MIG wrote:
Paul Corfield wrote:
On 28 May 2006 02:56:35 -0700, "MIG"
wrote:

[snip everything already written]

It's really to do with the possibility of negative balance that has
been referred to elsewhere. If you had insufficient funds entering a
gated station, but the gate opened, you'd know that you were incurring
a negative balance that you had to top up later. But at an ungated
station, you wouldn't get such a cue.
If you had insufficient funds you would not get in. If your balance was
negative on entry you would not get in.

At a validator you should get an appropriate message, red warning light
and an invalid ticket "bleep". If you then proceeded to travel you
would not have a valid entry transaction on your card.

Then again, I don't know if the former ever happens. Maybe it doesn't.
I understood that the LU and DLR systems impose a deduction on entry for
pre-pay trips and you must have sufficient funds for that transaction or
else entry is not permitted. If a validating device rejects your card it
does not create any transaction on the card. The fee on entry was
originally going to be the maximum fare but that was changed to a much
lower value - I have seen nothing to suggest this has been changed. I
would say that the publicity surrounding this part of the pre-pay
concept is practically non existent.

Or maybe the negative balance is only applied if you do bleep out
within a certain time (even then, you could be returning, having got a
paper ticket the first time).
Negative balance can only happen on exit from rail systems as this is
when a balancing transaction is made to the card to cover the cost
incurred for the trip being made - the adjustment may be zero if your
journey cost is the same fare as deducted on entry; otherwise it would
be some other value up to the total fare due.

I understand that for bus trips only a positive cash balance is required
and the full fare is deducted on entry. Obviously there is not a
graduated system of fares by distance and no exit checking so this is
the only way the bus system can work. You can therefore have 10p on
your card and make a 80p charge thus leaving your card with a negative
balance of 70p.

But maybe the whole negative balance idea is a myth. It was just that
rumours of it made me wonder if I had been assumed to have made a
journey on an occasion where I bleeped in (got warning) and then got a
paper ticket.
Negative balance is not a myth and neither is having a positive yet
insufficient value of funds for an entry transaction (on the tube or
DLR).

Any clearer (assuming I'm right!) ?

I think so, and expanding a bit: if you haven't got enough funds for
the cheapest journey you could make, you get a warning and don't start
the journey. Negative balance is only possible if, having entered the
system, you then exit somewhere that implies a journey that would have
cost more than the minimum (and more than the balance), ie negative
balance is incurred only where it's a fait accompli after the journey
and you could legitimately have got in in the first place.

Unless it's a bus, when you start and finish the journey at the same
bleep. In which case, you mustn't see a warning and hop off again, and
the driver (if it's a straight bus) won't charge you.


An interesting aside (which may confuse the matter even further!) -
although you are supposed to need enough credit to cover the shortest
possible journey, I once managed to "force" a touch-in. I was boarding
at Amersham on the first train at a weekend; the ticket office was shut
and the machine wasn't working.

Although the gates were open, I made sure to touch in anyway, but it
rejected it as the balance was too low. There wasn't anything else I
could do, so I just went to get the train anyway, hoping to sort it out
at the other end; but I saw a validator on the platform (for people
interchanging to/from Chiltern's Aylesbury services) and touched in on
that, which it accepted (and thus accruing a large negative balance at
the end of my journey).

I wonder whether it is part of the setup to allow interchange passengers
more leeway because they would otherwise have to exit through a gateline
to top up, and then enter again.

--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:08:44 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
I understand that for bus trips only a positive cash balance is required
and the full fare is deducted on entry. Obviously there is not a
graduated system of fares by distance and no exit checking so this is
the only way the bus system can work. You can therefore have 10p on
your card and make a 80p charge thus leaving your card with a negative
balance of 70p.

I know you understand the system a lot better than most of us, Paul,
but I'm *sure* that I've seen a pre-pay Oyster rejected on the bus
because it only had 50p on it. It would make sense, wouldn't it, to
require = 80p?

Richard
(So farewell, then, N77)

On Tue, 30 May 2006 21:21:34 +0100, Richard
wrote:

On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:08:44 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
I understand that for bus trips only a positive cash balance is required
and the full fare is deducted on entry. Obviously there is not a
graduated system of fares by distance and no exit checking so this is
the only way the bus system can work. You can therefore have 10p on
your card and make a 80p charge thus leaving your card with a negative
balance of 70p.

I know you understand the system a lot better than most of us, Paul,
but I'm *sure* that I've seen a pre-pay Oyster rejected on the bus
because it only had 50p on it. It would make sense, wouldn't it, to
require = 80p?

I think it might be pushing it to say I understand it better simply
because I don't have to use public tickets on Oyster. I therefore don't
have the hassle factor that the public have to deal with. I have
searched in vain for information on whether there are publicised minimum
balances that have to be on the card before using it. Not unsurprisingly
there is no public information on "ask oyster", the "oyster guide" or
the "Fares and Tickets book 2006".

I cannot see why someone needs to have a minimum value of 80p (or £1 in
the AM Peak?) for bus travel. So long as the value is positive there
should not be an issue as there is no exit validation and need for any
further distance based deductions. The issue on the tube is different as
there is the potential for people to be stuck inside a gateline without
the inward check being made - at least that is what I believe the
reasoning is. I'm not saying you are mistaken btw - I can no more
confirm via the web what the situation is than you can which I think is
stupid. There really should be fully comprehensive information made
available - there seems to be a presumption that the public can't cope
with complex information. That may or not be true but the issue is that
the public have to comply with the complex rules so they should be
explained to them clearly.

I'm on holiday at present so I can't check any work sources until next
week but I shall try to do so.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Richard wrote:
On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:08:44 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
I understand that for bus trips only a positive cash balance is required
and the full fare is deducted on entry. Obviously there is not a
graduated system of fares by distance and no exit checking so this is
the only way the bus system can work. You can therefore have 10p on
your card and make a 80p charge thus leaving your card with a negative
balance of 70p.

I know you understand the system a lot better than most of us, Paul,
but I'm *sure* that I've seen a pre-pay Oyster rejected on the bus
because it only had 50p on it. It would make sense, wouldn't it, to
require = 80p?

I've definitely been rejected by a bus for being too cheap (i.e. having
less than 80p credit).


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
Richard wrote:
On Sun, 28 May 2006 11:08:44 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:
I understand that for bus trips only a positive cash balance is required
and the full fare is deducted on entry. Obviously there is not a
graduated system of fares by distance and no exit checking so this is
the only way the bus system can work. You can therefore have 10p on
your card and make a 80p charge thus leaving your card with a negative
balance of 70p.

I know you understand the system a lot better than most of us, Paul,
but I'm *sure* that I've seen a pre-pay Oyster rejected on the bus
because it only had 50p on it. It would make sense, wouldn't it, to
require = 80p?

I've definitely been rejected by a bus for being too cheap (i.e. having
less than 80p credit).


The other night I thought I was warning bleeped on a bus. It was very
crowded and the driver said nothing, and I assumed that I might find a
negative credit.

(I had actually thought I was beyond capping already, but then realised
that my first journey must have been before 0930, making that a short
bus ride costing £1.30.)

However, when I next topped up there was +20p on it. So does that mean
the driver should have kicked me off after I was rejected for only
having 20p? Or did I maybe have £1, before the bus, in which case I
was mistaken about the warning, or there was some other kind of warning
that I was being left with 20p?

I had no chance of seeing any message on the thing, barely being able
to reach it, but I thought it was a warning sort of noise.

"Colin Rosenstiel" wrote in message
...
In article .com,
(MIG) wrote:

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

I used my Oyster card to enter the tube the other evening by
mistake. I had a national rail paper ticket for the journey I was
making but in my hurry forgot to use it. I exited at the other end
using the paper ticket but was unable to clear the unresolved
journey because the ticket office at East Putney was closed and I
couldn't find a member of staff to talk to. As I was being met by my
mother in a waiting car I didn't have time to check for the staff
more thorough I assumed I could sort it out the next morning.

However when I came back the next morning the machine appeared to
show the journey as completed, certainly no unresolved journey. As
the ticket office was again closed the member of staff on the barrier
suggested I sort it at the other end. That seemed logical as it was
St James's Park, LU HQ.

However, the ticket office there confirmed that the journey showed
as resolved despite my lack of touching out (or other Oyster use)
since entering the system the previous evening. They could only
refer me to the helpline who did sort me out, thankfully.

So how did the journey get resolved?

I can't help answer that, but I've got another question which maybe
someone can answer at the same time.

If you bleep in (somewhere ungated like the DLR or a bendy bus) and it
tells you that you haven't got enough money, does it assume that you
are starting a journey or not? Given the possibility of negative
credit, maybe it would.

So if, having got the message, you then got a paper ticket (because it
was the DLR, say, and you had no time to find a shop) and went where
you were going, would you be left with an unresolved journey and
negative credit, or assumed to have travelled without a ticket or
what?

I don't think so. I thought I could go into the red and thereby avoid
the queues at the ludicrously inadequate temporary booking office at
King's Cross and top up at the other end. However it stopped me at the
gate without changing the balance so I had to waste time getting Oyster
credit in a most laborious manner.

Why don't the machines allow you to specify how much credit you want to
add and e.g. give change from cash? To add £6 to my Oyster to cover my
journeys on Tuesday/Wednesday I had to do a £5 credit card transaction
and then put a £1 coin in. If I'd have put a £10 note in, the smallest I
had on me, it would have insisted on adding it all the Oyster. In the
end I didn't even need the whole £6 so I now have some credit I probably
won't use for months.

You could select "Top-up pre-pay", then select enter amount, then enter £6,
put in £10, and get £4 change. I've even seen American tourists do it, so
it can't be that hard. (joke).

--
Colin Rosenstiel

In article ,
(d) wrote:

Why don't the machines allow you to specify how much credit you
want to add and e.g. give change from cash? To add £6 to my Oyster to
cover my journeys on Tuesday/Wednesday I had to do a £5 credit card
transaction and then put a £1 coin in. If I'd have put a £10 note
in, the smallest I had on me, it would have insisted on adding it
all the Oyster. In the end I didn't even need the whole £6 so I now
have some credit I probably won't use for months.

You could select "Top-up pre-pay", then select enter amount, then
enter £6, put in £10, and get £4 change. I've even seen American
tourists do it, so it can't be that hard. (joke).

OK. I didn't gather that was an option. What I really wanted to know was
how does that work with a plastic card rather than cash?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:03:16 GMT, d wrote:

Why don't the machines allow you to specify how much credit you want to
add and e.g. give change from cash? To add £6 to my Oyster to cover my
journeys on Tuesday/Wednesday I had to do a £5 credit card transaction
and then put a £1 coin in. If I'd have put a £10 note in, the smallest I
had on me, it would have insisted on adding it all the Oyster. In the
end I didn't even need the whole £6 so I now have some credit I probably
won't use for months.

You could select "Top-up pre-pay", then select enter amount, then enter £6,
put in £10, and get £4 change. I've even seen American tourists do it, so
it can't be that hard. (joke).

This is not an option on any Tube ticket machine I've ever seen. (I
even checked on my local one when I used it today.)

asdf wrote:
On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:03:16 GMT, d wrote:

Why don't the machines allow you to specify how much credit you want to
add and e.g. give change from cash? To add £6 to my Oyster to cover my
journeys on Tuesday/Wednesday I had to do a £5 credit card transaction
and then put a £1 coin in. If I'd have put a £10 note in, the smallest I
had on me, it would have insisted on adding it all the Oyster. In the
end I didn't even need the whole £6 so I now have some credit I probably
won't use for months.

You could select "Top-up pre-pay", then select enter amount, then enter £6,
put in £10, and get £4 change. I've even seen American tourists do it, so
it can't be that hard. (joke).

This is not an option on any Tube ticket machine I've ever seen. (I
even checked on my local one when I used it today.)


I'm pretty sure that I was able to select an amount other than the note
I put in at Kings Cross a few weeks ago. However, it was very late and
I may have been hallucinating.

In article . com,
(MIG) wrote:

asdf wrote:
On Wed, 05 Jul 2006 20:03:16 GMT, d wrote:

You could select "Top-up pre-pay", then select enter amount,
then enter £6, put in £10, and get £4 change. I've even seen
American tourists do it, so it can't be that hard. (joke).

This is not an option on any Tube ticket machine I've ever seen.
(I even checked on my local one when I used it today.)


I'm pretty sure that I was able to select an amount other than the
note I put in at Kings Cross a few weeks ago. However, it was very
late and I may have been hallucinating.

That can be done, but only by adding the amount actually inserted as
cash. I don't think (and I thought I tried this) you can persuade it to
give change.

--
Colin Rosenstiel