2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote in message
...

"Jonathan Morris" wrote in message
ups.com...
Brian Begg-Robertson wrote:
PS A similar pair were locked up in Manchester not so long ago. It's a
bloody waste of money and, in the long term, turns bad lads worse.

There is not one scrap of evidence to prove that prison cuts crime rates.
NOT ONE SCRAP. Put the b*st*rds out on chain gangs 9-5 and have them
cleaning graffiti.of trains and walls themselves, but don't pretend that
prison is anything but writing off a young person for life.

Wrong, the crime rates have gone down significantly as the number of
prisoners has gone up. Its a little harder, though not impossible to
commit a crime when you are in prison.

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On 2 Sep 2006 16:51:21 -0700 someone who may be "
wrote this:-

Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Why not? We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than
that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the
World. From where do you think Singapore took its example?

Is "penal code" a phrase used in any of the various legal systems in
the UK?

When was this "delightful" era and when was it abolished?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On 2 Sep 2006 12:46:09 -0700 someone who may be
wrote this:-

Today's Daily Telegraph runs a glossy 3-page piece spread glamourising
so-called "graffers" and their work.

Have they changed their stance on Laura Norder, or are they being
ironic?


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've
been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim
of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had
the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back
and
tell us how wonderful it was.

Well, if I was found with an album of graffiti images and dozens of
spray cans in my home and claimed "mistaken identity" (as someone I
once prosecuted was - and acquitted!), and had the crap beaten out of
me, I don't expect I'd get much sympathy.

That's the ticket, change the goalposts and up the ante.

Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Why not?

Societies' regimes work in their respective real worlds. If you were
prepared to expand the police force several fold and give them military
backup, perhaps you could make such a regime work in the UK.

We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than
that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the
World.

Bull****.

From where do you think Singapore took its example?

It reflects its own society.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is
not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution,
the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

What evidence do you have that wanton vandalism and hooliganism by
youths (the crimes we are dealing with in this thread) is worse in
Saudi Arabia?

Ah, naughty Tim can't discuss anything other than what you want him to.
Perhaps there will be wife beating questions next. But on a serious note,
crime rates are worse in Saudi than in the UK. Worse to the extent that
foreign nationals can't roam the streets freely - which suggests that the
local crims are armed with something more serious than spray paint.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But
overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to
tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings?

Here's a list of "rights" I'd happily deny to my fellow human beings:-

The right to make others' lives a misery
The right to cost the State and private companies millions of Pounds in
clearing up the mess made
The right to vandalise any property, public or private

Rest of tiresome drivel snipped

Committing a crime isn't a right. OTOH subjecting alleged criminals to due
process, while treating them as fellow human beings, shows a society that is
above mob rule and is civilised. And before we get the "yah boo softie"
crowd kicking off, being civilised doesn't mean accepting the abuse of
others' property. Which I do not.

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

Jack May wrote:
Wrong, the crime rates have gone down significantly as the number of
prisoners has gone up. Its a little harder, though not impossible to
commit a crime when you are in prison.

The problem we have, which can make it look like prison doesn't work,
is that it's so easy to get away with committing a crime these days.

It's not just the anti-social stuff, but the fact the police are
stretched, made to do 'visible policing' that takes them away from the
crime hotspots and puts them on shopping streets, outside Parliament
and train stations etc, rely on CSOs to deter the very people that know
they can stick their fingers up at someone not given the power to
arrest (as most aren't) or have had their job replaced by a camera that
catches a specific offender and ignores everything else.

It's not even easy to report a crime these days. The desk staff (often
completely civilian) are so disinterested that they effectively
encourage you to keep quiet, which only helps criminals get away with
even more. If I need to go to the police station, I have to do it in
office hours too! Finally, at night, some parts of Hertfordshire makes
do with one car that might have to travel from miles away to respond to
something. Couple a lack of police, and no desire to report a crime,
and is it any wonder that petty criminals advance themselves without
having to learn from 'someone on the inside'?

Jonathan

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

Tim Fenton wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've
been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim
of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had
the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back
and
tell us how wonderful it was.

Well, if I was found with an album of graffiti images and dozens of
spray cans in my home and claimed "mistaken identity" (as someone I
once prosecuted was - and acquitted!), and had the crap beaten out of
me, I don't expect I'd get much sympathy.

That's the ticket, change the goalposts and up the ante.

Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

Why not?

Societies' regimes work in their respective real worlds. If you were
prepared to expand the police force several fold and give them military
backup, perhaps you could make such a regime work in the UK.

We used to have as harsh a penal code (if not harsher) than
that in Singapore and it was not only "tolerated" but an example to the
World.

Bull****.

From where do you think Singapore took its example?

It reflects its own society.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is
not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution,
the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

What evidence do you have that wanton vandalism and hooliganism by
youths (the crimes we are dealing with in this thread) is worse in
Saudi Arabia?

Ah, naughty Tim can't discuss anything other than what you want him to.
Perhaps there will be wife beating questions next. But on a serious note,
crime rates are worse in Saudi than in the UK. Worse to the extent that
foreign nationals can't roam the streets freely - which suggests that the
local crims are armed with something more serious than spray paint.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know. But
overall, Brian's statement has much to commend it. Perhaps you'd like to
tell us which rights should be denied to your fellow human beings?

Here's a list of "rights" I'd happily deny to my fellow human beings:-

The right to make others' lives a misery
The right to cost the State and private companies millions of Pounds in
clearing up the mess made
The right to vandalise any property, public or private

Rest of tiresome drivel snipped

Committing a crime isn't a right. OTOH subjecting alleged criminals to due
process, while treating them as fellow human beings, shows a society that is
above mob rule and is civilised. And before we get the "yah boo softie"
crowd kicking off, being civilised doesn't mean accepting the abuse of
others' property. Which I do not.

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

Tim, how many hours of your life have you spent in a Youth Court?

I have recently been appointed Prosecution Counsel for 3 months to the
Inner London Youth Courts and, amongst my friends and colleagues (who
both prosecute and defend, as I did until recently, and will do again
after November) and there is virtual unanimity amongst us on the
complete and utter breakdown of the youth justice system. It's a nice
earner for the lawyers (on both sides) but does little or nothing to
deter youth crime - surely one of its primary aims?

Of course I am not realistically suggesting birching youths (although I
personally do not have any philosophical objections to corporal
punishment), but you would regard with incredulity just how RARE it is
for a youth, whatever the crime, to be given a custodial sentence.

Last week, I prosecuted a youth for his 7th or 8th street robbery.
Result? Yet another Supervision Order - which he had already breached
on several occasions.

We certainly have "due process" (and you would, I hope, be impressed by
how impartial and fair Court proceedings are, especially if I'm
prosecuting - I certainly adhere to the principle that it's better that
10 guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted, and do not
hesitate to drop cases when appropriate), the trouble is it's just a
conveyor belt of crime, prosectution, meanlingless sentence, crime,
prosecution, meanlingless sentence etc., etc. Deterrence plays no part
whatsoever.

In my view, it should.

Marc.

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 14:15:37 +0100, David Hansen wrote:

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard.

Not allowed, I forget the reason why.

However, it might be worth glueing these scumbags to the front of a
train and taking them for a ride they are unlikely to forget,
perhaps between London and some place an hour or so away. They might
not be keen to repeat such an experience.

Are you joking? Some people would pay good money for that!

I can see it now... "Train vandalism epidemic as enthusiasts seek free
(external) cab rides"

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On Sat, 02 Sep 2006 19:04:04 +0100, Christian Hansen wrote:


I object to paying my good tax money to keep miscreants like this in jail for
even a few months, much less the rest of their lives.

There are a couple of tried and true ways of dealing with this kind of person:

1) Make them clean the outside of the trains they (or others) have spoiled.
Then make them clean the insides of trains for a long period of community
service. They won't want to try it again. The only problem with this is that
the workers whose jobs these are aren't keen to let the miscreants take them
over. The solution to that is to make the workers the managers of these kids
while they're doing the work.

2) If they're actually artistic, besides (1) give them a legal canvas to do
their work on. It worked in New York City when I lived there. This does not
work unless (1) is also used.

LU have a similar tactic to this. Trains of withdrawn 1983 stock are
placed at strategic locations around the network. They are then
allowed to become completely covered in graffiti. Each time one of
these decoys is vandalised, it's one less cleanup job on an actual
service train.

;-)

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Tim Fenton
gently breathed:
"Pyromancer" wrote in message
...

Indeed, this does appear to be true - though it depends on your concept
of what a prison is for.

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back and
tell us how wonderful it was. Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

I would have no problem going there if a suitable job happened to come
up - in fact I'll probably go there eventually as a tourist as my
parents spent time there in the 1960s. As for avoiding trouble, it's
easy, just don't break the law.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution, the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

We're specifically talking about anti-social behaviour, especially the
evils of graffiti. Saudi Arabia has it's own unique problems, and is
hardly a valid like-for-like comparison with a secular western
democracy.

Far
better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just
learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on
giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner
to run.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know.

There are many news reports on the subject - and not just the Daily Wail
ones. Recently it was, ISTR reported that prisoners not having TVs was
regarded as somehow a problem. Prisoners should count themselves lucky
to have books, all forms of electronic entertainment should be
completely banned.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, The Sunday Goth Social, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP!
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

wrote in message
oups.com...

snip

Tim, how many hours of your life have you spent in a Youth Court?

None, but ...

I have recently been appointed Prosecution Counsel for 3 months to the
Inner London Youth Courts

.... I see that you will know as well as I do, that committing crime is not a
right.

Of course I am not realistically suggesting birching youths (although I
personally do not have any philosophical objections to corporal
punishment), but you would regard with incredulity just how RARE it is
for a youth, whatever the crime, to be given a custodial sentence.

We'll have to agree to disagree here. I don't go with any kind of corporal
punishment, if only because it gives the crims the idea that beating folks
up is OK.

We certainly have "due process" (and you would, I hope, be impressed by
how impartial and fair Court proceedings are, especially if I'm
prosecuting - I certainly adhere to the principle that it's better that
10 guilty men go free than one innocent man is convicted, and do not
hesitate to drop cases when appropriate), the trouble is it's just a
conveyor belt of crime, prosectution, meanlingless sentence, crime,
prosecution, meanlingless sentence etc., etc. Deterrence plays no part
whatsoever.

IANAL and all that, but AFAIK the Youth system is different, no? Because of,
presumably, the age of the youths concerned. I suspect that we both agree
that robbery is not an acceptable form of behaviour - graffiti is more of an
irritant, but robbery is to my mind abuse of personal property and out of
order.

We both would prefer that such things don't happen, but the problem is: how
do you deter, if you're going to go down that road? To get a real grip would
involve more than taking folks through the court system. By the time they
arrive in your neck of the woods, in many cases the damage is done and the
chance of getting them to desist overnight is therefore slim. But equally I
don't go with the US idea of warehousing the criminally inclined, as this
really doesn't work, seemingly on any level.

Part of street crime has to do with the aquisition of money to pay for
expensive habits involving substances that have over time been decreed to be
illegal - anyone trying to address that issue will get nowhere while the
righteous end of the press won't allow anyone to discuss it without
screaming "softie". Part of it no doubt is to aquire money to pay for the
keeping up with everyone else that has certain gizmos, labels, whatever.
That, I'm afraid, is part of the obsessions of modern society. And part of
it may well just be for sad young men and women to prove that they're big
and hard. None of these are easy, uncomplicated and/or black and white
issues.

Any of that being addressed by locking up the culprits won't stop the next
such crime. And the next. And so on.

At this point I'm always reminded of the time (by definition many years ago)
when Bob Wilson, then a pundit for ITV Sport, went to Nottingham Forest to
get his ritual lecture from Cloughie on football, life and the rest. Wilson
asked the great man "Brian, what about all the hooliganism - what can we do
about it?". Cloughie leaned forward and replied quietly "Starts at home,
young man".

He was right. There has to be a process in any person's formative years
whereby they understand that certain behaviours are acceptable, and certain
others are not. The idea that the justice system is a catch-all that will
straighten out everyone who misses out on that process is dangerously
simplistic.

That might not stop the creeps spraying trains, or turning up on your manor
tomorrow, but what did you expect - a happy ending? g

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

John Mara wrote:
wrote:




That's a curious interpretation of the duty of government! My house is
private property too, but I'd be pretty shocked if I were told that
someone who vandalised it would not be searched for or prosecuted
because it was private property and therefore my duty to find and
obtain redress privately.

I would not be at all shocked if the police took a report, gave you a
copy for your insurance company, and filed the report away.


Yes, of course that's what they'd do, but it's not the same as saying
(as I thought you were) "sorry, that's private property - none of the
state's business." Maybe I misinterpreted what you said but.....


John, you misunderstand the purpose of the criminal justice system. It
is not to obtain redress between citizens - which is why compensation
is rarely paid and only in nominal sums.

I understand the purpose of the criminal justice system. I am saying
that privatization looks good on paper because many costs are still
borne by the taxpayers. The railway companies do not provide adequate
security for their facilities and they expect the government to make up
for their lack of effort.


Surely the cost of prosecuting (and preventing crime in general) is
borne by the taxpayer whether the property concerned is publicly-owned
(as it would be if the railways were still nationalised) or privately
owned. I understand your concerns over privatisation of the railways,
and probably agree with your view of that, but what has this got to do
with the state prosecuting criminals?


Marc.

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

John Mara wrote:
SNIP
I understand the purpose of the criminal justice system. I am saying
that privatization looks good on paper because many costs are still
borne by the taxpayers. The railway companies do not provide adequate
security for their facilities and they expect the government to make up
for their lack of effort.

Given that rail companies have to pay directly for the services of BTP
whereas comparable non rail transport companies have the services of
home office forces for free, I would think that rail is a bad example
to use to promote this theory.

George

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

In message .com, at
08:51:12 on Sun, 3 Sep 2006, furnessvale remarked:
Given that rail companies have to pay directly for the services of BTP
whereas comparable non rail transport companies have the services of
home office forces for free

Gosh, did Gordon reduce business rates to zero while I wasn't watching?
--
Roland Perry

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"John Mara" wrote

I guess I was looking at it more from the policing side than the
prosecution side. Did British Rail have railway police? Do the new
private companies have their own police?

British Transport Police are a national police force, funded by the rail
industry. They predated British Rail, and trace their history back to 1826,
making them one of the oldest police forces in the world.

http://www.btp.police.uk/History%20S...ety%20Main.htm

Peter

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:51:42 +0100 someone who may be asdf
wrote this:-

However, it might be worth glueing these scumbags to the front of a
train and taking them for a ride they are unlikely to forget,
perhaps between London and some place an hour or so away. They might
not be keen to repeat such an experience.

Are you joking? Some people would pay good money for that!

No problem, they can be stuck on the front too. The insurance
premiums would probably mean it was rather expensive though.

I doubt if many enthusiasts would damage the trains they are
enthusiastic about in order to get a free experience.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On 3 Sep 2006 03:52:24 -0700 someone who may be "jonmorris"
wrote this:-

It's not even easy to report a crime these days. The desk staff (often
completely civilian)

Unless things have changed recently, without my noticing it, police
officers are still civilians.

Of course some police officers do demonstrate a wish not to be
civilians. Prancing around with larger and larger guns, increasingly
masked and so on.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"John Mara" wrote in message
...

As far a getting rid of graffiti goes, the New York City Transit Authority
got rid of graffiti by cleaning it up as soon as it happened. There were
graffiti cleaning crews at most terminals. I was once on a train which
had some fresh graffiti on one side. I was sitting in the first car so I
overheard the radio conversation between the train operator and the
dispatcher.

Hopefully not "Pelham 123, come in please" g

We had to wait for the other terminal track to open up so that the
graffiti would be on the platform side where the cleaners could get at it.

This seemed to be the approach taken by the Barcelona Metro - you had to be
sharp to see graffiti. It was dealt with as a priority. The only evidence of
vandalism you *could* see was ...

On the other hand, NYCTA has had no luck at dealing with window
scratching.

.... yep, you got it.

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"Pyromancer" wrote in message
...

Graffiti scum should be birched, hard. That's what they do in
Singapore, and it does work, remember all the hue and cry a few years
ago when they were going to birch an American boy who thought he was
above their laws? They have very little anti-social behaviour, simply
because they punish those who try it, in a harsh, painful, way. It's
quick, cheap, and doesn't cause any significant lasting damage.

Fine. I look forward to your spending some time out there. Once you've
been
found in the wrong part of Singapore at the wrong time, been the victim of
mistaken identity, or otherwise found to have transgressed, and have had
the
crap officially and ritually beaten out of you, by all means come back and
tell us how wonderful it was. Some societies are prepared to tolerate a
regime like that in Singapore - the UK wouldn't.

I would have no problem going there if a suitable job happened to come
up - in fact I'll probably go there eventually as a tourist as my
parents spent time there in the 1960s. As for avoiding trouble, it's
easy, just don't break the law.

Yes, those nice men from Forest Gate would no doubt agree with you, as would
all manner of unfortunate Irishmen over the years. What if the Singaporeans
have an official dislike of all things Goth? Or a downer on rail enthusiasts
celebrating anything Hellfire? Who knows, in a society where chewing gum is
frowned upon.

Noticeable that the example of how wonderful harsh punishment can be is
not
Saudi Arabia, where, despite a regime which includes public execution, the
crime rate is far worse than in the UK.

We're specifically talking about anti-social behaviour, especially the
evils of graffiti.

Of course, terrorism and murder are a mere sideshow when the main event is,
er, graffiti. Does anyone realise just how potty this kind of argument
sounds? Let's ignore the elephants and kick seven shades out of a few mice.

Saudi Arabia has it's own unique problems, and is
hardly a valid like-for-like comparison with a secular western
democracy.

Like the USA, perchance? Capital punishment, and warehousing of the
criminally inclined, yet crime just carries right on.

Far
better that sending them to a cushy jail where as you say, they just
learn how to do more crimes while enjoying all the "rights" we insist on
giving them, and costing about 12k a year (or is it 20k?) per prisoner
to run.

I've never been to jail, so whether they are "cushy" I don't know.

There are many news reports on the subject

And you haven't been there either.

--
Tim

Fly Monarch Airlines - feed that paranoia

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

David Hansen wrote:
I doubt if many enthusiasts would damage the trains they are
enthusiastic about in order to get a free experience.

I can recall a fair number of instances where the booked loco for a
certain working has been deliberately vandalised so that a replacement
of more interest to the "basher" had to be substituted. I have also
dealt with cases where "enthusiasts" have wrecked a coach in their
orgasm of delight at the sound of a 37 or 40 for example.

Strange people.......

George

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

Tim Fenton wrote
Yes, those nice men from Forest Gate would no doubt agree with you, as would
all manner of unfortunate Irishmen over the years. What if the Singaporeans
have an official dislike of all things Goth? Or a downer on rail enthusiasts
celebrating anything Hellfire? Who knows, in a society where chewing gum is
frowned upon.

Chewing gum used to be Verboten in Singapore BUT the authorities
were lent on by Uncle Sam who had WRIGLEYS lobbying to get a foot in.

So chewing gum is sold now.
Singapore is a nice clean place -but the saying goes when in Rome do as
the Romans do.
So IF i was in to using certain substances i wouldn't dream of wanting
to get caught there (Singapore and or Malaya) in possession.

Anyway having cucumber sandwiches and tea at Raffles in the afternoon
and then nipping for a gin sling is a nice experience.
--
d hill

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

David Hansen wrote:
Unless things have changed recently, without my noticing it, police
officers are still civilians.

The desk staff can have little or no training, giving completely
incorrect advice.

I even got grief from the police for not producing an MOT certificate
on a car that was just two years old! How many producers do they
normally deal with? Surely not everyone stopped has an old car?!

Jonathan

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On 3 Sep 2006 12:15:19 -0700 someone who may be "furnessvale"
wrote this:-


David Hansen wrote:
I doubt if many enthusiasts would damage the trains they are
enthusiastic about in order to get a free experience.

I can recall a fair number of instances where the booked loco for a
certain working has been deliberately vandalised so that a replacement
of more interest to the "basher" had to be substituted. I have also
dealt with cases where "enthusiasts" have wrecked a coach in their
orgasm of delight at the sound of a 37 or 40 for example.

I doubt if such people represent more than a small minority of
enthusiasts.

Strange people.......

If people were all the same the world would be very boring.


--
David Hansen, Edinburgh
I will *always* explain revoked encryption keys, unless RIP prevents me
http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2000/00023--e.htm#54

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 12:15:19 -0700 someone who may be "furnessvale"
wrote this:-


David Hansen wrote:
I doubt if many enthusiasts would damage the trains they are
enthusiastic about in order to get a free experience.

I can recall a fair number of instances where the booked loco for a
certain working has been deliberately vandalised so that a replacement
of more interest to the "basher" had to be substituted. I have also
dealt with cases where "enthusiasts" have wrecked a coach in their
orgasm of delight at the sound of a 37 or 40 for example.

I doubt if such people represent more than a small minority of
enthusiasts.

Strange people.......

If people were all the same the world would be very boring.

True, we all need our share of thieves, criminal damagers, rapists and
murderers to liven up our humdrum lives. Perhaps I can send a wrecker
round to your place to make your day:-)

George

Policing and form of transport was 2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:51:07 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message .com, at
08:51:12 on Sun, 3 Sep 2006, furnessvale remarked:
Given that rail companies have to pay directly for the services of BTP
whereas comparable non rail transport companies have the services of
home office forces for free

Gosh, did Gordon reduce business rates to zero while I wasn't watching?
I assume that rail companies also pay the business rates. Major
terminals for most forms of transport have some kind of security force
with varying amounts of police power. Rail is probably unusual in
also providing a security presence on the right of way.

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

Brian Begg-Robertson ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

Oh for God's sake, listen to yourselves! You just harden people like
that by giving them the birch. We have whole areas of the country
where the gun is king and people cary them knowing that to do so
shortens their own life expectancy to mid 20s if they are lucky, and
you expect them to respect the birch. Kids these days are savages.
Lock them up, throw the key away, pretend that it will make them
better people. It wont!

OK, fine.

So... Prison won't work for 'em. Corporal punishment won't work for 'em.

What DO you suggest? Or are you just overwhelmingly negative about
everything?

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

Brian Begg-Robertson ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying :

Why do they have to spend money clearing up after them? Does 'well
done' graffiti actually do much harm? Some of it can be very artistic
and can add to the character of an area, and as far as trains are
concerned might even be considered to be preferable to the garish
colour schemes used by some TOCs.

Just when I thought that some of the answers could not get anymore silly.

Ever heard of Banksy?

Policing and form of transport was 2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

In message , at 12:20:14 on
Mon, 4 Sep 2006, Clark F Morris remarked:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:51:07 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message .com, at
08:51:12 on Sun, 3 Sep 2006, furnessvale remarked:
Given that rail companies have to pay directly for the services of BTP
whereas comparable non rail transport companies have the services of
home office forces for free

Gosh, did Gordon reduce business rates to zero while I wasn't watching?
I assume that rail companies also pay the business rates.

And they also get the "normal" police involved seemingly as often as the
BTP (for incidents at stations, anyway).

--
Roland Perry

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"furnessvale" wrote in message
oups.com...

David Hansen wrote:
On 3 Sep 2006 12:15:19 -0700 someone who may be "furnessvale"
wrote this:-


David Hansen wrote:
I doubt if many enthusiasts would damage the trains they are
enthusiastic about in order to get a free experience.

I can recall a fair number of instances where the booked loco for a
certain working has been deliberately vandalised so that a replacement
of more interest to the "basher" had to be substituted. I have also
dealt with cases where "enthusiasts" have wrecked a coach in their
orgasm of delight at the sound of a 37 or 40 for example.

I doubt if such people represent more than a small minority of
enthusiasts.

Strange people.......

If people were all the same the world would be very boring.

True, we all need our share of thieves, criminal damagers, rapists and
murderers to liven up our humdrum lives. Perhaps I can send a wrecker
round to your place to make your day:-)

George
I don't think he said or impied the two sentences above so why write them?

Policing and form of transport was 2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"Clark F Morris" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 17:51:07 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message .com, at
08:51:12 on Sun, 3 Sep 2006, furnessvale remarked:
Given that rail companies have to pay directly for the services of BTP
whereas comparable non rail transport companies have the services of
home office forces for free

Gosh, did Gordon reduce business rates to zero while I wasn't watching?
I assume that rail companies also pay the business rates. Major
terminals for most forms of transport have some kind of security force
with varying amounts of police power. Rail is probably unusual in
also providing a security presence on the right of way.

Operational railway land is not subject to rates.

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

In message , asdf
writes

LU have a similar tactic to this. Trains of withdrawn 1983 stock are
placed at strategic locations around the network. They are then
allowed to become completely covered in graffiti. Each time one of
these decoys is vandalised, it's one less cleanup job on an actual
service train.

In fairness, that's not the real reason they are parked up there.

They were intended to provide us with some extra stock on the Picc to
enhance what was available. LU isn't exactly blessed with lots of
unused sidings so they ended up stored in places like Uxbridge and South
Arrer.

Once they decided that this plan wasn't going to work, they have slowly
been removed for scrapping. Once of the main problems now is that
they've been there for so long that the only way out is to be lifted
onto a low loader.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Policing and form of transport was 2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

In message , at
15:26:13 on Mon, 4 Sep 2006, Bigguy
remarked:
I assume that rail companies also pay the business rates. Major
terminals for most forms of transport have some kind of security force
with varying amounts of police power. Rail is probably unusual in
also providing a security presence on the right of way.

Operational railway land is not subject to rates.

Ah HA! A hidden subsidy.
--
Roland Perry

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:27:55 +0100, Pyromancer wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

[...]
If those caught doing anti-social things were quickly and painfully
punished, *and* if detection rates were improved so that said thugs knew
they would eventually get caught and dealt with (this being the
difficult and expensive bit that most Daily Wail types forget about),
then I believe we would see a change.

You don't need the pain. You just need to catch the buggers and punish
them - embarrassing the Hell out of them by splashing them all over
the paper the first time they're caught and convicted at an when they
are legally responsible will work.

Most of the problem nowadays is that people know they stand very
little chance of being caught, not the effectiveness of any punishment
when they do get prosecuted.


In any case, with the sort of anti-social hardcases you're thinking
of, the scars from the physical punishment would merely be worn as a
badge of honour. Not quite the effect you intend, methinks.
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

Demonstration of poor photography: http://www.rosspix.me.uk - updated with NL & LU pix
AD: http://www.merciacharters.co.uk for European charters occasionally gripped by me

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On Tue, 05 Sep 2006 01:34:44 +0100, I wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:
On Sun, 3 Sep 2006 00:27:55 +0100, Pyromancer wrote in
, seen in uk.railway:

[...]
If those caught doing anti-social things were quickly and painfully
punished, *and* if detection rates were improved so that said thugs knew
they would eventually get caught and dealt with (this being the
difficult and expensive bit that most Daily Wail types forget about),
then I believe we would see a change.

You don't need the pain. You just need to catch the buggers and punish
them - embarrassing the Hell out of them by splashing them all over
the paper the first time they're caught and convicted at an when they
are legally responsible will work.

Makes no sense, that, does it?

It should say...
"...the first time they're caught and convicted at an age when they
are legally responsible..."

Which makes more sense. To me, anyway.
--
Ross, in Lincoln, most likely being cynical or sarcastic, as ever.
Reply-to will bounce. Replace the junk-trap with my name to e-mail me.

Demonstration of poor photography: http://www.rosspix.me.uk - updated with NL & LU pix
AD: http://www.merciacharters.co.uk for European charters occasionally gripped by me

Tax rates in Britain on transport facilites Policing and form of transport was 2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

On Mon, 4 Sep 2006 17:26:11 +0100, Roland Perry
wrote:

In message , at
15:26:13 on Mon, 4 Sep 2006, Bigguy
remarked:
I assume that rail companies also pay the business rates. Major
terminals for most forms of transport have some kind of security force
with varying amounts of police power. Rail is probably unusual in
also providing a security presence on the right of way.

Operational railway land is not subject to rates.

Ah HA! A hidden subsidy.
ARe any of the following subject to rates?
1. Highway facilities.
2. Pipelines
3. Port facilities.
4. Waterways.
5. Air traffic control facilities.
6. Airports.

Tax rates in Britain on transport facilites Policing and form of transport was 2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

In message , at 01:32:13 on
Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Clark F Morris remarked:
Operational railway land is not subject to rates.

Ah HA! A hidden subsidy.
ARe any of the following subject to rates?
1. Highway facilities.
2. Pipelines
3. Port facilities.
4. Waterways.
5. Air traffic control facilities.
6. Airports.

Most are listed at:

http://www.voa.gov.uk/business_rates/RLI/Scats/scat.htm

But it doesn't show the level of rates applied to each of those special
categories.
--
Roland Perry

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"John Mara" wrote in message
...

I guess I was looking at it more from the policing side than the
prosecution side. Did British Rail have railway police? Do the new
private companies have their own police?


The British Transport Police, formed in 1825 (1), deal with railway related
crime.

(1) http://www.btp.police.uk/History%20S...ety%20Main.htm

As far a getting rid of graffiti goes, the New York City Transit Authority
got rid of graffiti by cleaning it up as soon as it happened. There were
graffiti cleaning crews at most terminals. I was once on a train which
had some fresh graffiti on one side. I was sitting in the first car so I
overheard the radio conversation between the train operator and the
dispatcher. We had to wait for the other terminal track to open up so
that the graffiti would be on the platform side where the cleaners could
get at it.

On London Underground, trains are normally sent to depot at the first
opportunity to have grafiiti removed, once reported. If it is wet of
offensive, the train is normally taken out of service and sent to depot for
cleaning immediately.

On the other hand, NYCTA has had no luck at dealing with window
scratching. I suppose replacing the window every time would be too
expensive. I wonder if the scratch repair products used on car
windshields would work.

Sacrificial plastic coatings are being used on refurbished District Line
trains to prevent the damage done by "Dutch etching".

Tax rates in Britain on transport facilites Policing and form of transport was 2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

In message , Roland Perry
writes
In message , at 01:32:13 on
Tue, 5 Sep 2006, Clark F Morris remarked:

Operational railway land is not subject to rates.

Ah HA! A hidden subsidy.
ARe any of the following subject to rates?
1. Highway facilities.
2. Pipelines
3. Port facilities.
4. Waterways.
5. Air traffic control facilities.
6. Airports.

Most are listed at:

http://www.voa.gov.uk/business_rates/RLI/Scats/scat.htm

But it doesn't show the level of rates applied to each of those special
categories.

But you can search by category at
http://ratinglists.voa.gov.uk/irl2k5/mainController?action=InitialiseApp&listYear=2000& lang=E

The 23 items listed, with a number since deleted, for cat 231, Railways
& tramways, seems rather short. Clearly some railway lands are more
operational than others.
--
Goalie of the Century

2 jailed for railway graffiti
 

"Brian Begg-Robertson" wrote in message
news:7E9Kg.3096
PRISON DOESN'T WORK.

Only when they let them out!

--
Ken Ward

"Society for the production of Maritime Reefs using MerseyRail 142's"
(For membership email... )
"Leave the Mobile Phone at home day Oct 25th 2006"