asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 07:48:30 +0100, Walter Briscoe wrote:

If Crossrail ever happens, things will be more interesting as Moorgate
and Liverpool Street will be one station - the trains will be long.

There's currently a similar sort of situation at Waterloo. Waterloo
(Jubilee) is an interchange station for Waterloo (NR), which is an
interchange station for Waterloo East (NR), which is an interchange
station for Southwark (Jubilee). The London Connections map shows them
all interconnected.

Charing Cross also has had an interesting history. Embankment Station
was once Charing Cross Underground station. The current CX was Strand
Northern Line and Trafalgar Square Bakerloo. The Embankment Station
Entrance is actually under the mainline platforms.

The CX & Embankment Northern Line stations must be very close to each
other.
Adrian.

asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?

That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.

Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.

Adrian

Solario wrote:

The CX & Embankment Northern Line stations must be very close to each
other.

Not as close as some (e.g. Covent Garden & Leicester Square). From
recollection the CX Northern line platforms are on the northern side of the
Strand whilst the Embankment ones stretch under the Thams (I think the loop
that formed the northern platform does). But one can still see the light at
end of the tunnel when looking north.

In article ,
(Tim Roll-Pickering) wrote:

Solario wrote:

The CX & Embankment Northern Line stations must be very close to
each other.

Not as close as some (e.g. Covent Garden & Leicester Square). From
recollection the CX Northern line platforms are on the northern side
of the Strand whilst the Embankment ones stretch under the Thams (I
think the loop that formed the northern platform does). But one can
still see the light at end of the tunnel when looking north.

I don;t think the Strand /platforms/ extend under the Thames, just the
former terminating loop which was walled off for the war and in fact the
only sub-Thames tube to be breached by bombing.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 17:07:09 +0100, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

The CX & Embankment Northern Line stations must be very close to each
other.

Not as close as some (e.g. Covent Garden & Leicester Square).

IIRC, CX and Embankment (Northern) are actually slightly closer
together, as the crow flies, than Leicester Square and Covent Garden,
but due to the curvature of the track, the distance by rail is
slightly longer.

(Or was it the other way round?)

Walter Briscoe wrote:

Reversing at Moorgate means eastbound trains cross the westbound line to
a single reversing platform.
At Aldgate, there are two reversing platforms between the east and west
bound lines.
Reversing at Moorgate is uncommon. I assume it only happens when there
is unusual congestion around Aldgate.

If Crossrail ever happens, things will be more interesting as Moorgate
and Liverpool Street will be one station - the trains will be long.
--
IIRC, Moorgate was extensively refurbished in the late 1970s. It seems
a waste now. The LU terminating platforms have not seen much use. I
guess after Thameslink "whatever" the station could become a
subterranean shopping mall!! :-)

Adrian.

Adrian Auer-Hudson, MIMIS wrote:
IIRC, Moorgate was extensively refurbished in the late 1970s. It
seems a waste now. The LU terminating platforms have not seen much
use.

Not entirely true. They don't see much in the way of scheduled use but they
tend to get used very regularly during the peak hours for turning back
trains from any of the three lines that they serve, in order to better
regulate services - for example, to get late incoming Met services back on
diagram, rather than running through to Aldgate and causing knock-on delays.
In the (regular) event of signal failure in the Aldgate area they are used
for turning back all Circle and H&C services, in that event Met line trains
(other than those in the section between Baker Street and Moorgate) tend to
get turned back at Baker Street.

wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?
That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.

Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.

AIUI there are already plans to ditch the Circle line in a few years
(after the new S stock is in place, I think) - by diverting the H&C east
of Liverpool Street to Edgware Road via Tower Hill and Victoria (the
"tea cup") and having the Met take over H&C services east of Liverpool
Street.


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Dave Arquati wrote:
wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?
That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.

Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.

AIUI there are already plans to ditch the Circle line in a few years
(after the new S stock is in place, I think) - by diverting the H&C east
of Liverpool Street to Edgware Road via Tower Hill and Victoria (the
"tea cup") and having the Met take over H&C services east of Liverpool
Street.



I was assured by someone commuting to Victoria via Liverpool Street
that the Circle Line was a myth, and it always had to be
Central/Victoria Lines.

But anyway, how would Aldgate to tower Hill be covered? How would
Edgware Road cope with terminating services from both Victoria and
Wimbledon? Is there a downloadable source for the plans?

MIG wrote:
Dave Arquati wrote:
wrote:
asdf wrote:
On Sat, 10 Jun 2006 00:45 +0100 (BST), Colin Rosenstiel wrote:

Isn't another reason simply the fact that the Aldgate terminating
platforms are between the Circle platforms so involve fewer conflicting
movements that at Moorgate or, when the bay existed there, at Liverpool
St?
That's quite correct. Terminating the Met at Moorgate (or Liverpool
Street) would cause more than twice as many conflicting moves as
running it through to Aldgate.
Then that is a good reason for the status quo. :-) All the same one
cannot help but think that the Circle line needs some simplification.
If Crossrail happens then that could be a good opportunity to review
Circle Line operation.
AIUI there are already plans to ditch the Circle line in a few years
(after the new S stock is in place, I think) - by diverting the H&C east
of Liverpool Street to Edgware Road via Tower Hill and Victoria (the
"tea cup") and having the Met take over H&C services east of Liverpool
Street.

I was assured by someone commuting to Victoria via Liverpool Street
that the Circle Line was a myth, and it always had to be
Central/Victoria Lines.

Having frequently attempted Gloucester Road to Marylebone, the
Picc/Bakerloo was always much more reliable than the Circle. So I agree
- I have much more faith in the Central & Victoria lines than the Circle!

But anyway, how would Aldgate to tower Hill be covered? How would
Edgware Road cope with terminating services from both Victoria and
Wimbledon? Is there a downloadable source for the plans?

Aldgate to Tower Hill would be covered by the new H&C service (which
would be Hammersmith - Edgware Rd - Liverpool St - Aldgate - Tower Hill
- Victoria - Edgware Road).

The available information is getting a bit old now. I have a summary on
my site which doesn't go into much more detail than this; there are also
a couple of other pages more worth looking at:

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/39
http://www.trainweb.org/tubeprune/SS...%20Upgrade.htm
http://www.trainweb.org/districtdave...ade_plans.html


--
Dave Arquati
Imperial College, SW7
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London