Letter from TfL to FCC
 

In message , at 14:14:20 on
Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Peter Masson remarked:
There has been much redevelopment in the area, including the railway
line going "underground" much earlier (as it emerges from Blackfriars)
and the construction of City Thameslink, whose northern exit is pretty
much where Holborn Viaduct used to be.

I haven't been there for some time, but when St Pauls/City Thameslink
opened, the northern exit went through the concourse of the former Holborn
Viaduct station.

Today, it emerges under an office block and a short alleyway to the main
road.
--
Roland Perry

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

Richard J. wrote:

There is a clear need to distinguish the Thameslink *service* from other
routes that FCC operate, and if FCC are in fact removing the Thameslink
name or even seeking to change station names that include "Thameslink",
then I think that Ian Brown is absolutely right to try to stop it.

At Moorgate, the signs still direct national rail passengers to the
"Thameslink" or "WAGN" platforms (depending on whether you want to go
to KX Thameslink or to Finsbury Park). Staff also use these names on
the handwritten whiteboard that announces temporary disruptions,
sometimes with First Capital Connect in brackets after it.

I think that not only should the name "Thameslink" be retained, but the
name "Great Northern" (or something better) be resurrected to refer to
the Moorgate-Finsbury Park (and beyond) line. You can still make out
the painted-over words "Great Northern Electrics" on some (not very)
old signs.

PaulO

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

On 4 Jul 2006 06:44:09 -0700, Paul Oter wrote:

I think that not only should the name "Thameslink" be retained, but the
name "Great Northern" (or something better) be resurrected to refer to
the Moorgate-Finsbury Park (and beyond) line. You can still make out
the painted-over words "Great Northern Electrics" on some (not very)
old signs.

At Highbury & Islington, the signs still direct passengers towards
"British Rail (Eastern)".

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

In uk.railway Joe Patrick wrote:
I don't know why so, the lack of a distinguished brand and plastering
of "National Express" all over their bus & rail operations, along with
the same for Stagecoach's rail operations & certain bus operations
(MagicBus/MegaBus/et al.) hasn't really harmed the companies' share
prices, has it?

Stagecoach seem to be a bit confused about this one. They used to heavily
brand 'Stagecoach SWT' but have dropped the 'Stagecoach' bit, but it's very
definitely 'Stagecoach Island Line'. Any ideas why?

Theo

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

In message .com, at
06:44:09 on Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Paul Oter
remarked:
I think that not only should the name "Thameslink" be retained, but the
name "Great Northern" (or something better) be resurrected to refer to
the Moorgate-Finsbury Park (and beyond) line. You can still make out
the painted-over words "Great Northern Electrics" on some (not very)
old signs.

This is a bit like the distinction between "ECML" and "GNER", "WCML" and
"Virgin". Are we being boring by assuming that people can't discriminate
between the route and the operator? Are the operators making things
worse when they alter the signs?
--
Roland Perry

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
06:44:09 on Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Paul Oter remarked:
I think that not only should the name "Thameslink" be retained, but the
name "Great Northern" (or something better) be resurrected to refer to
the Moorgate-Finsbury Park (and beyond) line. You can still make out
the painted-over words "Great Northern Electrics" on some (not very)
old signs.

This is a bit like the distinction between "ECML" and "GNER", "WCML" and
"Virgin". Are we being boring by assuming that people can't discriminate
between the route and the operator? Are the operators making things
worse when they alter the signs?

In the past, sets of routes (like ECML, WCML &c.) have generally been
unique to a particular toc, so there has been no need to differentiate
between rote and toc. Now we have the situation where two quite
independent routes running in very close proximity are run by the same
toc. In this case it is essential to differentiate rote from toc. The
closest example I can think of is WAGN at Cambridge, but in that case,
it was quite clear whether a train was to/from Kings Cross or Liverpool
Street, and no need to give signs to different routes because they use
the same set of platforms. It is for exactly these reasons that London
Underground came up with such a robust system of line branding, with
names and colours so clearly used for separate lines*. Imagine if all
London Underground lines lost their identities, and you arrive at Kings
Cross - St.P. to hear an announcement that "there are severe delays to
London Underground services".

* I think this is why so many people ignore the platform numbers at LU
stations. You talk about the Bakerloo northbound platform rather than
platform x.

Robin

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

Roland Perry wrote:

Nope, the route was branded 'Thameslink', including all the same stations
as
they are today, by NSE from opening in May 1987.

Although City Thameslink was originally called St Pauls Thameslink
(renamed in '91).

Although there were still some signs and maps up calling it "St Paul's
Thameslink" as late as 1994/5. It could be quite confusing for passengers at
times.

Equally some of the "one" (or is it First Great Eastern - Forest Gate
station and the commuter services are a hideous mix of names and colour
schemes from the past decade) trains still display mid 1999 London
connections maps - it must be confusing for people to not realise what
connections are now available from Stratford.

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Roland Perry wrote:

Nope, the route was branded 'Thameslink', including all the same
stations
as
they are today, by NSE from opening in May 1987.

Although City Thameslink was originally called St Pauls Thameslink
(renamed in '91).

Although there were still some signs and maps up calling it "St Paul's
Thameslink" as late as 1994/5. It could be quite confusing for passengers
at
times.

The tiling on the Bakerloo Line platform at Marylebone still proclaims the
name of the station to be 'Great Central'. The name of the Bakerloo station
was changed to Marylebone on 15 April 1917.

Peter

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

In article , (Roland
Perry) wrote:

In message , at 14:14:20 on
Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Peter Masson remarked:
There has been much redevelopment in the area, including the
railway line going "underground" much earlier (as it emerges from
Blackfriars) and the construction of City Thameslink, whose
northern exit is pretty much where Holborn Viaduct used to be.

I haven't been there for some time, but when St Pauls/City Thameslink
opened, the northern exit went through the concourse of the former
Holborn Viaduct station.

Today, it emerges under an office block and a short alleyway to the
main road.

So did the concourse of Holborn Viaduct station after the office block
was built in the 1960s! Is it the same one?

--
Colin Rosenstiel

Letter from TfL to FCC
 

R.C. Payne wrote:
Roland Perry wrote:
In message .com, at
06:44:09 on Tue, 4 Jul 2006, Paul Oter remarked:
I think that not only should the name "Thameslink" be retained, but the
name "Great Northern" (or something better) be resurrected to refer to
the Moorgate-Finsbury Park (and beyond) line. You can still make out
the painted-over words "Great Northern Electrics" on some (not very)
old signs.

This is a bit like the distinction between "ECML" and "GNER", "WCML" and
"Virgin". Are we being boring by assuming that people can't discriminate
between the route and the operator? Are the operators making things
worse when they alter the signs?

In the past, sets of routes (like ECML, WCML &c.) have generally been
unique to a particular toc, so there has been no need to differentiate
between rote and toc. Now we have the situation where two quite
independent routes running in very close proximity are run by the same
toc. In this case it is essential to differentiate rote from toc. (snip)

The issue at Moorgate (unlike Cambridge) is that there are two
completely different services which run from dedicated platforms in
completely different parts of the station. Furthermore (and unlike
Cambridge), there isn't a screen showing all departures from the
station in a single list, with platform numbers for each departure.
There therefore needs to be some signs which contain enough information
to tell people which platform to go to catch their train.

I suppose signs which said "First Capital Connect trains to King's
Cross, St Albans, Luton and Bedford" and "First Capital Connect trains
to Highbury and Islington, Finsbury Park, Welwyn Garden City and
Hertford North" would be adequate if laborious, but these would need to
be changed every few years whenever the TOC changed. Much better to
have standard route names which don't keep changing.

PaulO