Fares changes for 2007
 

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 18:09:35 +0100, Arthur Figgis
] wrote:

The name of the langauge, in that langauge, is better eg
* English, Nederlands, Deutsch, tlhIngan Hol

That last one, I'd *love* to see...

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

Fares changes for 2007
 

In message , Graham J
writes
- Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster

How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives,
especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in
life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised?

How about encouraging young people to use, become confident with and
perhaps even enjoy using public transport rather than become accustomed
to always travelling everywhere in an inefficient congestion causing
car? It probably very fair given that all the young people (i.e.
students) concerned don't earn money! Some social justice.

The only problem is if those buses are already full (like the ones near
me are now in the rush hour); it does illustrate great demand for the
schemes though.


--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Fares changes for 2007
 

On 12 Sep 2006 03:51:03 -0700, "Neil Williams"
wrote:

James Farrar wrote:

Sure it is. There's posters all over the network comparing the cash
and Oyster PAYG fares.

There might be. But, if you've never heard of Oyster? Likely answer
is that you'll tune out.

There are endless posters and announcements. There are leaflets and
booklets in racks at all tube stations. There are thousands of "ticket
stops" across London that can handle Oyster.

I think I must be some sort of freak because I take a few minutes to
check out the transport and ticket options for anywhere that I am
visiting. I then try to understand - even through a poor understanding
of most European languages - where I might be able to buy the ticket
that looks like the best option. This is done via a combination of a
decent guide book and the Internet.

I can't speak Italian but I managed to get a 7 day ticket, when I
visited Rome last year, which I made a financial loss on but I had the
freedom of the public transport network. I certainly had no desire to
find a news stand or tobacco place every time I wanted to catch a bus -
crazy! In Berlin I got a 3 day card at the Airport and happily whizzed
here and there. None of these tickets were available via machines - I
had to find a human being to sell them to me.

I have held a HK Octopus Card for years despite only visiting maybe once
a year or so. Very easy process to get the card checked for value, taken
off the hotlist if it has been removed from use due to no journey
activity and then adding some value. I don't think it has ever taken
more than 3 minutes to do. Adding value while in HK has only been a
breeze and I cannot speak or read Chinese. Same in Singapore with
their electronic ticket - again no issue and no ticket machine. Same in
Paris with the Mobilis ticket.

Most of the above tickets are not the tourist offer - they are simply
what the locals would buy. If I had to come to London to visit I would
almost certainly get an Oyster card. I agree that the rules around PAYG
are fairly complex but they can be explained.

If the Mayor wants to go Oyster-only, fine, I have no issue with that.
There are, I believe, other cities where public transport is pre-paid
only, with no cash accepted at stations or on buses.

There are loads of them.

However, there
needs to be a simple, step-by-step set of instructions, and it needs to
be more accessible.

Well yes I agree but I think you would struggle to find equivalents of
what you are suggesting for most other cities in Europe or further
afield. What you go get is promotion of special Tourist tickets which
typically represent very poor value for money and are simply another
form of "rip off" that everyone is getting so irritated about with the
latest fare changes for 2007.

Everyone in this NG knows what Oyster is, how to get one, what it costs
etc, thus if anyone on this NG pays one of these rip-off fares they
have only themselves to blame. You cannot, however, apply this
argument to a non- or poor-English-speaking tourist, or visitor to
London who doesn't frequent big cities and their transport systems, who
would just go to the ticket machine and prod the likely looking button.

So I deserve special treatment when I wander aimlessly into a bus or
train station in Singapore, Japan, Hong Kong, Italy, Germany, the
Netherlands or France because I cannot deal with their respective
languages to any great level of competence and I'm not an expert on
their tickets?

Come on - there is a limit to what any of us can expect in terms of how
well we are treated when we arrive in a foreign land for all sorts of
issues. As English speakers we are really spoilt rotten as so many
systems have some level of English signage and publicity. While it is
good that countries make an effort to accommodate visitors it is also
true that visitors should be prepared to make a bit of effort as well -
it's why I always try to learn and speak some of the local language.
People appreciate the fact that you make an effort.

TfL are going to retail Oyster abroad to aid the tourist market so I
think the concerns have been heard. It will be interesting to see what
approach they take.

You also can't apply this to purchasers of out-boundary through
tickets on LUL and cross-London tickets, which I believe are also
indirectly being hit by these punitive fares.

Now here I would agree with you if it is the case that the LU cash fares
are being used for summation purposes. They traditionally were but I
would find it somewhat extraordinary if £3 is being added each way for
cross London transfer purposes.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fares changes for 2007
 

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:53:56 +0100, asdf
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:17 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

- TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way
for an easy PAYG rollout

This point seems to be the most intruiging, and the biggest shake-up.
It seems that the same fares will apply across all TOCs. I suppose
this means that fares on some routes will go up and on other routes
will go down. What will happen to CDRs and Railcard discounts? Will
the changes spread outside the zones, or could it be cheaper to buy a
return from the first station outside the zones if travelling from
Zone 6 to Zone 1? How will fares from NR to Tube stations be
calculated? What about if the NR journey starts outside the zones?

I printed off the 2007 fares guide at work so I'll stick a post up
tomorrow about what the tube-train fares are. I don't have enough info
to answer most of your questions but the numbers might help explain
things a bit.

No mention of the PAYG trials on Southern, either - has that fallen by
the wayside?

Not heard anything on this. The Victoria - Balham trial was scheduled
for last January so something must have gone horribly wrong about the
proposal for it to be this late. I imagine data capture and transfer
between systems will be part of the problem.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fares changes for 2007
 

MIG wrote:
Graham J wrote:
Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except:
-- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00)

Ouch, 25% fare increase.

Cash fares go up significantly:
-- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!)
-- bus singles from £1.50 to £2
-- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards

Surely it is about time they announced a date when cash fares will be
abolished, at least for buses, so at least the punitive increases would make
more sense.

- Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster

How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives,
especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in
life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised?

It is bad enough that school kids bundle onto buses for a two or three stop
journey instead of a five minute walk, preventing other passengers boarding,
but free fares encourages them to bundle on the rear doors as well. If they
wish to encourage the use of public transport by children then fine, but how
about limiting it to evenings, weekends and school holidays instead so it is
encouraging leisure use?

- £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not
touch in and out (from November this year)

Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are
supposed to touch in and out. For example at Farringdon the correct
procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to
National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on
the other. All the signs do is tell PAYG users to touch the validators, not
under what circumstances and whether they need to look for one.



It is absolutely immoral to introduce even the £3 penalty fare, let
alone £4, before the means of avoiding it are fully available.

If you have a period paper travelcard from NR, plus a bit of PAYG on
your Oyster for when you go beyond your Underground zones, you can't
touch in or out without leaving the train, going up the escalator,
touching in/out, going back down and waiting for another train. A £3
fine for finding that ludicrously inconvenient is not justifiable.

Given that trains generally know where they are now, why not have
readers in trains, as in buses, that you can touch as you leave your
paper travelcard zone?

No one on pure PAYG would be able to get away with touching it as they
saw the inspector coming, because they'd have had to get into a station
somehow. People who used Oyster to get in would already have touched
at the gate. People with paper travelcards would have to touch in the
train at some point or else get caught by the gates when leaving their
destination station.

The only issue then is the range of possible extension fares (ie any
benefit to touching just before getting off), but I think that the
range of possible fares is limited, since it would be either Zone 1 or
non-Zone 1.


And an even more bleedin obvious solution would be to offer £1
extension tickets to people who can show a paper travelcard purchased
from NR.

Fares changes for 2007
 

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:19:36 +0100, Ian Jelf wrote:

Now to the down side of all this. It is difficult, VERY difficult to
explain PAYG and Oyster to causal visitors. Paper Travelcards and the
savings from them are no problem and people usually have something
similar "at home". But the concept of stored value tickets and
specifically daily capping is so alien to people as to be not worthwhile
mentioning.

I said in a posting last year that people are remarkably ill-at-ease
using public transport in London sometimes. We a few weeks ago I had a
large group of people from the North of England who, during their time
with me had effectively a full day to explore London. They were
staying in Zone 1 and - almost as an experiment - I tried a simplified
explanation of Oyster PAYG on the way down. I really wished I hadn't.
Confusion reigned supreme and most of them simply couldn't get their
heads around it all. The more I tried to explain it, the worse it became
as they muddled up period Travelcards, paper Travelcards, the GBP3
deposit and daily capping. All this to save people 50p. I don't
think I'll do it again; I'll just send people off to buy a paper
Travelcard and save myself the ulcer! :-) (My coach driver thought I
was mad to have tried and maybe he was right.)

A simplification that you can get away with if you're sure they're not
going to need NR within the zones, is as follows:

- Tube and bus are the only modes of transport that matter. NR is
something big and scary and they probably shouldn't go near it. And
Oysters definitely aren't valid there, ever.
- Oysters are PAYG only. (If they need a season, get them to get a
paper one.)
- ODTCs are day passes for Tube and bus. Capping is the same thing as
having an ODTC on your Oyster. (I'll probably get shot for saying that
here, but it does seem to make capping much easier to understand.)
Just don't forget to tell them they need to keep touching in and out
even after reaching the cap.

Unresolved journeys are a pain to explain. You could skip it, but if
they get one on their card, ticket offices won't refund the £3
deposit.

Having said all that, I still can't blame you if you just forget it.
Getting them to just stick to 1 or 7 day Travelcards is much simpler,
and unlikely to cost them a huge amount more. Besides, it's a small
price to pay for your sanity...

Fares changes for 2007
 

Phil Richards wrote:

The information is there in printed format at tube stations and the
(few) travel information desks scattered across the capital. I think
you'll find plenty of information on how much it costs with Oyster vs
cash albeit not spelled out in different languages.

It's there, just about - but there could really do with being a big
poster by the ticket machines telling people not to use them! (Or just
do away with the rip-off - or do away with the ticket machines and
replace them with some kind of Oyster machines!)

Yes, some will research on the WWW, and it's right that it should be
there (and yes, it should be in as many languages as possible). But
many won't.

Of course one still
needs to get their head around the maze of zones etc, which of course
have been around much longer than Oyster and of course are the backbone
of most other public transport systems in large cities.

This is true - particularly in .nl where you need to work out how many
zones you're travelling through in order to stamp your Strippenkaart
correctly. Notably, there's one major "blip" in this otherwise
sensible system - and that's that precisely none of the official
national information - anywhere, including on the WWW - is in any
language other than Dutch. (Fortunately I can read it, but it is a bit
poor).

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

Ian Jelf wrote:

Secondly, I applaud the current TfL policy of vigorously promoting
Oyster use by making big differences between on vehicle or at station
cash fares and those you can get from Oyster. A lot of other
organisations would pussy-foot around giving 10% savings or something.
TfL, or Ken if you like, has decided to go the whole hog with this and
make a BIG distinction. Again, I reckon its good in principle.

Good in principle, were it a discount. But a gbp4 minimum single (and
that's effectively what it is, as most tourists will travel involving
zone 1) is a rip-off, pure and simple. The taxi fare would be cheaper
for a good number of shorter journeys, or certainly not a lot more.

If Ken really had guts he wouldn't do that (and openly admit to
dragging in more cash by ripping off tourists). He'd get the right
infrastructure in place, and then, and *only* then, remove paper
ticketing completely.

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

Earl Purple wrote:

maybe so the rest of us are not stuck on the bus waiting while your mum
goes through all the options with the bus driver about where she is
going and what ticket she should get?

The ticketing system should be simple enough that *nobody* needs to do
that. Oyster is a good way in which that could be implemented, if done
carefully.

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

There are endless posters and announcements. There are leaflets and
booklets in racks at all tube stations. There are thousands of "ticket
stops" across London that can handle Oyster.

*But if you haven't been to London before*? You wouldn't know that.

I think I must be some sort of freak because I take a few minutes to
check out the transport and ticket options for anywhere that I am
visiting. I then try to understand - even through a poor understanding
of most European languages - where I might be able to buy the ticket
that looks like the best option. This is done via a combination of a
decent guide book and the Internet.

You do. I do. But then we are clued up about transport, and we both
read and post to a newsgroup that discusses it in depth. Most people
mainly travel by car, or by local bus on which they just buy single
fares, or maybe a weekly. It is *not* obvious to them that London
would be any different.

Come on - there is a limit to what any of us can expect in terms of how
well we are treated when we arrive in a foreign land for all sorts of
issues.

Agreed. However, it is not reasonable to rip people off in the way the
gbp4 single fare does. Even the tourist cards of which you speak
aren't, IMX, as ridiculous.

TfL are going to retail Oyster abroad to aid the tourist market so I
think the concerns have been heard. It will be interesting to see what
approach they take.

Indeed.

Now here I would agree with you if it is the case that the LU cash fares
are being used for summation purposes. They traditionally were but I
would find it somewhat extraordinary if £3 is being added each way for
cross London transfer purposes.

ISTR it still is, but I'll check again when I buy one on Monday (going
to City Airport). They have been replaced by outboundary Peak
Travelcards for most return buyers, but that's no good if you just want
a single (which a lot of people do).

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

Paul G wrote:

How about encouraging young people to use, become confident with and
perhaps even enjoy using public transport rather than become accustomed
to always travelling everywhere in an inefficient congestion causing
car? It probably very fair given that all the young people (i.e.
students) concerned don't earn money! Some social justice.

What happened to parents paying their childrens' way, then? Or, in
teenagers' cases, a paper round or Saturday job?

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

Dave Arquati wrote:

Bob Wood wrote:
Kev wrote:

I am absolutely staggered by this increase. Last year it double from
£1.40 to £3, now it is going to £4. A 167% increase in a little over
a year. A little over 10 years ago it was £1, so 400% in just over 10
years.

£1.40 to £4.00 is a rise of 185%, not 167%

£1.00 to £4.00 is a rise of 300%, not 400%.

I don't recall it being £1.40 - last year it was £2.00 cash AFAIK. In
real terms these rises will be somewhat less; certainly on buses, fares
have barely risen at all in real terms over the last six years.

My memory is that three or four years ago, the single bus fare in Epsom
& Ewell was 70p. Thanks to the corrupt Labour government giving Mr
Livingstone powers of taxation without representation, he's now made it
£4. Note that Mr Livingstone has not made any way of topping up an
Oyster card available at any location more than 100yds in from the
boundary with the Royal Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames.

Seeing as Oyster isn't valid on the K9 and K10 (and these routes have
sensible distance-based fares still), it would be very easy to extend
the same principle to the 406, 418, and 467. With a little re-routing,
the 293 and 470 could receive similar treatment.

James.

Fares changes for 2007
 

What's wrong with this explanation for tourists:

An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates
with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have
to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you
to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty
on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel
around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine.

I wouldn't go into zones, peak/off peak and the slight bit of money
they might save using other kinds of tickets.

Fares changes for 2007
 

How about encouraging young people to use, become confident with and
perhaps even enjoy using public transport rather than become accustomed
to always travelling everywhere in an inefficient congestion causing
car? It probably very fair given that all the young people (i.e.
students) concerned don't earn money! Some social justice.

What happened to parents paying their childrens' way, then? Or, in
teenagers' cases, a paper round or Saturday job?

Not everyone in London is middle class. By providing the travel concession
as a universal benefit, children from disadvantaged backgrounds get to
travel free without the stigma of receiving a targeted or means tested
benefit. There are other positive externalities to getting young people used
to using public transport on a regular basis which include the environmental
impact.

Fares changes for 2007
 

Barry Salter wrote:

I spent a week in Nuernberg last month and whilst the information
provision is somewhat better, in that the Journey Planner tells you what
zones you need for a given journey, and the machines are multilingual,
the multimodal ticketing isn't really explained all that well, so
chances are that people who aren't used to how it works (i.e. buy a
Single ticket and it's valid on all modes necessary to reach your
destination) probably end up buying multiple tickets for their journey.

Same with the Strippenkaart. It does say 'overstappen is toegestaan',
but someone who doesn't read Dutch wouldn't know what that meant, and
I've not found it anywhere else in any other language.

There's the other "curiosity" of the Strippenkaart in that it gives you
a specified amount of time to make your journey which isn't always
enough if there are a lot of changes; this is based on the number of
strips stamped. If you think this will be the case (rare, but
possible, it nearly happened to me one evening when waiting for a
connection took a while) it is advantageous to stamp more strips in the
first place, as if you go over you need to stamp again from scratch.
This *isn't* explained anywhere.

Same applies for validation. Not wanting to risk a Penalty Fare, we
validated every ticket we bought, whether it was a Single or a Day
Ticket.

I always work on the basis that it won't do any harm if there's space
for it on the ticket. Usually, I believe, you do need to stamp
everything, but some ticket machines do it for you.

But, yes, it's not explained well enough.

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

sweek wrote:

An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates
with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have
to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you
to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty
on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel
around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine.

This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you
may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket
machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4
quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages.

Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it sold
from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for
ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid the
ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the
invariably long queue).

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

Seriously? I always just change over without touching any readers at
all, just like changing between Tube lines, and it works fine.

I specifically queried it because the Oyster blurb does talk about touching
out and in when changing from one mode of transport to another and the tube
and National Rail are most definitely two different modes. In that case it
does make sense to have an exit and an entry and use both validators.

To my mind your approach makes more sense though. One entry and one exit
seems right to me.

Fares changes for 2007
 

How about encouraging young people to use, become confident with and
perhaps even enjoy using public transport rather than become accustomed to
always travelling everywhere in an inefficient congestion causing car?

Which is why I went on to suggest that incentives could be available in the
evenings, at weekends and in school holidays (off-peak) if such incentives
are required.

Fares changes for 2007
 

Ian Jelf wrote:

Right, as someone who's a regular here and obviously has a lot of
experience (and a vested interest) in London as a tourist destination,
I'll wade in. (SNIP)

An excellent post that summarises things pretty much perfectly.

I have an idea of my to make things easier for tourists;

Firstly, it's possible, or was possible, to get special rate tickets
for tourists, purchased in advance before travelling to the UK. These
could be a pre-paid Oyster with a one/two/three day Travelcard - or
whatever - that starts the first time it's swiped. TfL is prepaid, and
gets the money even if said tourist doesn't actually use it everyday.

Secondly, hotels, travel information points and airports could sell
pre-paid Oyster cards in £10, £20, £30 denominations etc (all of
which can be topped up). These would either work as PAYG tickets when
used - or ideally work as a ODTC that activates as soon as you make
your first trip. Make it simple and have it as a Z1-6 card only -
encouraging people to travel beyond Zone 1/2 and see the sights and not
have to worry about all of the (current and hopefully soon fixed)
issues with touching in/out when changing services. An Oyster
travelcard would then work fine on National Rail services too without
any issue. As you said, the capping system is too complicated and
clever for its own good and most people don't need that hassle if
they're only here for a few days or a week.

When I was in Hong Kong nearly 10 years ago, I kept my ticket as a
souvenir and if people have a ticket that still has some credit, they
will probably keep it for their next visit. Some might throw it away,
but most companies with some sort of ticket/credit system are clever
enough to make sure you can't actually use up all of the remaining
value (Hong Kong excepted - the last journey is whatever you have left
on the card). Whatever happens, it's money up front for TfL and
producing an Oyster card can't be that expensive these days. If you're
selling in different denomations, take an amount off for the card; e.g.
£10 for £9.50 credit, £20 for £19.50 credit. Bung some nice images
on the card and make them collectable at the same time!

The current PAYG system is fine, but tourists want simplicity and a
ticket that works anywhere without any hassle (the prepacked card
should also have a pocket guide that includes details on how to use it
- in multiple languages and maybe a map). Like a Travelcard, it's
possible some people will not take full advantage of the ticket - but
simplicity is better than planning your day in advance (which as a
tourist isn't always easy) or trying to understand price capping.

Once you have this, you can then charge a massive premium on paper
tickets and use the money from that to fund the cost of introducing
this 'third' type of Oyster card. No doubt many people coming to London
from the rest of the UK would use them too (buying them in advance at
their local station/shop).

Jonathan

Fares changes for 2007
 

Neil Williams wrote:
sweek wrote:

An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates
with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have
to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you
to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty
on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel
around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine.

This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you
may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket
machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4
quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages.

Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it sold
from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for
ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid the
ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the
invariably long queue).

Neil
No I wasn't being ironic. Just trying to keep it very simple, and
ignore the things that probably won't affect tourists in the first
place. I was just thinking that something about getting to Heathrow and
Camden Town costing more should be in there, since those are the only
tourist destination outside of zone 1 that I think people might go to.
If you're a tourist in a place you don't know I think you're actually
way more likely to go to the ticket counter anyway, but yes, machines
that show you everything clearly would be nice.

Most tourists probably speak a little bit of English, but Spanish,
Japanese, Chinese and French would probably be very very useful
languages to add to ticket machines. And a few more, really.

Fares changes for 2007
 

On 13 Sep 2006 01:33:19 -0700, "James" wrote:


My memory is that three or four years ago, the single bus fare in Epsom
& Ewell was 70p. Thanks to the corrupt Labour government giving Mr
Livingstone powers of taxation without representation, he's now made it
£4.

Err no he hasn't. A single fare is £1.50 in cash. I fail to see how
you can possibly get to £4 - even with the 2007 fares for a *single*
fare.

Note that Mr Livingstone has not made any way of topping up an
Oyster card available at any location more than 100yds in from the
boundary with the Royal Borough of Kingston-upon-Thames.

Mr Livingstone and his transport authority don't have jurisdiction
beyond the boundary. They also cannot force newsagents to become ticket
stops nor can they force TOCs to convert their ticket machines. This is
a commercial arrangement and there must be limits on how far public
funds are used.

You could quite easily get an Oyster card set for auto top on bus and
then you would never need to seek out an agent or station.

Seeing as Oyster isn't valid on the K9 and K10 (and these routes have
sensible distance-based fares still), it would be very easy to extend
the same principle to the 406, 418, and 467. With a little re-routing,
the 293 and 470 could receive similar treatment.

The K9 and K10 have been replaced by Epsom Buses anyway and don't run to
Kingston. I note you are quite happy to suggest that you keep the TfL
provided bus services but want to pay lower fares for them. Perhaps the
alternative would be that they are all withdrawn by TfL - why should
they provide much higher quality services to Surrey when Surrey County
Council consistently cuts back its bus network at every opportunity? At
least then the cross boundary service provision would be the same in
Surrey as it is for Herts, Bucks, Essex and Kent - i.e. non existent.

You don't know when you are well off.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fares changes for 2007
 

On 13 Sep 2006 00:12:20 -0700, "Neil Williams"
wrote:


You do. I do. But then we are clued up about transport, and we both
read and post to a newsgroup that discusses it in depth. Most people
mainly travel by car, or by local bus on which they just buy single
fares, or maybe a weekly. It is *not* obvious to them that London
would be any different.

That is the key. "Everyone" in Britain knows you buy bus tickets from
the driver. When visiting London you get a day travelcard, except you
can't on Oyster, so bang goes that idea.

PAYG just shouts complex - look how people here describe troubles
getting through places like London Bridge with it.

....

Come on - there is a limit to what any of us can expect in terms of how
well we are treated when we arrive in a foreign land for all sorts of
issues.

Agreed. However, it is not reasonable to rip people off in the way the
gbp4 single fare does. Even the tourist cards of which you speak
aren't, IMX, as ridiculous.

I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk
would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding
tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew
what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of
ticket machine, but it was OOU.

--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

Fares changes for 2007
 

wrote:
Yet still the most popular with visitors...!

It's not like they have a choice :-)

Well true... but I was actually referring to the recent survey which
seemed to conclude that although London's transport system was
considered the most expensive among major cities, it was also the most
popular amongst them.

--
Dave Arquati
www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London

Fares changes for 2007
 

In message , Paul Corfield
writes
I think I must be some sort of freak because I take a few minutes to
check out the transport and ticket options for anywhere that I am
visiting. I then try to understand - even through a poor understanding
of most European languages - where I might be able to buy the ticket
that looks like the best option. This is done via a combination of a
decent guide book and the Internet.

I can't speak Italian but I managed to get a 7 day ticket, when I
visited Rome last year, which I made a financial loss on but I had the
freedom of the public transport network. I certainly had no desire to
find a news stand or tobacco place every time I wanted to catch a bus -
crazy! In Berlin I got a 3 day card at the Airport and happily whizzed
here and there. None of these tickets were available via machines - I
had to find a human being to sell them to me.

I don't think that's strange at all, Paul. I do it all the time myself
when I visit Germany (which is getting to be a rather regular
occurrence).

I'm happy to get a period pass that covers everything even though it may
be a bit more expensive - saves all that hassle trying to speak foreign
if you get 'gripped'.
--
Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building.
You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK
(please use the reply to address for email)

Fares changes for 2007
 

In message om, Neil
Williams writes
Paul G wrote:

How about encouraging young people to use, become confident with and
perhaps even enjoy using public transport rather than become accustomed
to always travelling everywhere in an inefficient congestion causing
car? It probably very fair given that all the young people (i.e.
students) concerned don't earn money! Some social justice.

What happened to parents paying their childrens' way, then?
Dunno :) Taxes went up? :) Or didn't go up enough? [or both]



Or, in
teenagers' cases, a paper round or Saturday job?
I'd be quite surprised if there were enough newspaper rounds to pay for
all 11-16 years old to provide themselves with enough bus fares.

--
Paul G
Typing from Barking

Fares changes for 2007
 

On 12 Sep 2006 09:14:29 -0700, "
wrote:

Well, at least transport in London is still THE MOST!

THE MOST expensive in Europe

and

THE MOST outdated in Europe

:-S

You clearly haven't been to many European cities then.

Fares changes for 2007
 

On 11 Sep 2006 23:54:45 -0700, "Neil Williams"
wrote:

Dave Arquati wrote:

-- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!)
-- bus singles from £1.50 to £2

Now that really is taking the ****. Why don't they just abolish cash
fares if that's what they want to do? It's nothing but an underhand
and dishonest tourist tax.

It's only a tax on stupid tourists. Anyone visiting a different city,
especially those from overseas where English is not their first
language, is likely to bring with them a guide book or do some
internet research before they set off. I certainly always do, and that
research always includes checking out the public transport options and
fares in my destination city.

If there really are any tourists that just turn up somewhere where
they don't speak the language without the sense to read the key points
of a guidebook / leaflet / inflight magazine and check for basics like
how to travel around the place, I'm fine with them paying a bit extra.

You also ignore the fact that typically newly arrived tourists come
with a huge pile of large denomination notes or travellers cheques.
Quite how you expect them to fit those into Oyster machines is beyond
me. Do you see what I'm saying? The people you're bleating about are
*extremely* likely to go to a tube station ticket office (e.g. the one
at Heathrow, Gatwick or a major train station) first because it's
probably the only place they can spend the large notes they've got
anyway.

Fares changes for 2007
 

On 12 Sep 2006 09:29:06 -0700, "Neil Williams"
wrote:

Remember that barriers are, in
the first place, foreign to much of Europe, let alone further afield.


??? No they're not. Paris, Stockholm, Budapest, New York, Sydney,
Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok- the metro systems in these and many
many other cities - in fact I'd go so far as to say most cities of the
world - have barriers.

I'd put money on very few foreign travellers managing to get to London
without ever having seen a barrier on a metro system.

Fares changes for 2007
 

Arthur Figgis wrote:

I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk
would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding
tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew
what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of
ticket machine, but it was OOU.

At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy
an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was
helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals. I've
no idea whether or not this is still the case.

--

Stephen

Poems. Always a sign of pretentious inner turmoil.

Fares changes for 2007
 

Kev wrote:
Yes, great if you have Oyster. Why don't they just put signs up at
Heathrow and on the boundary of London saying **** off if you are a low
life visitor we don't want you in London.

This recent visitor has not one but /two/ Oysters: one from Notting Hill
Gate last summer, one from Heathrow T123 this summer.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Fares changes for 2007
 

Neil Williams wrote:
There's the other "curiosity" of the Strippenkaart in that it gives you
a specified amount of time to make your journey which isn't always
enough if there are a lot of changes; this is based on the number of
strips stamped. If you think this will be the case (rare, but
possible, it nearly happened to me one evening when waiting for a
connection took a while) it is advantageous to stamp more strips in the
first place, as if you go over you need to stamp again from scratch.
This *isn't* explained anywhere.

But Oyster has the same problem! If you spend too long riding around,
it assumes you've walked off without touching out. Then when you /do/
touch out, it assumes you forgot to touch in. And you end up with two
unresolved journeys. And, as of November, two £8 penalties.

I always work on the basis that it won't do any harm if there's space
for it on the ticket. Usually, I believe, you do need to stamp
everything, but some ticket machines do it for you.

If you ever ride the River LINE (yes, that's really how it's spelled) in
southern New Jersey (USA), be careful! I once watched an ticket
inspector fine a poor passenger THREE times because, to kill time while
waiting for the train, he punched his ticket four times (in four
different locations). When the inspector asked the passenger to
present ID, he presented a college ID card -- and this happens to have
been during a promotion that allowed college students to ride any
NJTransit services for free just by showing a valid college ID. In the
end, the inspector let him go with a warning.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Fares changes for 2007
 

Stephen Farrow wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:

I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk
would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding
tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew
what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of
ticket machine, but it was OOU.

At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy
an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was
helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals. I've
no idea whether or not this is still the case.

When was this? I doubt it's still the case, although I don't know for sure.

But ever since the price jumped from $4 to $7, the Fun Pass has been an
incredibly bad deal for nearly everyone. What most people want is a $10
pay-per-ride MetroCard; longer-term tourists might opt for a $24 7-day
unlimited MetroCard.

Unfortunately, the online MetroCard sales outlet through CitySearch shut
down in 2001 and has yet to be replaced, so tourists can't buy
MetroCards before leaving home.

It's a problem. Cash fares are accepted on buses (coins only, and no
change is provided), but the free bus-subway transfer is only available
with MetroCard, and most people who ride the bus from LGA need to
transfer to the subway. (LGA does not have direct subway service.)
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Fares changes for 2007
 

David of Broadway wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:

I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk
would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding
tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew
what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of
ticket machine, but it was OOU.

At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy
an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was
helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals.
I've no idea whether or not this is still the case.

When was this? I doubt it's still the case, although I don't know for
sure.

About three years ago.


But ever since the price jumped from $4 to $7, the Fun Pass has been an
incredibly bad deal for nearly everyone. What most people want is a $10
pay-per-ride MetroCard; longer-term tourists might opt for a $24 7-day
unlimited MetroCard.

Which is what I've done every time since. That trip, though, I needed a
one-day pass - I was arriving in the morning (from Toronto), meeting a
friend in Midtown, heading over to Lincoln Center to do some research at
the Performing Arts Library, then heading to Penn Station in the evening
to catch a train out to Hofstra University, where I was going to a
conference. And, of course, I arrived without exact change for the bus,
and a cab to Manhattan was beyond my graduate student budget. It was
only by asking around in the terminal that I got directed to the one
newsstand that sold the Fun Pass.

Unfortunately, the online MetroCard sales outlet through CitySearch shut
down in 2001 and has yet to be replaced, so tourists can't buy
MetroCards before leaving home.

It's a problem. Cash fares are accepted on buses (coins only, and no
change is provided), but the free bus-subway transfer is only available
with MetroCard, and most people who ride the bus from LGA need to
transfer to the subway. (LGA does not have direct subway service.)

Mind you, Toronto airport isn't really any better. There's the very
overpriced Pacific Western bus downtown, which is fairly easy to find
from the arrivals level of each terminal. There's a very good TTC bus
service to the subway, but you need exact change or metropass or a
token, and as far as I know none of the newsstands in any of the three
terminals sell tokens or tickets (or TTC day passes, which are also
valid), despite the fact that convenience stores all over the city are
set up to sell TTC tickets and passes.

--

Stephen

I know all the games... pin the thing on the thing... pass the thing...

Fares changes for 2007
 

David of Broadway wrote:

If you ever ride the River LINE (yes, that's really how it's spelled) in
southern New Jersey (USA), be careful! I once watched an ticket
inspector fine a poor passenger THREE times because, to kill time while
waiting for the train, he punched his ticket four times (in four
different locations).

Sounds like he was an idiot - surely you can't travel more than once
with one invalid ticket?

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

Peter Frimberley wrote:

It's only a tax on stupid tourists. Anyone visiting a different city,
especially those from overseas where English is not their first
language, is likely to bring with them a guide book or do some
internet research before they set off. I certainly always do, and that
research always includes checking out the public transport options and
fares in my destination city.

I reiterate my previous statement - you, like other readers of this NG,
are clued up on transport and travel. Not every tourist/visitor is -
and nor will they necessarily take a guidebook.

You also ignore the fact that typically newly arrived tourists come
with a huge pile of large denomination notes or travellers cheques.

Or credit/debit cards?

Quite how you expect them to fit those into Oyster machines is beyond
me.

I would expect a machine selling tickets costing gbp10 to accept gbp10
notes, and maybe even gbp20 ones. I don't know, but I wouldn't
consider it likely that many are turning up with wads of gbp50 notes -
though I may be wrong...

Neil

Fares changes for 2007
 

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:43:04 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:53:56 +0100, asdf
wrote:

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:17 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:

- TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way
for an easy PAYG rollout

This point seems to be the most intruiging, and the biggest shake-up.
It seems that the same fares will apply across all TOCs. I suppose
this means that fares on some routes will go up and on other routes
will go down. What will happen to CDRs and Railcard discounts? Will
the changes spread outside the zones, or could it be cheaper to buy a
return from the first station outside the zones if travelling from
Zone 6 to Zone 1? How will fares from NR to Tube stations be
calculated? What about if the NR journey starts outside the zones?

I printed off the 2007 fares guide at work so I'll stick a post up
tomorrow about what the tube-train fares are. I don't have enough info
to answer most of your questions but the numbers might help explain
things a bit.

I said I would post something on the train-tube fares so here goes.

The new train-tube fares are as follows
Fares including zone 1
Adult Child
Peak Off Peak Peak Off Peak
Single Return Return Single Return Return
1 zone 400 - - 200 - -
2 zones 410 660* 510* 200 330* 200*
3 zones 470 780* 570* 230 390* 200*
4 zones 510 900* 570* 250 450* 200*
5 zones 580 1120* 670* 290 560* 200*
6 zones 680 1320* 670* 340 660* 200*

Fares not including Z1

1 zone 300 560 460* 150 280 200*
2 zones 340 630 460* 170 310 200*
3 zones 380 700 460* 190 350 200*
4 zones 420 770 460* 210 390 200*
5 zones 460 800* 460* 230 400* 200*

* the appropriate peak / off peak day travelcard is issued instead.

There is nothing mentioned about NR services adopting zonal fares in the
staff briefing document. I imagine that might be because the NR Fares
Offices are still working out what will apply when and how.

I imagine a certain Mr Doe will be kept very busy looking at the ins and
outs of this issue.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

Fares changes for 2007
 

Paul Corfield wrote:

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 00:43:04 +0100, Paul Corfield
wrote:


On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 15:53:56 +0100, asdf
wrote:


On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:17 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:


- TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way
for an easy PAYG rollout

This point seems to be the most intruiging, and the biggest shake-up.
It seems that the same fares will apply across all TOCs. I suppose
this means that fares on some routes will go up and on other routes
will go down. What will happen to CDRs and Railcard discounts? Will
the changes spread outside the zones, or could it be cheaper to buy a
return from the first station outside the zones if travelling from
Zone 6 to Zone 1? How will fares from NR to Tube stations be
calculated? What about if the NR journey starts outside the zones?

We will definitely see very strange pricing in that case. It is
extremely difficult to avoid that around boundarys between zonal-fare
areas and distance based fare areas. I live in Sweden and when
travelling by rail across the country here it is in many cases cheaper
to add a short extra journey into the next county to the rail ticket if
travelling to a place near a county border and things like that. Maybe
we will see that in Grater London too in the future.

I printed off the 2007 fares guide at work so I'll stick a post up
tomorrow about what the tube-train fares are. I don't have enough info
to answer most of your questions but the numbers might help explain
things a bit.


I said I would post something on the train-tube fares so here goes.

The new train-tube fares are as follows
Fares including zone 1
Adult Child
Peak Off Peak Peak Off Peak
Single Return Return Single Return Return
1 zone 400 - - 200 - -
2 zones 410 660* 510* 200 330* 200*
3 zones 470 780* 570* 230 390* 200*
4 zones 510 900* 570* 250 450* 200*
5 zones 580 1120* 670* 290 560* 200*
6 zones 680 1320* 670* 340 660* 200*

I don't quite get this... A single 6 zones from/to/through Z1 will be
6.80 and an off-peak day travelcard for Z 1-6 will be 6.70. Ok, hope
they will not sell singles at off-peak time then if a day travelcard
would be 10p cheaper... Or am I missing something here?

--
Olof Lagerkvist
ICQ: 724451
Web: http://here.is/olof

Fares changes for 2007
 

- £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not
touch in and out (from November this year)


This is the one that worries me, and is really steep IMO.

It also means that when one is forced to leave through another exit because
of overcrowding, such as happened to me when I went to Surrey Quays to
watch the London Marathon and we were made to go through another non-gated
exit, it means filling in a bloody form (and no doubt waiting a couple of
weeks for the refund). A bit unfair, really.

Also, that's terribly sneaky to introduce that hike in November, when
people are not expecting changes. Could they not have waited a month? It'll
catch a lot of people out.

* * * * *

Incidentally what would happen to one guy who I saw last week, who arrived
in Plaistow station, went through the open baggage gates, forgot to touch
in, turned around and validated his PAYG by touching out on the normal
gates before resuming his journey. He clearly genuinely thought he was
doing the right thing, but I bet you he'd end up under the new rules with
£8 penalty charge for two unclosed journeys (two journeys without touch-
ins). Well, it would be capped, I guess, so not the full £8 - or does the
penalty charge not count towards the daily cap?

Or does the system acknowledge this happens sometimes?

* * * * *

Another question: if someone goes to Stratford and intends to go to
Liverpool Street on the overground, touches the PAYG thingy on Platform 5,
realises there's a problem with the train and changes his mind and goes on
the Central Line instead... what happens with that touch-in on Platform 5?
In the end, I was so worried about being charged for a rail journey I never
took (it was the only journey I was making that day, so it wouldn't have
been capped) that I stayed and waited 15 minutes for my train after
touching in, rather than get the Central (I'd have been there in 12
minutes!) Typically, there was no one around to ask and if I had, I
probably would have been met with utter cluelessness as per usual.

Fares changes for 2007
 

"Neil Williams" wrote in news:1158058651.396263.199770
@b28g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:

I don't think that's a problem, indeed it's probably a good thing on
environmental and waste terms to prevent people throwing the things on
the floor. Singapore even charges a deposit on its single tickets,
which are issued on an Oyster-like card.
SNIP

Yeah but in Singapore they're completely nuts - where only until recently
were you allowed to chew gum just in case you happened to throw the gum on
the floor recently!

I wouldn't use any Singapore regulation as any kind of benchmark!

Fares changes for 2007
 

On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 07:00:23 -0500, "Tristán White"
wrote:

- £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not
touch in and out (from November this year)


This is the one that worries me, and is really steep IMO.

It also means that when one is forced to leave through another exit because
of overcrowding, such as happened to me when I went to Surrey Quays to
watch the London Marathon and we were made to go through another non-gated
exit, it means filling in a bloody form (and no doubt waiting a couple of
weeks for the refund). A bit unfair, really.

I would have insisted on validating my card or else wanting to
understand that the system was set up to deal with an open exit - as was
done for Sloane Square during the Chelsea Flower Show when an ungated
exit has to be used.

Also, that's terribly sneaky to introduce that hike in November, when
people are not expecting changes. Could they not have waited a month? It'll
catch a lot of people out.

I think it is better to introduce it separately in advance of the fares
revision so people can become accustomed to the change. Doing it
alongside all the fares changes would create more confusion and
difficulty for passengers and staff.

* * * * *

Incidentally what would happen to one guy who I saw last week, who arrived
in Plaistow station, went through the open baggage gates, forgot to touch
in, turned around and validated his PAYG by touching out on the normal
gates before resuming his journey. He clearly genuinely thought he was
doing the right thing, but I bet you he'd end up under the new rules with
£8 penalty charge for two unclosed journeys (two journeys without touch-
ins). Well, it would be capped, I guess, so not the full £8 - or does the
penalty charge not count towards the daily cap?

I don't understand why this would trigger anything. Judging from your
description you are saying he leant over and touched his card on the
reader on the exit side of the gate - if so no problem.

Quite why he didn't just use the manual gate validator I do not know -
these work in both entry and exit mode depending on what your card says.
If your last transaction was an entry at a logical location and within a
logical time then the validator will assume you are exiting. It employs
the same logic to determine if you are entering.

If the chap placed his card on the entry gate reader then I accept that
would create an unresolved transaction as the card will not recognise an
exit transaction. Capping is voided by the presence of unresolved
transactions - hence the constant exhortations to always touch in and
out even if you have a travelcard because you might be making a PAYG
extension trip. If you have made several extension trips from PAYG
alongside a Travelcard ticket the cap could still be invoked but only if
the card can recognise all journeys as complete for the day in question.

Or does the system acknowledge this happens sometimes?

The system can only recognise unresolved journeys if a particular mode
has been activated on the gates - emergency exits is one such situation
as are planned events like the Chelsea Flower Show mentioned above. This
was something that had to be planned in to avoid the system being a
hindrance to safe operation when very large crowds have to be handled in
a different way to normal operation.

Another question: if someone goes to Stratford and intends to go to
Liverpool Street on the overground, touches the PAYG thingy on Platform 5,
realises there's a problem with the train and changes his mind and goes on
the Central Line instead... what happens with that touch-in on Platform 5?
In the end, I was so worried about being charged for a rail journey I never
took (it was the only journey I was making that day, so it wouldn't have
been capped) that I stayed and waited 15 minutes for my train after
touching in, rather than get the Central (I'd have been there in 12
minutes!) Typically, there was no one around to ask and if I had, I
probably would have been met with utter cluelessness as per usual.

You were registered as in the system. You could quite happily have
travelled by Central Line and the exit gate anywhere on the system
(except Stratford) would have made the appropriate fare deduction. You
are not restricted to next going through the gates at Liverpool St
mainline.
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!