|
Fares changes for 2007
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 14:53:52 +0100, Paul Corfield wrote:
It also means that when one is forced to leave through another exit because of overcrowding, such as happened to me when I went to Surrey Quays to watch the London Marathon and we were made to go through another non-gated exit, it means filling in a bloody form (and no doubt waiting a couple of weeks for the refund). A bit unfair, really. I would have insisted on validating my card or else wanting to understand that the system was set up to deal with an open exit - as was done for Sloane Square during the Chelsea Flower Show when an ungated exit has to be used. Are you saying that the system treated all unresolved journeys at the time of the Chelsea Flower Show as being journeys to Sloane Square? If so, how did it update the balance on the card? * * * * * Incidentally what would happen to one guy who I saw last week, who arrived in Plaistow station, went through the open baggage gates, forgot to touch in, turned around and validated his PAYG by touching out on the normal gates before resuming his journey. He clearly genuinely thought he was doing the right thing, but I bet you he'd end up under the new rules with £8 penalty charge for two unclosed journeys (two journeys without touch- ins). Well, it would be capped, I guess, so not the full £8 - or does the penalty charge not count towards the daily cap? I don't understand why this would trigger anything. Judging from your description you are saying he leant over and touched his card on the reader on the exit side of the gate - if so no problem. I think you've misunderstood - the man in question had entered the station from the street and was just starting his journey. |
Fares changes for 2007
You clearly haven't been to many European cities then. Well, I think I've seen quite a lot. Then again, before London I lived in Germany, and probably comparing everything mostly to German public transport (which I believe is very good). I understand of course that Tube is victim of its age and can't do much about it... |
Fares changes for 2007
|
Fares changes for 2007
On Thu, 14 Sep 2006 10:48:02 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote: I don't quite get this... A single 6 zones from/to/through Z1 will be 6.80 and an off-peak day travelcard for Z 1-6 will be 6.70. Ok, hope they will not sell singles at off-peak time then if a day travelcard would be 10p cheaper... Or am I missing something here? No, that sounds reasonable. After 0930 you'd be sold the Travelcard instead. What bothers me is that I don't see the point unless National Rail and Underground fares are to be fully integrated - why should it matter which system I use? Unfortunately if they did that with these fares, a return from my house (zone 6) into Waterloo would cost £6.70 instead of £4.20. Something's got to give! Richard. |
Fares changes for 2007
On 13 Sep 2006 04:08:44 -0700, "sweek"
wrote: Neil Williams wrote: sweek wrote: An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine. This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4 quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages. Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it sold from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid the ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the invariably long queue). Neil No I wasn't being ironic. Just trying to keep it very simple, and ignore the things that probably won't affect tourists in the first place. I was just thinking that something about getting to Heathrow and Camden Town costing more should be in there, since those are the only tourist destination outside of zone 1 that I think people might go to. Greenwich. Which is likely to be accessed by rail. Oops... If you're a tourist in a place you don't know I think you're actually way more likely to go to the ticket counter anyway, but yes, machines that show you everything clearly would be nice. I tend to use machines abroad, as a) many of them speak something resembling English b) you can play with the options to find a suitable product on offer. I've had completely blank looks when I've asked at ticket offices for an all-day ticket in cities which actually use 24 hour tickets (which are not quite the same thing), but with machines you can have a guess at what a "24 oer fhfbwfblwfwfbwfw" or "1 taaaage-kaaart" option might be able to sell you. One thing I've noticed abroad is that sometimes day passes have special names, which can be tricky. "One day travelcard" offers a clue, "24 hour ticket" is explict, but some places offer "superdooper mega saver ticket", with no clue as to what they actually let you do. I've found that my knowledge of foreign lingo is now rather focused on "valid for two adults and a dog on weekends and bank holidays", and stuff from beer mats. -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Fares changes for 2007
Paul Corfield wrote:
Quite why he didn't just use the manual gate validator I do not know - these work in both entry and exit mode depending on what your card says. If your last transaction was an entry at a logical location and within a logical time then the validator will assume you are exiting. It employs the same logic to determine if you are entering. What appears logical to the designers of the fare system may not appear logical to the passenger. Where can the public obtain a table of these logical locations and logical times? On my two brief visits to London since Oyster was launched, I managed to thoroughly confuse the Oyster system several times. And, although I really shouldn't be looking over random strangers' shoulders while they use the ticket machines, I couldn't help but notice that many of their cards triggered the unresolved journey warning. I agree with Tristán that this is a problem. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
David of Broadway wrote: If you ever ride the River LINE (yes, that's really how it's spelled) in southern New Jersey (USA), be careful! I once watched an ticket inspector fine a poor passenger THREE times because, to kill time while waiting for the train, he punched his ticket four times (in four different locations). Sounds like he was an idiot - surely you can't travel more than once with one invalid ticket? Which man, the passenger or the inspector? There was only one ticket. After purchasing a ticket, the passenger must validate (time-stamp) it before boarding the train, and the ticket is valid for a specified period (90 minutes?) thereafter. This passenger, out of boredom, validated it on all four edges. It seems quite obvious to me that the earliest time stamped is the relevant one. Or perhaps the ticket is invalidated by multistamping, and the inspector was being a stickler for the rules. In that case, the passenger was riding without a valid ticket and should be subject to a fine -- but not to /three/ fines! And the instant he presented his college ID, the inspector should have informed him of the promotion and moved on to the next victim. OH! Now I see why you were confused. By "four different locations" I meant four spots on the ticket, not four stations. My fault for not being clear! (But, technically speaking, I believe that a River LINE ticket is valid for any number of trips within the relevant time limit, although I could be wrong.) -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Fares changes for 2007
Stephen Farrow wrote:
David of Broadway wrote: Stephen Farrow wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of ticket machine, but it was OOU. At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals. I've no idea whether or not this is still the case. When was this? I doubt it's still the case, although I don't know for sure. About three years ago. I'm surprised, then. In any case, I was last at LGA in early 2004, but, having just been assaulted on the M60 bus, I was more interested in obtaining ice than in obtaining a MetroCard. (Really. My luggage brushed against somebody's leg and he took out his aggression on my eye.) But ever since the price jumped from $4 to $7, the Fun Pass has been an incredibly bad deal for nearly everyone. What most people want is a $10 pay-per-ride MetroCard; longer-term tourists might opt for a $24 7-day unlimited MetroCard. Which is what I've done every time since. That trip, though, I needed a one-day pass - I was arriving in the morning (from Toronto), meeting a friend in Midtown, heading over to Lincoln Center to do some research at the Performing Arts Library, then heading to Penn Station in the evening to catch a train out to Hofstra University, where I was going to a conference. And, of course, I arrived without exact change for the bus, and a cab to Manhattan was beyond my graduate student budget. It was only by asking around in the terminal that I got directed to the one newsstand that sold the Fun Pass. If you remember, did you pay $4 or $7 for the Fun Pass? (The price changed in 2003 -- May, I think it was.) The $4 version was a good deal in many cases. But if you paid $7, and those were the only trips you made, you /still/ would have been better off paying per ride. And even if there were other trips that you didn't list, with a bit of planning, it's often possible to pair up trips to take advantage of free bus-subway transfers. (For instance, if you weren't spending much time at the library, the Midtown - Lincoln Center - Penn Station triple could have been done on a single fare by taking the subway in one direction and a bus in the other. I don't know where in Midtown you were coming from, but the M10 and M20 buses run directly from Lincoln Center to Penn Station.) Obviously, this all depends on your understanding the MetroCard transfer policy and its implications. As a reader of this newsgroup, I'm sure you do, but the average tourist certainly doesn't. (For everybody else: The MetroCard system provides a single free transfer from bus to bus or from bus to subway or from subway to bus. The transfer is valid for 2 hours and 18 minutes, swipe to swipe. It is not valid for a round trip on a single bus route, but if a particular trip can be made by either bus or subway, the system doesn't know or care if you make a round trip by going one way by bus and the other way by subway. With two exceptions introduced in 2001, subway-to-subway transfers are all inside fare control.) Mind you, Toronto airport isn't really any better. There's the very overpriced Pacific Western bus downtown, which is fairly easy to find from the arrivals level of each terminal. There's a very good TTC bus service to the subway, but you need exact change or metropass or a token, and as far as I know none of the newsstands in any of the three terminals sell tokens or tickets (or TTC day passes, which are also valid), despite the fact that convenience stores all over the city are set up to sell TTC tickets and passes. I fondly recall my visit last summer to Prague. Upon arrival from Vienna at the Holešovice train station, I promptly went to an ATM to obtain cash. After spending a few minutes finding the appropriate direction to walk towards the tram I needed -- you see, I had identified the numbers of the tram lines that would get me to my hotel, but the signs only gave terminals, not numbers -- I walked up to a ticket machine. It accepted coins only. ATM's don't dispense coins. So I walked up to the ticket window. It was closed. In the middle of a weekday afternoon, at a major railroad station. I then went down into the underpass to the trams (down the stairs with my luggage -- there were no elevators/lifts or even ramps). The underpass had two exits, again, with stairs. Neither one was signed. Eventually, I found a second ticket window, this one open, at the top of the second staircase, around the corner from the tram stop I needed. (While in Prague, I visited the downtown Tesco. It was most incredibly unlike any of the Tescos I came across in London.) -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Fares changes for 2007
David of Broadway wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote: David of Broadway wrote: Stephen Farrow wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of ticket machine, but it was OOU. At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals. I've no idea whether or not this is still the case. When was this? I doubt it's still the case, although I don't know for sure. About three years ago. I'm surprised, then. In any case, I was last at LGA in early 2004, but, having just been assaulted on the M60 bus, I was more interested in obtaining ice than in obtaining a MetroCard. (Really. My luggage brushed against somebody's leg and he took out his aggression on my eye.) But ever since the price jumped from $4 to $7, the Fun Pass has been an incredibly bad deal for nearly everyone. What most people want is a $10 pay-per-ride MetroCard; longer-term tourists might opt for a $24 7-day unlimited MetroCard. Which is what I've done every time since. That trip, though, I needed a one-day pass - I was arriving in the morning (from Toronto), meeting a friend in Midtown, heading over to Lincoln Center to do some research at the Performing Arts Library, then heading to Penn Station in the evening to catch a train out to Hofstra University, where I was going to a conference. And, of course, I arrived without exact change for the bus, and a cab to Manhattan was beyond my graduate student budget. It was only by asking around in the terminal that I got directed to the one newsstand that sold the Fun Pass. If you remember, did you pay $4 or $7 for the Fun Pass? (The price changed in 2003 -- May, I think it was.) $4. This was March 2003. When I've been since, I've arrived at Newark (often despite booking a flight to LaGuardia. I seem to encounter a *lot* of flight cancellations when travelling to New York). The $4 version was a good deal in many cases. But if you paid $7, and those were the only trips you made, you /still/ would have been better off paying per ride. If it had been $7, I'd have bought a stored-value metrocard instead. And even if there were other trips that you didn't list, with a bit of planning, it's often possible to pair up trips to take advantage of free bus-subway transfers. (For instance, if you weren't spending much time at the library, the Midtown - Lincoln Center - Penn Station triple could have been done on a single fare by taking the subway in one direction and a bus in the other. I don't know where in Midtown you were coming from, but the M10 and M20 buses run directly from Lincoln Center to Penn Station.) Obviously, this all depends on your understanding the MetroCard transfer policy and its implications. As a reader of this newsgroup, I'm sure you do, but the average tourist certainly doesn't. Quite. Since I don't drive, I make a point of figuring out the public transport systems *in advance*, before I travel (and, anyway, I've spent enough time in New York that I've a reasonable grasp on the system there). Of course, the *real* challenge to a tourist would be figuring out bus fares etc somewhere like Manchester, where there's a deregulated bus service, multiple operators (sometimes on the same route), and no standard overall fare structure. -- Stephen BUFFY: How've you been? AMY: Rat. You? BUFFY: Dead. |
Fares changes for 2007
David of Broadway wrote:
Or perhaps the ticket is invalidated by multistamping, and the inspector was being a stickler for the rules. In that case, the passenger was riding without a valid ticket and should be subject to a fine -- but not to /three/ fines! That was what I meant - wasn't clear how to explain it! It may well be the case that defacing the ticket (e.g. by stamping it outside of the designated area) invalidates it, in which case one fine - under no circumstances should three be due, as only one offence of travelling without a valid ticket has been committed. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
David of Broadway wrote:
It accepted coins only. ATM's don't dispense coins. Try .nl. Small stations have only ticket machines, that don't accept notes. Nor do they accept credit cards, only Maestro debit cards (and I don't know about UK Switch-Maestro cards as they are an odd system that used to be UK only). There is a fine for boarding without a ticket, and no exceptions unless the ticket machine was actually not working (and you have to appeal that after the event). This, notably, is not on local transport (where you can get a Strippenkaart from lots of places, and you can pay the bus driver if you prefer, though you'll pay extra for doing so, and he will take notes if he has enough change). This is on the national rail system. Bloody ridiculous. (While in Prague, I visited the downtown Tesco. It was most incredibly unlike any of the Tescos I came across in London.) In what way, OOI? (Tesco stores abroad tend to be other chains purchased by Tesco, so that might be why). Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Stephen Farrow wrote:
Of course, the *real* challenge to a tourist would be figuring out bus fares etc somewhere like Manchester, where there's a deregulated bus service, multiple operators (sometimes on the same route), and no standard overall fare structure. True, though at least the ticket can be purchased from the driver, and change will usually be given. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
Stephen Farrow wrote: Of course, the *real* challenge to a tourist would be figuring out bus fares etc somewhere like Manchester, where there's a deregulated bus service, multiple operators (sometimes on the same route), and no standard overall fare structure. True, though at least the ticket can be purchased from the driver, and change will usually be given. Yes; that gets more complicated when you try and buy a day pass. I quite regularly, when I'm back home (Oldham, where I grew up), buy bus and train daysavers; asking for one of these seems to confuse some bus drivers, who don't always appear to know how to get the full range of tickets they're meant to be able to sell out of the machine (and I'm not talking about the smaller operators, either - I'm talking about First). Since single, distance-based bus tickets in the area are now ludicrously expensive, you'd think drivers would be properly trained in the range of day tickets available (even bus-only tickets seem to cause confusion with some drivers if you *don't* want the one that's only valid on First services). -- Stephen It's never too late, as a wise person once said. I think it was Kylie. |
Fares changes for 2007
Stephen Farrow wrote:
(even bus-only tickets seem to cause confusion with some drivers if you *don't* want the one that's only valid on First services). This is likely a deliberate ploy by First, given that they tried to withdraw the tickets from sale (and were duly kicked by GMPTE for doing so). Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote: Stephen Farrow wrote: (even bus-only tickets seem to cause confusion with some drivers if you *don't* want the one that's only valid on First services). This is likely a deliberate ploy by First, given that they tried to withdraw the tickets from sale (and were duly kicked by GMPTE for doing so). Ah. I didn't know that - I no longer live in the area (or even in the UK). That makes sense. Stephen |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
David of Broadway wrote: It accepted coins only. ATM's don't dispense coins. Try .nl. Small stations have only ticket machines, that don't accept notes. Nor do they accept credit cards, only Maestro debit cards (and I don't know about UK Switch-Maestro cards as they are an odd system that used to be UK only). There is a fine for boarding without a ticket, and no exceptions unless the ticket machine was actually not working (and you have to appeal that after the event). Hardly a small station, but I ran into problems buying a train ticket at Schiphol. Either I hadn't obtained cash yet or the machine didn't accept bills/notes or I simply wanted to preserve my cash, but I couldn't convince the machine to accept either my credit card or my ATM card. (Could it be because we don't have chip-and-PIN here? I also had trouble this year at the large Oyster machines in London, although the small ones seemed to accept my card.) So I waited in a long line at the ticket window and bought my ticket there. I later realized that I was overcharged by €0.50, and I'm still not sure why -- perhaps that was a surcharge for buying a ticket from a human? As if I had a choice! This, notably, is not on local transport (where you can get a Strippenkaart from lots of places, and you can pay the bus driver if you prefer, though you'll pay extra for doing so, and he will take notes if he has enough change). This is on the national rail system. When I got into Amsterdam, I asked at an information booth how to buy a tram ticket, since I didn't see any ticket machines. He told me to just buy one from the driver. He did /not/ mention the Strippenkaart option. Granted, I should have done my own research in advance, but it would been nice if the person at the information booth had given me some more information. In what way, OOI? (Tesco stores abroad tend to be other chains purchased by Tesco, so that might be why). I hope I offend anyone with my observations, but I've never seen such a crowded supermarket. Customers were frantically stocking up, as though they had a half hour to buy all the groceries they'd need for the next three months. I was going to buy a souvenir (perhaps the Kroger-brand instant oatmeal that dominated the American food section), but I changed my mind when I saw the immensely long lines to pay. I later read somewhere -- and I have no idea if this is accurate or not -- that this Tesco was the only supermarket in Prague. So perhaps people really do stock up for long periods, so they can avoid having to make frequent trips to what is surely an inconvenient location for many of them. Oh, and there was a clothing store upstairs. Also Tesco. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Fares changes for 2007
tkd ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying : What happened to parents paying their childrens' way, then? Or, in teenagers' cases, a paper round or Saturday job? Not everyone in London is middle class. Is the concept of getting a job to pay your own way a uniquely "middle class" one, then? |
Fares changes for 2007
Stephen Farrow wrote:
David of Broadway wrote: Stephen Farrow wrote: David of Broadway wrote: Stephen Farrow wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: I found Budapest airport a bit rude, as the transport information desk would only sell transport+museum passes to us phrasebook-wielding tourists, but not the equivalent of a travel card, even though we knew what to ask for. They just don't sell 'em. There was some sort of ticket machine, but it was OOU. At one point, at LaGuardia airport in New York, it was possible to buy an MTA "fun pass" (day pass) only from *one* newsstand - which was helpfully located on the departures level, rather than in arrivals. I've no idea whether or not this is still the case. When was this? I doubt it's still the case, although I don't know for sure. About three years ago. I'm surprised, then. In any case, I was last at LGA in early 2004, but, having just been assaulted on the M60 bus, I was more interested in obtaining ice than in obtaining a MetroCard. (Really. My luggage brushed against somebody's leg and he took out his aggression on my eye.) But ever since the price jumped from $4 to $7, the Fun Pass has been an incredibly bad deal for nearly everyone. What most people want is a $10 pay-per-ride MetroCard; longer-term tourists might opt for a $24 7-day unlimited MetroCard. Which is what I've done every time since. That trip, though, I needed a one-day pass - I was arriving in the morning (from Toronto), meeting a friend in Midtown, heading over to Lincoln Center to do some research at the Performing Arts Library, then heading to Penn Station in the evening to catch a train out to Hofstra University, where I was going to a conference. And, of course, I arrived without exact change for the bus, and a cab to Manhattan was beyond my graduate student budget. It was only by asking around in the terminal that I got directed to the one newsstand that sold the Fun Pass. If you remember, did you pay $4 or $7 for the Fun Pass? (The price changed in 2003 -- May, I think it was.) $4. This was March 2003. When I've been since, I've arrived at Newark (often despite booking a flight to LaGuardia. I seem to encounter a *lot* of flight cancellations when travelling to New York). Ah, in that case you got a good deal. Of course, the *real* challenge to a tourist would be figuring out bus fares etc somewhere like Manchester, where there's a deregulated bus service, multiple operators (sometimes on the same route), and no standard overall fare structure. Or Cambridge. I boarded a Cambridge Blue bus and the driver offered to sell me a single for 1.00 or a return for £1.70. Since I knew I had to get back, I bought the return. For my return trip, I noticed that Cambridge Blue had shut down for the evening, so I boarded a Stagecoach bus, and the driver laughed at me when I showed him my ticket. And then he seemed annoyed when I pulled out a £20 note to buy a Stagecoach ticket (as if I should have made sure to hold onto enough change to buy a bus ticket that I had no idea I'd have to buy). Having just come from London, with its fare integration, on a National Rail ticket that I was told would be accepted on either First Capital Connect from King's Cross or on 'one' from Liverpool Street, this caught me by surprise. But apparently it's London and National Rail that are the exception, not the rule. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Fares changes for 2007
What happened to parents paying their childrens' way, then? Or, in
teenagers' cases, a paper round or Saturday job? Not everyone in London is middle class. By providing the travel concession as a universal benefit, children from disadvantaged backgrounds get to travel free without the stigma of receiving a targeted or means tested benefit. There are other positive externalities to getting young people used to using public transport on a regular basis which include the environmental impact. Is the concept of getting a job to pay your own way a uniquely "middle class" one, then? No, it is uniquely middle class to begrudge people who are less fortunate any assistance in bettering their situation. Lack of access to public transport is one of the main causes of social exclusion. By providing free transport, access is given to education and other services (without stigma) and it ensures that money earned "to pay your own way" can be used to for things like food and heating. |
Fares changes for 2007
tkd ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying : What happened to parents paying their childrens' way, then? Or, in teenagers' cases, a paper round or Saturday job? Not everyone in London is middle class. By providing the travel concession as a universal benefit, children from disadvantaged backgrounds get to travel free without the stigma of receiving a targeted or means tested benefit. There are other positive externalities to getting young people used to using public transport on a regular basis which include the environmental impact. Is the concept of getting a job to pay your own way a uniquely "middle class" one, then? No, it is uniquely middle class to begrudge people who are less fortunate any assistance in bettering their situation. Who's begrudging anybody anything? |
Fares changes for 2007
David of Broadway wrote:
Hardly a small station, but I ran into problems buying a train ticket at Schiphol. Either I hadn't obtained cash yet or the machine didn't accept bills/notes or I simply wanted to preserve my cash, but I couldn't convince the machine to accept either my credit card or my ATM card. (Could it be because we don't have chip-and-PIN here? I also had trouble this year at the large Oyster machines in London, although the small ones seemed to accept my card.) Schiphol is the exception to the rule in that the ticket machines *do* accept credit cards. They do ask for a PIN, but I believe they don't verify it (as the Dutch don't use Chip & PIN yet - they use a much more rudimentary "strip and PIN" system, and sign for credit card transactions). That said I always enter the correct PIN as I don't want to risk card trouble when abroad, so someone else can test that theory if they like ;) So I waited in a long line at the ticket window and bought my ticket there. I later realized that I was overcharged by €0.50, and I'm still not sure why -- perhaps that was a surcharge for buying a ticket from a human? As if I had a choice! Yes, there is a surcharge, and you should have been given a separate ticket to represent that charge. It is bloody ridiculous. As, additionally, is the fact that you can't buy an international ticket beyond NL/BE/LU or a limited number of stations in Germany except at some very large stations and the ticket machines - if you have change! While NS does have the Taktfahrplan (connectional regular interval timetable) just about sewn up, not to mention the rather odd (!) idea of actually running enough capacity on their trains, they are years behind the UK in terms of passenger information and friendliness, especially to foreigners. Notably, in the land of integrated transport, you can't buy a through train-bus ticket like you can in the UK (though if you have a Strippenkaart it isn't really an issue). When I got into Amsterdam, I asked at an information booth how to buy a tram ticket, since I didn't see any ticket machines. He told me to just buy one from the driver. He did /not/ mention the Strippenkaart option. Granted, I should have done my own research in advance, but it would been nice if the person at the information booth had given me some more information. Indeed. I'm surprised they didn't sell you a day ticket or something. I hope I offend anyone with my observations, but I've never seen such a crowded supermarket. Customers were frantically stocking up, as though they had a half hour to buy all the groceries they'd need for the next three months. I was going to buy a souvenir (perhaps the Kroger-brand instant oatmeal that dominated the American food section), but I changed my mind when I saw the immensely long lines to pay. Sounds like a lot of Tesco Metros, smaller city stores where there is less room for tills. (IMX most Tesco superstores have more than sufficient even at busy times). Oh, and there was a clothing store upstairs. Also Tesco. Common in the UK - they, and Asda, are getting a significant part of the cheaper (but still decent quality) end of the market. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
David of Broadway wrote:
Having just come from London, with its fare integration, on a National Rail ticket that I was told would be accepted on either First Capital Connect from King's Cross or on 'one' from Liverpool Street, this caught me by surprise. But apparently it's London and National Rail that are the exception, not the rule. What happened with National Rail was a bit of learning from the mistakes of bus deregulation, albeit by introducing other mistakes. I hate to think how things would have been if the bus free-for-all had hit the rails. There are, in certain areas, interavailable tickets. They aren't the rule, though, and they are inconsistent and complex. Visitors not wishing to have to argue the point about whether a given ticket is valid or not are probably best off just buying cash singles from the driver, noting (!) that bus drivers are usually only happy to accept the note "above" the fare (i.e. £5 note for a fare less than £5, £10 for a fare £5-£10 etc) as they tend to carry limited amounts of change, and that in a very small number of places (e.g. Birmingham) there are exact change policies. Whatever "Uncle Ken" does with his overcharging for singles, London is still far better off... Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
On Fri, 15 Sep 2006 05:08:09 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote: On my two brief visits to London since Oyster was launched, I managed to thoroughly confuse the Oyster system several times. And, although I really shouldn't be looking over random strangers' shoulders while they use the ticket machines, I couldn't help but notice that many of their cards triggered the unresolved journey warning. I agree with Tristán that this is a problem. I think Oyster is an excellent system, which would have been very easy to use except for a few exceptions that let it down and make things more complicated, usually at the interface between different modes, and sometimes made worse by the physical layout of the stations. Pre-pay users seem to get the worst of it, especially with the £4 charge for not Doing the Right Thing - IMHO it's far too early to introduce this charge while there are so many special rules around. I'm talking mainly of National Rail stations, London Bridge and Wimbledon, where I think I paid 3 times for a tram journey (long story), and all the various validators around with special instructions - for instance the Entry Only at Bank onto the DLR, of course I touched it there anyway on the way out as like most people I didn't read the instructions but it was all OK in the end. Perhaps the system is more forgiving than I think? Also, I might be over-stating it: most people will be making "simple" Underground journeys where you can't go far wrong, from an Oyster point of view. Perhaps these special cases will go away with proper fare integration, leaving the system that it should have been all along. As usual, thanks to the politicians for that. I'm still a bit concerned about arrangements for stations that need to be evacuated. Will people still try to validate their cards on the way out? (A comparison with Couronnes might be stretching it a bit, but there's a potential problem, I think.) How is a £4 charge or unresolved journey cancelled, if the user rarely travels on the Underground? Richard. |
Fares changes for 2007
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 04:08:44 -0700, "sweek" wrote: Neil Williams wrote: sweek wrote: An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine. This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4 quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages. Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it sold from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid the ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the invariably long queue). Neil No I wasn't being ironic. Just trying to keep it very simple, and ignore the things that probably won't affect tourists in the first place. I was just thinking that something about getting to Heathrow and Camden Town costing more should be in there, since those are the only tourist destination outside of zone 1 that I think people might go to. Greenwich. Which is likely to be accessed by rail. Oops... I would direct tourists via the DLR to Greenwich - Cutty Sark DLR is closer to the tourist attractions and the DLR is much more tourist-friendly than trains from London Bridge or Charing Cross. -- Dave Arquati www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Fares changes for 2007
Great points, and nice to see people agreeing with me for a change :-))
One quick question (on behalf of my wife, who has a 1-3 annual ticket on her Oyster, but with £20 on top for whenever she may go out of zone... What happens if she forgets to touch out at Plaistow (the gates are always open) under the new rules? Will she be charged £4 from her contingency pre-pay for not ending the journey? Or are people with season tickets not charged in this way? |
Fares changes for 2007
About those problems in the Netherlands.
I think they reverted the system to the old system where you can buy a train ticket on the train, if you have a good reason for it anyway. That means that if you're a foreigner and can't use the ticket machines nor is there any ticket office (open), you can get on the train and buy it from the conductor. It is ridiculous however that even in the new machines that are being installed just now, you still can't use credit cards. i think Maestro cards should work with most European debit cards though, but I'm not sure of that. But you're right, it's ridiculous how bad our railways can be when it comes ot customer service and information at times, and we really need to start accepting credit cards in a lot more places. We are switching to integrated transport though; an OV Chipkaart, which is basically like an Oyster card that you should be able to use for any form of public transportation throughout the country in the end. Right now they are only testing it in the bigger cities. You might have seen the gates already in Amsterdam and Rotterdam if you have been there lately. Their website is available in Dutch only, but if anyone wants to have a look: http://www.ov-chipkaart.nl/ |
Fares changes for 2007
sweek wrote:
I think they reverted the system to the old system where you can buy a train ticket on the train, if you have a good reason for it anyway. Not so far as I know. I understand that on-train staff still have no way of issuing anything other than a penalty fare. If this did become the case, I'd like to know about it as it could be useful for me, as it's a right pain having to either keep 7 euro of change handy for Den Haag-Schiphol or wait in a bloody long queue (the 50 cent charge doesn't bother me as much as I'm not paying myself, though I do consider it very unfair). It is ridiculous however that even in the new machines that are being installed just now, you still can't use credit cards. i think Maestro cards should work with most European debit cards though, but I'm not sure of that. It's a common Dutch and German mistake to assume everyone follows the Maestro standard. Approximately 50% of UK debit cards are of the Visa (Delta) type, and these must be processed as if they were credit cards. The other 50% are Maestro cards, but they follow an old UK standard at times so I'm not 100% that they work abroad (though I have heard that they do work in NS ticket machines). I wouldn't even mind if NS charged the difference in costs (yes, the difference in costs, not a sneaky 4 quid penalty like cheapo airlines do) for processing credit cards in exchange for acceptance. The ticket machines themselves can do it, as the ones at Schiphol already do[1]. It's just a software and accounting mod that's necessary. [1] Actually, this must cause a lot of problems for tourists. It's not unreasonable to assume that as cards are accepted at Schiphol, they are also accepted elsewhere. But you're right, it's ridiculous how bad our railways can be when it comes ot customer service and information at times, and we really need to start accepting credit cards in a lot more places. Yep. They might also want to consider, when installing new passenger information displays that use LCD or LED, that these are vastly more flexible than the old flap board systems, and, as such, that it would be really helpful for tourists and others unfamiliar with the system if they could display all calling points rather than just a summary. We are switching to integrated transport though; an OV Chipkaart, which is basically like an Oyster card that you should be able to use for any form of public transportation throughout the country in the end. Right now they are only testing it in the bigger cities. You might have seen the gates already in Amsterdam and Rotterdam if you have been there lately. I've not been around those parts, but I have heard about it. Unlike Oyster, I understand that there's going to be a version that can be issued easily by a machine. The only concern I have about it is that I believe the plan is for "relational prices" to replace zonal fares, which suggests that the fares themselves are to become a whole lot less understandable, and more like the UK bus free-for-all, as well as disadvantaging[1] those who are forced[2] to make connectional journeys, which is the contemptible way most of the UK bus market operates. The Dutch authorities also *need* to realise that there will need to be, easily available, a means of loading up a card with cash. Not everyone has a Maestro-compatible card (see above). [1] I understand that, like in Singapore, there will be a discount for transfers within a certain time period. That can still disadvantage the passenger where two relational fares exceed the price of the through journey without changes. [2] Few people will do so by choice. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
asdf wrote:
Seriously? I always just change over without touching any readers at all, just like changing between Tube lines, and it works fine. Incidentally, acceptance of PAYG at the barriers at London Bridge STILL hasn't been fixed. Worse, the barrier staff seem to have been trained to tell you that it isn't valid, only letting you through if you insist it is. The following exchange is typical: Me: [walks up to side gate with Oyster card] Him: [points to Oyster reader on adjacent ticket gate. I assume he needs to see the error code] Me: [touches card on reader; as usual, it is rejected] Him: "Your Travelcard has expired." [points to excess fares window] Me: "I'm using pre-pay." Him: "It's not valid." [still pointing] "You need to buy a ticket." Me: "It is valid, on Thameslink." Him: "No it isn't." Me: "Yes it is. You're standing next to a poster that says it is." Him: "Where have you come from?" Me: "Farringdon." Him: [lets me out through the gate] I've been through a similar routine every time I've passed through (3 times in total) over the past couple of months, so I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. (Incidentally, I do touch in/out on the platform validator as well, and it does always charge the correct fare with no unresolved journeys.) That sounds familiar - TfL staff passes were (last time I tried) also rejected, despite being valid on the Thameslink. After this happened a few times, I took to carrying a printed copy of the National Rail easements around with me, which at least got me through. Cheers Steve M |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
Schiphol is the exception to the rule in that the ticket machines *do* accept credit cards. They do ask for a PIN, but I believe they don't verify it (as the Dutch don't use Chip & PIN yet - they use a much more rudimentary "strip and PIN" system, and sign for credit card transactions). Interesting. So I could have entered anything I felt like entering? Come to think of it, I think I also tried my ATM card, which requires a PIN even here. I used my PIN, but it didn't work. Yes, there is a surcharge, and you should have been given a separate ticket to represent that charge. I definitely did not get a separate ticket. All I got was a receipt. I hope I offend anyone with my observations, but I've never seen such a crowded supermarket. Customers were frantically stocking up, as though they had a half hour to buy all the groceries they'd need for the next three months. I was going to buy a souvenir (perhaps the Kroger-brand instant oatmeal that dominated the American food section), but I changed my mind when I saw the immensely long lines to pay. Sounds like a lot of Tesco Metros, smaller city stores where there is less room for tills. (IMX most Tesco superstores have more than sufficient even at busy times). No, this was nothing like a Tesco Metro. The overall store was much larger, and there were lots and lots of registers (er, tills). And the lines (er, queues) were much, much, much longer than I ever saw at the Tesco Metro I used several times last year on Notting Hill Gate, or for that matter at any of the even smaller Tesco Expresses I've used. Oh, and there was a clothing store upstairs. Also Tesco. Common in the UK - they, and Asda, are getting a significant part of the cheaper (but still decent quality) end of the market. Oh, I didn't know that Tesco had clothing stores in the UK. Asda, of course, is owned by our Wal-Mart. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Fares changes for 2007
David of Broadway wrote:
Interesting. So I could have entered anything I felt like entering? I think so, though for reasons noted I did enter the correct value ;) I definitely did not get a separate ticket. All I got was a receipt. Maybe it's changed recently, then. Every time I've bought a ticket from an NS booking office and been charged the surcharge, I've had a separate ticket for it. Oh, I didn't know that Tesco had clothing stores in the UK. Asda, of course, is owned by our Wal-Mart. No dedicated clothing stores that I can think of, but every "full-size" Tesco store has a clothing department of some sort, and all the Tesco Extra stores have a very large one which is a significant part of the business and not something on the side. Asda is owned by Wal-Mart, but MX is that its concept (apart from low prices) is very different. In particular, it is, or certainly was, known for looking after staff well, which is rather an opposite of what you often hear from Wal-Mart. The store interiors also tend to be of higher quality than Wal-Mart in the US, or for that matter Germany, while the ranges (of clothing and food) seem to be more complete rather than just "rock-bottom". Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Tristán White wrote: Great points, and nice to see people agreeing with me for a change :-)) One quick question (on behalf of my wife, who has a 1-3 annual ticket on her Oyster, but with £20 on top for whenever she may go out of zone... What happens if she forgets to touch out at Plaistow (the gates are always open) under the new rules? Will she be charged £4 from her contingency pre-pay for not ending the journey? Or are people with season tickets not charged in this way? This must be the same whether she had the extra £20 or not. She could use the travelcard to get through a gate in Zone 1, and then maybe end a journey on the DLR, with no gates and no need to touch. I've often done that with a travelcard. It doesn't assume that I went out of zone to a station with an open gate. |
Fares changes for 2007
Dave Arquati wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: On 13 Sep 2006 04:08:44 -0700, "sweek" wrote: Neil Williams wrote: sweek wrote: An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine. This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4 quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages. Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it sold from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid the ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the invariably long queue). Neil No I wasn't being ironic. Just trying to keep it very simple, and ignore the things that probably won't affect tourists in the first place. I was just thinking that something about getting to Heathrow and Camden Town costing more should be in there, since those are the only tourist destination outside of zone 1 that I think people might go to. Greenwich. Which is likely to be accessed by rail. Oops... I would direct tourists via the DLR to Greenwich - Cutty Sark DLR is closer to the tourist attractions and the DLR is much more tourist-friendly than trains from London Bridge or Charing Cross. There must be loads of tourist destinations outside of Zone 1. Crystal Palace, Hampton Court ... Also, when PAYG starts being accepted on SWT, how will tourists touch out on their way to Windsor? What will their extension ticket cost? |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
Not so far as I know. I understand that on-train staff still have no way of issuing anything other than a penalty fare. If this did become the case, I'd like to know about it as it could be useful for me, as it's a right pain having to either keep 7 euro of change handy for Den Haag-Schiphol or wait in a bloody long queue (the 50 cent charge doesn't bother me as much as I'm not paying myself, though I do consider it very unfair). I just looked it up... they are pondering the idea of switching back to the old system where the train staff can decide whether or not you have a legitimate reason. But it hasn't been introduced yet, sorry about that. It's a common Dutch and German mistake to assume everyone follows the Maestro standard. Approximately 50% of UK debit cards are of the Visa (Delta) type, and these must be processed as if they were credit cards. The other 50% are Maestro cards, but they follow an old UK standard at times so I'm not 100% that they work abroad (though I have heard that they do work in NS ticket machines). I've had problems with my Dutch bank card with Maestro on it in English shops, again. Haven't actually tried it on a train ticket machien though. ATM's work just fine. I wouldn't even mind if NS charged the difference in costs (yes, the difference in costs, not a sneaky 4 quid penalty like cheapo airlines do) for processing credit cards in exchange for acceptance. The ticket machines themselves can do it, as the ones at Schiphol already do[1]. It's just a software and accounting mod that's necessary. Given the amount of tourists that we get in Amsterdam and on Schiphol airport you'd really think they would work on that. The credit card + pin code thing is being introduced over here as well though, maybe that will speed it up. [1] Actually, this must cause a lot of problems for tourists. It's not unreasonable to assume that as cards are accepted at Schiphol, they are also accepted elsewhere. That would be a lot more logical. At least Amsterdam Centraal should be able to do it as well, given how many tourists there are over there. They might also want to consider, when installing new passenger information displays that use LCD or LED, that these are vastly more flexible than the old flap board systems, and, as such, that it would be really helpful for tourists and others unfamiliar with the system if they could display all calling points rather than just a summary. I'm not sure what places you often go to, but I think the electronic information displays on platforms do give that kind of information. Examples: ttp://img284.imageshack.us/img284/8827/ctanieuw28fc.jpg http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2055/ctanieuw17iz.jpg Those are just tests, and people have been complaining about the small font and that it's hard to see when the sun shines directly on them. Haven't actually run into them myself yet. I've not been around those parts, but I have heard about it. Unlike Oyster, I understand that there's going to be a version that can be issued easily by a machine. The only concern I have about it is that I believe the plan is for "relational prices" to replace zonal fares, which suggests that the fares themselves are to become a whole lot less understandable, and more like the UK bus free-for-all, as well as disadvantaging[1] those who are forced[2] to make connectional journeys, which is the contemptible way most of the UK bus market operates. I haven't actually heard of that plan yet, to be honest, nor anything about how the fares might change when this system is being introduced. I'm looking at the website and can't find anything about that. |
Fares changes for 2007
O, I did just find some more information:
The travel costs will be more precise, and calculated based on the number of kilometers travelled for all modes of transport, as is the case with trains now. It seems more fair really, especially if you live just outside/inside a certain zone you travel to often you will appreciate that. It'd be great if the fare was actually measured over all the modes of transport without extra costs for transferring from say, subway to train. But I guess that's no the case? |
Fares changes for 2007
sweek wrote:
I just looked it up... they are pondering the idea of switching back to the old system where the train staff can decide whether or not you have a legitimate reason. But it hasn't been introduced yet, sorry about that. Good. I'd hope that "no change and no ticket office" was a legitimate reason. It's just not reasonable to expect someone to carry enough coinage (given that EUR 2 is the smallest coin) for a fare that might be well into double figures. While I don't think it's written down anywhere (as it just says "no means of buying a ticket"), for similar reasons, it is generally accepted in the UK that if there is no ticket *office* it is acceptable to pay on the train. I've had problems with my Dutch bank card with Maestro on it in English shops, again. Not surprising. The UK "Maestro" system originates from, and is still processed by, the old Switch/Solo system, which was a UK-only debit card scheme that didn't support foreign transactions at all. Visa Delta is a nicer system as such a debit card can be processed by the same mechanism as a credit card, so theoretically should be more widely accepted, though some of Western Europe is an issue. That would be a lot more logical. At least Amsterdam Centraal should be able to do it as well, given how many tourists there are over there. Agreed. That, or offer period returns for twice the single fare, so I could just buy both at Schiphol without a surcharge. I'm not sure what places you often go to, but I think the electronic information displays on platforms do give that kind of information. Examples: ttp://img284.imageshack.us/img284/8827/ctanieuw28fc.jpg http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2055/ctanieuw17iz.jpg Those are just tests, and people have been complaining about the small font and that it's hard to see when the sun shines directly on them. Haven't actually run into them myself yet. I've seen them but only from a distance - my main route is Schiphol-Den Haag at the moment. It did surprise me that they've gone for LCD, as amber LED technology has been proven to be the superior technology throughout the UK. It isn't as pretty, but it's more readable, even in sunlight, is very robust and very flexible. The UK convention has long been to show all calling points. It looks to me like those displays you show aren't doing this, but are showing more via points than the flap displays. The German examples show even fewer (but in a larger font). The UK approach is to scroll the calling points in a largeish font, and it appears to work well. I haven't actually heard of that plan yet, to be honest, nor anything about how the fares might change when this system is being introduced. I'm looking at the website and can't find anything about that. There's a fare lookup thing on the 9292ov (or is it ov9292, I forget...) website, which shows it being relationally rather than zonally or kilometrically priced, but that might just be for convenience. A fairer way of pricing would perhaps be "as the crow flies" between start and end points - after all, it's not the passenger's fault that they have to take a longer journey to complete a shorter one, it's the system's fault. Because the zones are quite large, they in effect provide this - though they do have the anomaly of causing a short journey across a zone boundary to cost more. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
"MIG" wrote in message ups.com... Dave Arquati wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: On 13 Sep 2006 04:08:44 -0700, "sweek" wrote: Neil Williams wrote: sweek wrote: An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine. This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4 quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages. Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it sold from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid the ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the invariably long queue). Neil No I wasn't being ironic. Just trying to keep it very simple, and ignore the things that probably won't affect tourists in the first place. I was just thinking that something about getting to Heathrow and Camden Town costing more should be in there, since those are the only tourist destination outside of zone 1 that I think people might go to. Greenwich. Which is likely to be accessed by rail. Oops... I would direct tourists via the DLR to Greenwich - Cutty Sark DLR is closer to the tourist attractions and the DLR is much more tourist-friendly than trains from London Bridge or Charing Cross. There must be loads of tourist destinations outside of Zone 1. Crystal Palace, Hampton Court ... Also, when PAYG starts being accepted on SWT, how will tourists touch out on their way to Windsor? What will their extension ticket cost? And how will Oyster do network card (or any other railcard) discounts. tim |
Fares changes for 2007
tim(yet another new home) wrote:
And how will Oyster do network card (or any other railcard) discounts. I would expect that it won't. What we're most likely to see, I reckon, is a German-style joint tariff in which TfL sets fares and "national rail" type offers won't be valid. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
sweek wrote: About those problems in the Netherlands. I think they reverted the system to the old system where you can buy a train ticket on the train, if you have a good reason for it anyway. That means that if you're a foreigner and can't use the ticket machines nor is there any ticket office (open), you can get on the train and buy it from the conductor. It is ridiculous however that even in the new machines that are being installed just now, you still can't use credit cards. i think Maestro cards should work with most European debit cards though, but I'm not sure of that. It's also ridiculous that ticket machines *in an airport* won't accept bills. I've had fun at Schiphol as well - for just a return ticket into Amsterdam, I should have been able to use the machine with a 10- or 20-Euro note. Stephen |
Fares changes for 2007
When will these fares be made final? |
Fares changes for 2007
In message , Peter Frimberley
wrote: On 12 Sep 2006 09:29:06 -0700, "Neil Williams" wrote: ??? No they're not. Paris, Stockholm, Budapest, New York, Sydney, Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok- the metro systems in these and many many other cities - in fact I'd go so far as to say most cities of the world - have barriers. Brussels and Berlin don't have barriers. I'd put money on very few foreign travellers managing to get to London without ever having seen a barrier on a metro system. -- OpenPGP key fingerprint: D0A6 F403 9745 CED4 6B3B 94CC 8D74 8FC9 9F7F CFE4 No to software patents! Victory to the iraqi resistance! |
| All times are GMT. The time now is 05:40 AM. |
Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2025, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright ©2004-2006 LondonBanter.co.uk