Tristán White wrote:
Great points, and nice to see people agreeing with me for a change :-))

One quick question (on behalf of my wife, who has a 1-3 annual ticket on
her Oyster, but with £20 on top for whenever she may go out of zone...

What happens if she forgets to touch out at Plaistow (the gates are always
open) under the new rules?

Will she be charged £4 from her contingency pre-pay for not ending the
journey? Or are people with season tickets not charged in this way?


This must be the same whether she had the extra £20 or not. She could
use the travelcard to get through a gate in Zone 1, and then maybe end
a journey on the DLR, with no gates and no need to touch. I've often
done that with a travelcard. It doesn't assume that I went out of zone
to a station with an open gate.

Dave Arquati wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 04:08:44 -0700, "sweek"
wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:
sweek wrote:

An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates
with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not have
to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for you
to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one fifty
on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can travel
around. You can check your balance at every station using the machine.
This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you
may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket
machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4
quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages.

Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it sold
from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for
ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid the
ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the
invariably long queue).

Neil
No I wasn't being ironic. Just trying to keep it very simple, and
ignore the things that probably won't affect tourists in the first
place. I was just thinking that something about getting to Heathrow and
Camden Town costing more should be in there, since those are the only
tourist destination outside of zone 1 that I think people might go to.

Greenwich. Which is likely to be accessed by rail. Oops...

I would direct tourists via the DLR to Greenwich - Cutty Sark DLR is
closer to the tourist attractions and the DLR is much more
tourist-friendly than trains from London Bridge or Charing Cross.


There must be loads of tourist destinations outside of Zone 1. Crystal
Palace, Hampton Court ... Also, when PAYG starts being accepted on
SWT, how will tourists touch out on their way to Windsor? What will
their extension ticket cost?

Neil Williams wrote:

Not so far as I know. I understand that on-train staff still have no
way of issuing anything other than a penalty fare.

If this did become the case, I'd like to know about it as it could be
useful for me, as it's a right pain having to either keep 7 euro of
change handy for Den Haag-Schiphol or wait in a bloody long queue (the
50 cent charge doesn't bother me as much as I'm not paying myself,
though I do consider it very unfair).
I just looked it up... they are pondering the idea of switching back to
the old system where the train staff can decide whether or not you have
a legitimate reason. But it hasn't been introduced yet, sorry about
that.

It's a common Dutch and German mistake to assume everyone follows the
Maestro standard. Approximately 50% of UK debit cards are of the Visa
(Delta) type, and these must be processed as if they were credit cards.
The other 50% are Maestro cards, but they follow an old UK standard at
times so I'm not 100% that they work abroad (though I have heard that
they do work in NS ticket machines).

I've had problems with my Dutch bank card with Maestro on it in English
shops, again. Haven't actually tried it on a train ticket machien
though. ATM's work just fine.

I wouldn't even mind if NS charged the difference in costs (yes, the
difference in costs, not a sneaky 4 quid penalty like cheapo airlines
do) for processing credit cards in exchange for acceptance. The ticket
machines themselves can do it, as the ones at Schiphol already do[1].
It's just a software and accounting mod that's necessary.

Given the amount of tourists that we get in Amsterdam and on Schiphol
airport you'd really think they would work on that. The credit card +
pin code thing is being introduced over here as well though, maybe that
will speed it up.

[1] Actually, this must cause a lot of problems for tourists. It's not
unreasonable to assume that as cards are accepted at Schiphol, they are
also accepted elsewhere.

That would be a lot more logical. At least Amsterdam Centraal should be
able to do it as well, given how many tourists there are over there.

They might also want to consider, when installing new passenger
information displays that use LCD or LED, that these are vastly more
flexible than the old flap board systems, and, as such, that it would
be really helpful for tourists and others unfamiliar with the system if
they could display all calling points rather than just a summary.

I'm not sure what places you often go to, but I think the electronic
information displays on platforms do give that kind of information.
Examples:
ttp://img284.imageshack.us/img284/8827/ctanieuw28fc.jpg
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2055/ctanieuw17iz.jpg
Those are just tests, and people have been complaining about the small
font and that it's hard to see when the sun shines directly on them.
Haven't actually run into them myself yet.

I've not been around those parts, but I have heard about it. Unlike
Oyster, I understand that there's going to be a version that can be
issued easily by a machine. The only concern I have about it is that I
believe the plan is for "relational prices" to replace zonal fares,
which suggests that the fares themselves are to become a whole lot less
understandable, and more like the UK bus free-for-all, as well as
disadvantaging[1] those who are forced[2] to make connectional
journeys, which is the contemptible way most of the UK bus market
operates.
I haven't actually heard of that plan yet, to be honest, nor anything
about how the fares might change when this system is being introduced.
I'm looking at the website and can't find anything about that.

O, I did just find some more information:

The travel costs will be more precise, and calculated based on the
number of kilometers travelled for all modes of transport, as is the
case with trains now.
It seems more fair really, especially if you live just outside/inside a
certain zone you travel to often you will appreciate that. It'd be
great if the fare was actually measured over all the modes of transport
without extra costs for transferring from say, subway to train. But I
guess that's no the case?

sweek wrote:

I just looked it up... they are pondering the idea of switching back to
the old system where the train staff can decide whether or not you have
a legitimate reason. But it hasn't been introduced yet, sorry about
that.

Good. I'd hope that "no change and no ticket office" was a legitimate
reason. It's just not reasonable to expect someone to carry enough
coinage (given that EUR 2 is the smallest coin) for a fare that might
be well into double figures.

While I don't think it's written down anywhere (as it just says "no
means of buying a ticket"), for similar reasons, it is generally
accepted in the UK that if there is no ticket *office* it is acceptable
to pay on the train.

I've had problems with my Dutch bank card with Maestro on it in English
shops, again.

Not surprising. The UK "Maestro" system originates from, and is still
processed by, the old Switch/Solo system, which was a UK-only debit
card scheme that didn't support foreign transactions at all.

Visa Delta is a nicer system as such a debit card can be processed by
the same mechanism as a credit card, so theoretically should be more
widely accepted, though some of Western Europe is an issue.

That would be a lot more logical. At least Amsterdam Centraal should be
able to do it as well, given how many tourists there are over there.

Agreed. That, or offer period returns for twice the single fare, so I
could just buy both at Schiphol without a surcharge.

I'm not sure what places you often go to, but I think the electronic
information displays on platforms do give that kind of information.
Examples:
ttp://img284.imageshack.us/img284/8827/ctanieuw28fc.jpg
http://img45.imageshack.us/img45/2055/ctanieuw17iz.jpg
Those are just tests, and people have been complaining about the small
font and that it's hard to see when the sun shines directly on them.
Haven't actually run into them myself yet.

I've seen them but only from a distance - my main route is
Schiphol-Den Haag at the moment. It did surprise me that they've
gone for LCD, as amber LED technology has been proven to be the
superior technology throughout the UK. It isn't as pretty, but it's
more readable, even in sunlight, is very robust and very flexible.

The UK convention has long been to show all calling points. It looks
to me like those displays you show aren't doing this, but are showing
more via points than the flap displays. The German examples show even
fewer (but in a larger font). The UK approach is to scroll the calling
points in a largeish font, and it appears to work well.

I haven't actually heard of that plan yet, to be honest, nor anything
about how the fares might change when this system is being introduced.
I'm looking at the website and can't find anything about that.

There's a fare lookup thing on the 9292ov (or is it ov9292, I
forget...) website, which shows it being relationally rather than
zonally or kilometrically priced, but that might just be for
convenience.

A fairer way of pricing would perhaps be "as the crow flies" between
start and end points - after all, it's not the passenger's fault that
they have to take a longer journey to complete a shorter one, it's the
system's fault. Because the zones are quite large, they in effect
provide this - though they do have the anomaly of causing a short
journey across a zone boundary to cost more.

Neil

"MIG" wrote in message
ups.com...

Dave Arquati wrote:
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 13 Sep 2006 04:08:44 -0700, "sweek"
wrote:

Neil Williams wrote:
sweek wrote:

An Oyster is a little card that you touch in and touch out the gates
with. On buses, you only touch in. Get a PAYG one and you do not
have
to worry about how much it costs. It will be the cheapest way for
you
to get around. A trip will cost you 1 pound on the bus, and one
fifty
on the tube. Put enough money on the card to make sure you can
travel
around. You can check your balance at every station using the
machine.
This is roughly the level it needs to be at, yes, though I think you
may be intending to be ironic. It needs to be put above the ticket
machines (or before you reach them) in tube stations to prevent the 4
quid rip-off occurring, and in several languages.

Next, you need to make it easier to obtain an Oyster by having it
sold
from several machines pre-credited, rather than having to queue for
ages at the ticket office. (Note: many tourists will want to avoid
the
ticket office as the language barrier may be an issue, let alone the
invariably long queue).

Neil
No I wasn't being ironic. Just trying to keep it very simple, and
ignore the things that probably won't affect tourists in the first
place. I was just thinking that something about getting to Heathrow
and
Camden Town costing more should be in there, since those are the only
tourist destination outside of zone 1 that I think people might go to.

Greenwich. Which is likely to be accessed by rail. Oops...

I would direct tourists via the DLR to Greenwich - Cutty Sark DLR is
closer to the tourist attractions and the DLR is much more
tourist-friendly than trains from London Bridge or Charing Cross.


There must be loads of tourist destinations outside of Zone 1. Crystal
Palace, Hampton Court ... Also, when PAYG starts being accepted on
SWT, how will tourists touch out on their way to Windsor? What will
their extension ticket cost?

And how will Oyster do network card (or any other railcard)
discounts.

tim

tim(yet another new home) wrote:

And how will Oyster do network card (or any other railcard)
discounts.

I would expect that it won't. What we're most likely to see, I reckon,
is a German-style joint tariff in which TfL sets fares and "national
rail" type offers won't be valid.

Neil

sweek wrote:
About those problems in the Netherlands.

I think they reverted the system to the old system where you can buy a
train ticket on the train, if you have a good reason for it anyway.
That means that if you're a foreigner and can't use the ticket machines
nor is there any ticket office (open), you can get on the train and buy
it from the conductor.
It is ridiculous however that even in the new machines that are being
installed just now, you still can't use credit cards. i think Maestro
cards should work with most European debit cards though, but I'm not
sure of that.

It's also ridiculous that ticket machines *in an airport* won't accept
bills. I've had fun at Schiphol as well - for just a return ticket into
Amsterdam, I should have been able to use the machine with a 10- or
20-Euro note.

Stephen

When will these fares be made final?

In message , Peter Frimberley
wrote:

On 12 Sep 2006 09:29:06 -0700, "Neil Williams"
wrote:

??? No they're not. Paris, Stockholm, Budapest, New York, Sydney,
Singapore, Hong Kong, Bangkok- the metro systems in these and many
many other cities - in fact I'd go so far as to say most cities of the
world - have barriers.

Brussels and Berlin don't have barriers.

I'd put money on very few foreign travellers managing to get to London
without ever having seen a barrier on a metro system.

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