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On Sat, 20 May 2006 07:27:16 GMT, Phil Richards
wrote:

On Wed, 17 May 2006 23:30:37 +0100, Arthur Figgis
] wrote:

IMHO Paris Nord needs some sort of really, really, obvious ticket
machines with huge signs in a range of languages which people can't
miss as they get off arriving trains. These would take coins, notes
and non-French credit cards, and issue "travelcards"

I had no problems in buying a Carnet of 10 metro tickets from an RATP
ticket machine using my Nationwide Visa credit card a few months ago.

Interesting. I've failed with Nationwide (they must have mopped up the
trainspotter market by now?) and Halifax, and Barclays come to think
of it, and I've heard of others coming unstuck. Maybe it is just us...
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

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On Fri, 19 May 2006 Dave Arquati wrote:

Of course, your average Ukrainian earns a lot less than your average
Londoner. 45 times less, apparently

The average Londoner may earn 45 times more than the average Ukrainian.
45 times less than this is an awful lot of negative income.
--
Thoss

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Dave Arquati wrote:
http://manila.djh.dk/Ukraine/stories/storyReader$5
(Average *monthly* earnings of US$100 for Ukrainians, 2000)

Well for a start that report is over 6 years out of date and secondly
while that might possibly be true averaged as a whole over the country
there is a lot of money floating about in Kiev , and I'm not just talking
about the Mafia. Besides which , if everything cost 1/45th of that in
Britain then your argument may hold water , but lots of things , eg mobile
phones , radios, white goods, some foods, cost the same or more than they
do in britain.

The Kiev metro is nowhere near as extensive as the London Underground -
it has 59km of route and 45 stations (compared to 408km and 275
stations). Zone 1 would be comparable; a Zones 1&2 monthly travelcard
costs £85.30. Make of that what you will.

Yeah , this argument is frequently trotted out as if size has any bearing on
the running of a system. You might as well say that HSBC can't be expected
to be run as well as Northern Rock because its so much bigger. If you
have the staff & resources in place , clued up management and workers who
treat their jobs as a priviledge , not a right , then it would all work
smoothly. You don't, so it doesn't.

And if you don't think thats a valid point, go check out the Moscow Metro.
Its the busiest in the world and it runs just as well as the one in Kiev.

B2003

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On Sat, 20 May 2006 16:36:51 +0100, Clive
wrote:

In message , Arthur Figgis
] writes
Interesting. I've failed with Nationwide (they must have mopped up the
trainspotter market by now?) and Halifax, and Barclays come to think of
it, and I've heard of others coming unstuck. Maybe it is just us...
The most annoying I've come across is the NY subway, where you enter
down a flight of steps to be met with a machine and card operated gates.
The machine takes you card, takes the money, gives you the
single/reurn/multi-use ticket you choose, you swipe the ticket at the
barrier which takes one journey off said ticket but the gates say
invalid and don't let you through, even worse when with a partner who is
on the other side. When you do get to a manned station, they test your
ticket and tell you that as it's been swiped it's your own fault.

Parisians seem to be a lot more willing than Londoners to climb the
barriers when something goes wrong - perhaps down to having fewer
gateline staff.
--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

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wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
http://manila.djh.dk/Ukraine/stories/storyReader$5
(Average *monthly* earnings of US$100 for Ukrainians, 2000)

Well for a start that report is over 6 years out of date and secondly
while that might possibly be true averaged as a whole over the country
there is a lot of money floating about in Kiev , and I'm not just talking
about the Mafia. Besides which , if everything cost 1/45th of that in
Britain then your argument may hold water , but lots of things , eg mobile
phones , radios, white goods, some foods, cost the same or more than they
do in britain.

I accept that the report is out of date. Deeper digging (link below from
the IMF) has uncovered a figure for August 2004 of 604.2UAH, which is
about £64 at current exchange rates (in the absence of an exchange rate
for 2004). This is still 11.5% of London monthly wages (£2409).

http://www.imf.org/external/pubs/ft/scr/2005/cr0521.pdf

Although I accept that averages cover up fluctuations across the
country, the following ILO document (p46 in Acrobat Reader) suggests
that Kiev workers have a lower wage than the Ukrainian average. It is
out of date, but it shows that fluctuations go both ways.

http://www.ilo.org/public/english/pr...cs/ukraine.pdf

Finally, the key issue is that a Kiev ticket price of £2.80 is about
4.4% of monthly wages, whilst a London ticket for Zones 1&2 of £85.30 is
about 3.5% of monthly wages. Those percentages can be compared, unlike
the nominal values. If some goods cost the same or more than they do in
Britain, that means that Ukrainians have *even less* to spend on
transport. For example, if either buys a £30 radio, the Ukrainian has
£34 left to spend that month (of which transport would be 8%) whilst the
Londoner has £2379 left (of which transport would still be around 3.5%).

The Kiev metro is nowhere near as extensive as the London Underground -
it has 59km of route and 45 stations (compared to 408km and 275
stations). Zone 1 would be comparable; a Zones 1&2 monthly travelcard
costs £85.30. Make of that what you will.

Yeah , this argument is frequently trotted out as if size has any bearing on
the running of a system. You might as well say that HSBC can't be expected
to be run as well as Northern Rock because its so much bigger. If you
have the staff & resources in place , clued up management and workers who
treat their jobs as a priviledge , not a right , then it would all work
smoothly. You don't, so it doesn't.

I wasn't attempting to compare the running of the systems. I was only
comparing the ticket prices, which seem nearly equivalent. The reason I
"trotted out" the size of the system was that a travelcard on the Kiev
metro can only realistically be compared to a Zones 1&2 travelcard in
London because the London system is so much larger overall (thus making
a comparison with a Z1-6 travelcard a fallacy).

And if you don't think thats a valid point, go check out the Moscow Metro.
Its the busiest in the world and it runs just as well as the one in Kiev.

I am making no judgment about performance. I'd be very glad to check out
the Moscow Metro if someone will buy me a ticket to Moscow...

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

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On Fri, 19 May 2006 19:47:09 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

[Kiev metro]

The gates are swipe card/ enter token
on entry, one way turnstile on exit (as in other countries - much more sensible
than the bloody stupid london system where you have to use your ticket on exit too,
causing delays which are totally unnecessary)

That system only works where there is a flat fare.

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asdf
That system only works where there is a flat fare.

And thats what we should have in London. It works in other big cities,
no reason it can't work here. Except for the fact that we always think
we know best in Britain.

B2003

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Dave Arquati wrote:
Although I accept that averages cover up fluctuations across the
country, the following ILO document (p46 in Acrobat Reader) suggests
that Kiev workers have a lower wage than the Ukrainian average. It is

Thats contrary to my experience. Even if that were true , well lets
multiply the monthly card by 10. That still only makes it 28 quid.
Still 1/5th that of london.

metro can only realistically be compared to a Zones 1&2 travelcard in
London because the London system is so much larger overall (thus making
a comparison with a Z1-6 travelcard a fallacy).

So what if its larger? One of the metro lines goes a good 6 or 7 miles
out of the city centre. That would make it at least the same as zone 4
and if you take into account the fact that kiev is somewhat smaller
than london it would make it the equivalent of zone 6.

B2003

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From: "Richard J."
So, at what price would you set the flat fare for a single journey on
the Underground? Remember this has to be valid for, say, Waterloo to
Leicester Square as well as for, say, Northwood to Newbury Park.

Two pounds seems like a nice round number. A bit more expensive for
a within a single zone journey but a lot cheaper for all others.

No doubt there will be immediate bleatings about how the subsidy
required can't be afforded. Well in that case , give me the economic
case why other countries can afford it and the 4th richest country in
the world and one of the higher taxed (ie us), can't.

B2003