no full green. My reading of HC suggests that you may never turn
right at that junction!

Never mind the Highway Code: it is an offence to turn right at traffic
lights except on a green arrow pointing right or a solid green light.

[Ditto for left and straight ahead.]

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

New camera scam
 

In article , John Rowland
writes
The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

Good.

This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber phase.

If it makes it noticeably harder for you, then you need to go and get
some more driving lessons.

--
Clive D.W. Feather | Home:
Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org
Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work:
Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is:

New camera scam
 

"Chris!" wrote in message

John Rowland wrote:
The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not
only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is
reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle
box.

About time too. I can only recall two occasions on my daily cycle
commute when there haven't been cars in the cycle box. The rule about
not enroaching the cycle box has been in the highway code for some
years now but is being blatently ignored.

The rule about cyclists obeying traffic lights has been in the Highway Code
even longer, but it is more often than not ignored. I just watched a
recording of a debate this week in the House of Lords on the subject of
cyclists ignoring traffic law. It sounds like something is going to be done
this soon. About time too.

Apparently one member of the House of Lords nearly died a few years ago
after being hit by a dangerously ridden cycle outside the House. Helps
concentrate their minds.

Ian

New camera scam
 

In message of Fri, 28 Apr 2006
11:28:35 in uk.transport.london, Walter Briscoe
writes
In message of Thu, 27 Apr 2006
23:51:48 in uk.transport.london, John Rowland
writes

The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle box.

Where? The nearest relevant URL I found is
http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/community/stoplines.html
That describes the rules but says nothing about new enforcement
policies. 'phone information confirms a new practice is being developed.
Leaflets - not yet ready - will publicise the campaign.
I await a call back from the relevant COLP person. When I find out
more, I will say.

I just spoke to the relevant P.C. who is on early turn.
There is a new leaflet explaining the rules. It seems it is similar to
http://www.cityoflondon.police.uk/community/stoplines.html. It has
been distributed via the Public Carriage office and other places.

The rules will be enforced by constables in uniform on site.
The rules will NOT be enforced by camera - I regret that. ;)

It seems there are 3 classes of vehicle which regularly ignore the
advanced stop line: taxis; motorcycles and buses.

The work is part of a campaign to reduce deaths and serious injuries to
cyclists in the city. There were 14 such casualties in 2005; 8 in 2003.
The Department of Transport target is less than 6.

COLP is also trying to educate cyclists. There is an educational
presentation at St. Paul's (outside M&S) between 11.00 and 15.00 on May
22-26. Ticketed cyclists will get a voucher to attend and the tickets
will be cancelled on attending a presentation.

I suggest the OP overstated the situation.
--
Walter Briscoe

New camera scam
 

On Thu, 27 Apr 2006 23:51:48 +0100, John Rowland wrote:


The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute not only
drivers who go through the final stop line when the traffic light is reds,
but also drivers who go through the initial stop line before the cycle
box. This makes it noticeably harder to stop legally during the amber
phase.

If driving is too hard for you then don't.

New camera scam
 

"J. Chisholm" wrote in news:e2t8v3$nd6$1
@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk:


You are obviously a very amateur driver. I've been driving for 40 years
and at one time drove 30k+ miles pa.
To date I've had no tickets, fines, endorsements or penalty points.

Jim Chisholm


If it takes you a year to do 30k miles, you are obviously a slow driver,
hence the lack of tickets, fines, endorsements or penalty points.


--
Stuart

"end user" v. A command regrettably not implemented in most systems.

New camera scam
 

Brimstone wrote:
In ,
Nick Finnigan said:

Chris! wrote:

John Rowland wrote:


The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute
not only drivers who go through the final stop line when the
traffic light is reds, but also drivers who go through the initial
stop line before the cycle box.


About time too. I can only recall two occasions on my daily cycle
commute when there haven't been cars in the cycle box.

On a busy road, that is legal and expected.


Why?

Walter has posted HC rule 154 which shows it is legal.
If vehicles are close together, one will generally have proceeded over
the first white line at the time the signal turns red.

New camera scam
 

Ian wrote:

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message Ian wrote in


If you have
difficulty stopping at the correct line you shouldn't be driving.

In my experience, in wet weather (when the road is shiny) or at night,
it's very hard to see that there's a cycle box from a distance so you plan
your braking based on the assumption that the stop line is level with the
traffic light pole. Then as you get closer, you suddenly discover that you
need to stop further back that you'd anticipated.

The solution to this is to move the traffic light poles back so they are
level with the car stop line.


How about the cycle lane on the nearside of the road on the approach to the
traffic lights? If you can't see that you need your eyes tested. If you can
see it then you should anticipate that there is likely to be a cycle box at
the traffic lights.

Is that really the case? It seems most illogical to me! The benefits of
having a cycle box are far greater where there's no cycle lane.

--
Aidan Stanger
http://www.bettercrossrail.co.uk

New camera scam
 

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
Brimstone wrote:
In ,
Nick Finnigan said:

Chris! wrote:

John Rowland wrote:


The City Of London Police have announced that they will prosecute
not only drivers who go through the final stop line when the
traffic light is reds, but also drivers who go through the initial
stop line before the cycle box.


About time too. I can only recall two occasions on my daily cycle
commute when there haven't been cars in the cycle box.

On a busy road, that is legal and expected.


Why?

Walter has posted HC rule 154 which shows it is legal.
If vehicles are close together, one will generally have proceeded over the
first white line at the time the signal turns red.

Only if the driver ignores the meaning of an amber traffic light.

Ian

New camera scam
 

In message of Sat, 29 Apr
2006 19:58:47 in uk.transport.london, Aidan Stanger
writes
Ian wrote:

"Martin Underwood" wrote in message Ian wrote in


If you have
difficulty stopping at the correct line you shouldn't be driving.

In my experience, in wet weather (when the road is shiny) or at night,
it's very hard to see that there's a cycle box from a distance so you plan
your braking based on the assumption that the stop line is level with the
traffic light pole. Then as you get closer, you suddenly discover that you
need to stop further back that you'd anticipated.

The solution to this is to move the traffic light poles back so they are
level with the car stop line.


How about the cycle lane on the nearside of the road on the approach to the
traffic lights? If you can't see that you need your eyes tested. If you can
see it then you should anticipate that there is likely to be a cycle box at
the traffic lights.

Is that really the case? It seems most illogical to me! The benefits of
having a cycle box are far greater where there's no cycle lane.


Such a situation should never exist. A cyclist can only bypass the first
stop line via the cycle lane - that one is new to me.

I am going to quote http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/20023113.htm#10
Meaning of stop line and references to light signals
43. - (1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), "stop line" in
relation to light signals for the control of vehicular traffic means -
[snip]
(2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed
in conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those
light signals means -

(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal
cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that
line; or
(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded
beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle
lane.

Diagram 1001.2 is in http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2002/023113am.gif
--
Walter Briscoe

New camera scam
 

Ian wrote:
"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message


Walter has posted HC rule 154 which shows it is legal.
If vehicles are close together, one will generally have proceeded over the
first white line at the time the signal turns red.


Only if the driver ignores the meaning of an amber traffic light.

Nope. If the vehicles are close enough, one of them will have to wait
between the different Stop Lines, in order to obey the HC and the law.
And vehicles approaching traffic lights in London are often close enough
to stop a Taxi pulling into the gap.

New camera scam
 

Of course they are. The stop line for cars is before the cycle box.
The cycle box is for cycles.

And cycles are for ****wits, and thus we close the circle, grasshopper.


And coronary heart disease will kill you but not ****wit cyclists.

New camera scam
 

In message , Walter Briscoe
writes

Such a situation should never exist. A cyclist can only bypass the
first stop line via the cycle lane - that one is new to me.

The requirement for an advance stop box to be fed by a cycle lane is
relatively new. There are older examples where this doesn't happen, e.g:

http://www.ctc.org.uk/_CTC/images/Ca.../GYork0397.jpg

http://www.ctc.org.uk/_CTC/images/Ca...licy/F1036.jpg
--
Paul Terry

New camera scam
 

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message
Ian wrote:
"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message


Walter has posted HC rule 154 which shows it is legal.
If vehicles are close together, one will generally have proceeded over
the first white line at the time the signal turns red.


Only if the driver ignores the meaning of an amber traffic light.

Nope. If the vehicles are close enough, one of them will have to wait
between the different Stop Lines, in order to obey the HC and the law. And
vehicles approaching traffic lights in London are often close enough to
stop a Taxi pulling into the gap.

So you are talking about the case where a car is in a queue moving slowly
forward. The traffic lights change from green after he has passed the first
stop line and before he has passed the second line. TSRGD2002 Section 5
paragraph 43 says,

'2) Where the road marking shown in diagram 1001.2 has been placed in
conjunction with light signals, "stop line" in relation to those light
signals means -


(a) the first stop line, in the case of a vehicle (other than a pedal
cycle proceeding in the cycle lane) which has not proceeded beyond that
line; or

(b) the second stop line, in the case of a vehicle which has proceeded
beyond the first stop line or of a pedal cycle proceeding in the cycle
lane.'
The road marking in the diagram is a stop line incidentally.
However, red light cameras are not normally activated until a few seconds
after the lights have turned red and they take two photos a short time apart
to show that the vehicle was moving after the red light came on. If a car
stopped at a red light inside the cycle box he hasn't committed an offence
unless he entered the box whilst the red light was on. In which case he
would have passed the first stop line a few seconds after the traffic lights
went red.
Ian

New camera scam
 

Ian wrote:
"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message

Ian wrote:

"Nick Finnigan" wrote in message


Walter has posted HC rule 154 which shows it is legal.
If vehicles are close together, one will generally have proceeded over
the first white line at the time the signal turns red.


Only if the driver ignores the meaning of an amber traffic light.

Nope. If the vehicles are close enough, one of them will have to wait
between the different Stop Lines, in order to obey the HC and the law. And
vehicles approaching traffic lights in London are often close enough to
stop a Taxi pulling into the gap.


So you are talking about the case where a car is in a queue moving slowly
forward. The traffic lights change from green after he has passed the first
stop line and before he has passed the second line.

And other cases.