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Fares changes for 2007
I'm sure this was splashed and hyped all over the Standard/free whatever
as usual, but the devil (or not) is in the detail... http://www.london.gov.uk/view_press_...releaseid=9169 The key points: Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except: -- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) -- daily caps (still £0.50 below paper travelcards, but travelcards are up by an average of RPI+2%) Cash fares go up significantly: -- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 -- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards Season tickets go up by 50p to £14 for weekly bus passes, and around RPI + 2% for Travelcards (as mentioned above). New: - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) - TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way for an easy PAYG rollout -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Fares changes for 2007
WoW...Those are quite some increases....Particularly the 33% Bus Cash
Fare..... Its all well and good to talk of it as an incentive to promote Off Bus Ticketing BUT when the Travelcard increases by RPI PLUS 2% one starts to think....Hmmmmmm who will be gaining most from this....and the Travelling Public aint among them. Perhaps its to underline Peter Hendy`s dire warnings to other UK Cities interested in emulating Londons supposed success at driving Public Transport Usage upwards...Mr H DID say "If U aint prepared to Fund it,then don`t do it" (or words to that effect). Oh well...the Retail Motor Industry obviously has better lobbyists.... : ) |
Fares changes for 2007
Dave Arquati wrote:
-- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 Now that really is taking the ****. Why don't they just abolish cash fares if that's what they want to do? It's nothing but an underhand and dishonest tourist tax. (Yes, I do have an Oyster card. And a Strippenkaart (that I'm using a bit more often of late :) ), and (somewhere) a Singapore EZ-Link; I won't be paying these rip-off fares. Regardless of this, it doesn't stop me believing that they are inappropriate, and that Ken/TfL need a kick over them). - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster I'm not convinced by this, nor by the free bus fares. Why shouldn't teenagers pay (or have paid) their own way? In most of mainland Europe they'd be paying full adult fare by age 12. - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) - TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way for an easy PAYG rollout Both not surprising, and probably necessary[1], though for the former they will *have* to get their machine network and staff up to scratch and have a way to "back out" of an Oyster transaction more easily, e.g. if you go through the barriers then find there's no service. The latter happened to me at Richmond, where there was no LUL due to lightning damage so SWT were (so said the staff) passing pax including Oyster Pre-Pay. [1] Maybe a better option would be to charge the maximum fare that could have been incurred by passing through the barriers at which you touched in; that would be fairer, IMO, and it's what Singapore does. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Dave Arquati wrote:
Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except: -- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) OK, so that's an extra £1 a week for me then. I can't help wondering, what's the reasoning behind abolishing off-peak fares on the busses? -- Rob |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote: Dave Arquati wrote: -- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 Now that really is taking the ****. Why don't they just abolish cash fares if that's what they want to do? It's nothing but an underhand and dishonest tourist tax. (Yes, I do have an Oyster card. And a Strippenkaart (that I'm using a bit more often of late :) ), and (somewhere) a Singapore EZ-Link; I won't be paying these rip-off fares. Regardless of this, it doesn't stop me believing that they are inappropriate, and that Ken/TfL need a kick over them). - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster I'm not convinced by this, nor by the free bus fares. Why shouldn't teenagers pay (or have paid) their own way? In most of mainland Europe they'd be paying full adult fare by age 12. - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) - TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way for an easy PAYG rollout Both not surprising, and probably necessary[1], though for the former they will *have* to get their machine network and staff up to scratch and have a way to "back out" of an Oyster transaction more easily, e.g. if you go through the barriers then find there's no service. The latter happened to me at Richmond, where there was no LUL due to lightning damage so SWT were (so said the staff) passing pax including Oyster Pre-Pay. [1] Maybe a better option would be to charge the maximum fare that could have been incurred by passing through the barriers at which you touched in; that would be fairer, IMO, and it's what Singapore does. Neil I am absolutely staggered by this increase. Last year it double from £1.40 to £3, now it is going to £4. A 167% increase in a little over a year. A little over 10 years ago it was £1, so 400% in just over 10 years. Yes, great if you have Oyster. Why don't they just put signs up at Heathrow and on the boundary of London saying **** off if you are a low life visitor we don't want you in London. Kevin |
Fares changes for 2007
Kev wrote:
Yes, great if you have Oyster. Why don't they just put signs up at Heathrow and on the boundary of London saying **** off if you are a low life visitor we don't want you in London. Quite. If Ken wants to implement a tourist tax, that's what he should do. Such a thing would be added to hotel bills and fully transparent, just like it is here in the Hague where I'm staying at the moment (it's about EUR 2 a night). If, OTOH, he wants to encourage Oyster use, he could do so in other, better ways. Here's a suggestion. 1. Develop and deploy an Oyster vending machine, that could sell unregistered Oyster cards for gbp5 with 2 quid credit (for a couple of singles) or gbp10 with 7 quid credit. These should also accept cards back to return the deposit, but in the interim a standard vending machine to issue would be a start. These should be everywhere, all over London; in hotels, in railway stations, in buses (maybe), in tube stations etc. The same packs should be available for sale in every shop. Make it easy, and make it obvious. The same thing is done with the Dutch Strippenkaart. Make it that easy, and people won't *want* to pay on the bus/train. 2. If (1) is a success, remove paper ticketing completely. There would be no need for it. The proposals, as they are, are confused, will cause confusion and are a blatent rip-off and tourist tax. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Kev wrote:
I am absolutely staggered by this increase. Last year it double from £1.40 to £3, now it is going to £4. A 167% increase in a little over a year. A little over 10 years ago it was £1, so 400% in just over 10 years. Yes, great if you have Oyster. Why don't they just put signs up at Heathrow and on the boundary of London saying **** off if you are a low life visitor we don't want you in London. Kevin Well you should simply get an Oyster, even as a tourist. They're three pounds apparently, but when I arrived in London with some friends we all asked for weekly 1-2's and all got Oyster automatically, without paying the extra charge. |
Fares changes for 2007
Rob Hamadi wrote:
OK, so that's an extra £1 a week for me then. I can't help wondering, what's the reasoning behind abolishing off-peak fares on the busses? I thought a peak fare was higher on Oyster (1.50?) Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
sweek wrote:
Well you should simply get an Oyster, even as a tourist. It's all very well to say that, but walking into a Tube station or joining a bus it is *not* obvious. It is therefore a dishonest tourist tax. Why can't I buy a pre-credited Oyster from a machine, for example? Ticket office queues are usually long, and most people won't find it natural to buy a single ticket from a ticket office anyway - most European metros don't even *have* ticket offices. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
Rob Hamadi wrote: OK, so that's an extra £1 a week for me then. I can't help wondering, what's the reasoning behind abolishing off-peak fares on the busses? I thought a peak fare was higher on Oyster (1.50?) Nope. ATM it's £1 peak, 80p off peak. So my travel to work comes to £1.80 a day, cheaper than a period travelcard. This'll presumably take it to £2.00, assuming no change in the peak fare. Probably still cheaper than a travelcard. -- Rob |
Fares changes for 2007
Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except:
-- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) Ouch, 25% fare increase. Cash fares go up significantly: -- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 -- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards Surely it is about time they announced a date when cash fares will be abolished, at least for buses, so at least the punitive increases would make more sense. - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives, especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised? It is bad enough that school kids bundle onto buses for a two or three stop journey instead of a five minute walk, preventing other passengers boarding, but free fares encourages them to bundle on the rear doors as well. If they wish to encourage the use of public transport by children then fine, but how about limiting it to evenings, weekends and school holidays instead so it is encouraging leisure use? - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are supposed to touch in and out. For example at Farringdon the correct procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on the other. All the signs do is tell PAYG users to touch the validators, not under what circumstances and whether they need to look for one. G. |
Fares changes for 2007
Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except:
-- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) OK, so that's an extra £1 a week for me then. I can't help wondering, what's the reasoning behind abolishing off-peak fares on the busses? Probably so there is a simple marketing message of £1 oyster or £2 cash. i.e double the price. It is not as effective a message if there is an element of complexity. |
Fares changes for 2007
Graham J wrote: Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except: -- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) Ouch, 25% fare increase. Cash fares go up significantly: -- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 -- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards Surely it is about time they announced a date when cash fares will be abolished, at least for buses, so at least the punitive increases would make more sense. - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives, especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised? It is bad enough that school kids bundle onto buses for a two or three stop journey instead of a five minute walk, preventing other passengers boarding, but free fares encourages them to bundle on the rear doors as well. If they wish to encourage the use of public transport by children then fine, but how about limiting it to evenings, weekends and school holidays instead so it is encouraging leisure use? - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are supposed to touch in and out. For example at Farringdon the correct procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on the other. All the signs do is tell PAYG users to touch the validators, not under what circumstances and whether they need to look for one. G. They should abolish that £3 Oyster deposit for prepay. And should start selling them in vending machines as suggested. And out them into corner shops and supermarkets. For example. I've got some relatives coming down next week. We are planning on travelling on the choob. They probably come down once a year. It's a pain queuing up and paying £3 deposit. Would be much easier if we could just get them from a machine free when you put a tenner on. As for free/cheap fares for kids. The buses have been ruined by kids. I used to use the bus regularly. Now I cant get on them They got about two stops. OR just get on for fun. Or have to tolerate loud and abusive kids for most of my journey. They should pay their way just like anyone else. Reduced rates are fine. But totally free is insane. |
Fares changes for 2007
Kev wrote:
I am absolutely staggered by this increase. Last year it double from £1.40 to £3, now it is going to £4. A 167% increase in a little over a year. A little over 10 years ago it was £1, so 400% in just over 10 years. £1.40 to £4.00 is a rise of 185%, not 167% £1.00 to £4.00 is a rise of 300%, not 400%. -- Bob |
Fares changes for 2007
On 12 Sep 2006 02:13:02 -0700, "Neil Williams"
wrote: sweek wrote: Well you should simply get an Oyster, even as a tourist. It's all very well to say that, but walking into a Tube station or joining a bus it is *not* obvious. Sure it is. There's posters all over the network comparing the cash and Oyster PAYG fares. -- James Farrar . @gmail.com |
Fares changes for 2007
James Farrar wrote:
Sure it is. There's posters all over the network comparing the cash and Oyster PAYG fares. There might be. But, if you've never heard of Oyster? Likely answer is that you'll tune out. If the Mayor wants to go Oyster-only, fine, I have no issue with that. There are, I believe, other cities where public transport is pre-paid only, with no cash accepted at stations or on buses. However, there needs to be a simple, step-by-step set of instructions, and it needs to be more accessible. Everyone in this NG knows what Oyster is, how to get one, what it costs etc, thus if anyone on this NG pays one of these rip-off fares they have only themselves to blame. You cannot, however, apply this argument to a non- or poor-English-speaking tourist, or visitor to London who doesn't frequent big cities and their transport systems, who would just go to the ticket machine and prod the likely looking button. You also can't apply this to purchasers of out-boundary through tickets on LUL and cross-London tickets, which I believe are also indirectly being hit by these punitive fares. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
Londoncityslicker wrote:
They should abolish that £3 Oyster deposit for prepay. I don't think that's a problem, indeed it's probably a good thing on environmental and waste terms to prevent people throwing the things on the floor. Singapore even charges a deposit on its single tickets, which are issued on an Oyster-like card. What there needs to be is a way to buy them from vending machines everywhere, including supermarkets, hotels etc, and to trade them in at the ticket machine at a station or elsewhere to get the deposit back. The technology exists; Singapore already uses it. For sales, *any* sweet machine would do - an Oyster in a small envelope would fit fine. And should start selling them in vending machines as suggested. And out them into corner shops and supermarkets. Yep. They should be on sale at the tills, pre-credited, with the mobile top-ups and stamps, in every supermarket within the Zones. There is absolutely no reason why not. As for free/cheap fares for kids. The buses have been ruined by kids. I used to use the bus regularly. Now I cant get on them They got about two stops. OR just get on for fun. Or have to tolerate loud and abusive kids for most of my journey. They should pay their way just like anyone else. Reduced rates are fine. But totally free is insane. Agreed. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 09:36:25 GMT, Graham J wrote:
Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except: -- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) Ouch, 25% fare increase. Indeed. Especially the way they spin it as being a 2/3 discount on what it would have been if they hadn't run everything so brilliantly. - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives, especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised? Could this be to do with the introduction of a policy a few years ago that bus drivers must not leave a child stranded? This meant that any child could get a free bus ride just by pretending to have no money. Perhaps they are just formalising it so that all children can travel for free, not just the dishonest ones. Besides, at least they'll learn to use public transport, rather than being taxi'd everywhere by mummy and daddy until they reach 17, when they graduate to going everywhere in their own car. - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are supposed to touch in and out. And if they give Tube ticket offices more power to resolve unresolved joruneys, and if the Oyster helpline will do so for unregistered cards (if these changes haven't been made already). For example at Farringdon the correct procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on the other. Seriously? I always just change over without touching any readers at all, just like changing between Tube lines, and it works fine. Incidentally, acceptance of PAYG at the barriers at London Bridge STILL hasn't been fixed. Worse, the barrier staff seem to have been trained to tell you that it isn't valid, only letting you through if you insist it is. The following exchange is typical: Me: [walks up to side gate with Oyster card] Him: [points to Oyster reader on adjacent ticket gate. I assume he needs to see the error code] Me: [touches card on reader; as usual, it is rejected] Him: "Your Travelcard has expired." [points to excess fares window] Me: "I'm using pre-pay." Him: "It's not valid." [still pointing] "You need to buy a ticket." Me: "It is valid, on Thameslink." Him: "No it isn't." Me: "Yes it is. You're standing next to a poster that says it is." Him: "Where have you come from?" Me: "Farringdon." Him: [lets me out through the gate] I've been through a similar routine every time I've passed through (3 times in total) over the past couple of months, so I'm pretty sure it's deliberate. (Incidentally, I do touch in/out on the platform validator as well, and it does always charge the correct fare with no unresolved journeys.) |
Fares changes for 2007
On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 21:01:17 +0100, Dave Arquati wrote:
- TOCs will introduce zonal fares in January 2007, thus paving the way for an easy PAYG rollout This point seems to be the most intruiging, and the biggest shake-up. It seems that the same fares will apply across all TOCs. I suppose this means that fares on some routes will go up and on other routes will go down. What will happen to CDRs and Railcard discounts? Will the changes spread outside the zones, or could it be cheaper to buy a return from the first station outside the zones if travelling from Zone 6 to Zone 1? How will fares from NR to Tube stations be calculated? What about if the NR journey starts outside the zones? No mention of the PAYG trials on Southern, either - has that fallen by the wayside? |
Fares changes for 2007
Kev wrote:
Why don't they just put signs up at Heathrow and on the boundary of London saying **** off if you are a low life visitor we don't want you in London. Does seem odd, especially if TfL said on London Tonight that the vast majority of people now use Oyster (presumably tourists mostly buy travelcards) anyway. If that's the case, how are they able to say the extra money will be reinvested in public transport? What extra money?! It seems that the higher price we already pay is enough, so what's the justification for a further £1 increase? Jonathan |
Fares changes for 2007
Graham J wrote: Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except: -- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) Ouch, 25% fare increase. Cash fares go up significantly: -- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 -- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards Surely it is about time they announced a date when cash fares will be abolished, at least for buses, so at least the punitive increases would make more sense. - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives, especially free bus fares. I agree wholeheartedly What is wrong with learning to pay your way in life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised? Precisely so. It is bad enough that school kids bundle onto buses for a two or three stop journey instead of a five minute walk, preventing other passengers boarding, but free fares encourages them to bundle on the rear doors as well. If they wish to encourage the use of public transport by children then fine, but how about limiting it to evenings, weekends and school holidays instead so it is encouraging leisure use? Again, very well put. - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) Is there a penalty for not "touching in" etc. on a bus or train station where one has a fully pre-paid weekly travelcard on one's Oyster Card? Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are supposed to touch in and out. For example at Farringdon the correct procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on the other. All the signs do is tell PAYG users to touch the validators, not under what circumstances and whether they need to look for one. G. Marc. |
Fares changes for 2007
Londoncityslicker wrote: Graham J wrote: Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except: -- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) Ouch, 25% fare increase. Cash fares go up significantly: -- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 -- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards Surely it is about time they announced a date when cash fares will be abolished, at least for buses, so at least the punitive increases would make more sense. - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives, especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised? It is bad enough that school kids bundle onto buses for a two or three stop journey instead of a five minute walk, preventing other passengers boarding, but free fares encourages them to bundle on the rear doors as well. If they wish to encourage the use of public transport by children then fine, but how about limiting it to evenings, weekends and school holidays instead so it is encouraging leisure use? - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are supposed to touch in and out. For example at Farringdon the correct procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on the other. All the signs do is tell PAYG users to touch the validators, not under what circumstances and whether they need to look for one. G. They should abolish that £3 Oyster deposit for prepay. For the first time, I obtained an Oyster card today, because I wanted a 1-week Zone 1 and 2 Travelcard. It cost me £22.20 - no £3 deposit was charged. Was this a mistake? And should start selling them in vending machines as suggested. And out them into corner shops and supermarkets. I got mine in my local sub post office today. For example. I've got some relatives coming down next week. We are planning on travelling on the choob. They probably come down once a year. It's a pain queuing up and paying £3 deposit. Would be much easier if we could just get them from a machine free when you put a tenner on. As for free/cheap fares for kids. The buses have been ruined by kids. I used to use the bus regularly. Now I cant get on them They got about two stops. OR just get on for fun. Or have to tolerate loud and abusive kids for most of my journey. They should pay their way just like anyone else. Reduced rates are fine. But totally free is insane. |
Fares changes for 2007
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Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
Everyone in this NG knows what Oyster is, how to get one, what it costs etc, thus if anyone on this NG pays one of these rip-off fares they have only themselves to blame. You cannot, however, apply this argument to a non- or poor-English-speaking tourist, or visitor to London who doesn't frequent big cities and their transport systems, who would just go to the ticket machine and prod the likely looking button. The first point of contact for TfL really ought to be the website. However like most other websites put together by British businesses and organisations it assumes that everyone accross the world reads English. Even the visitlondon.com site fails to display those nice little flags leading you on to pages in different languages. Fortuneately the situation improves slightly once the tourist gets to London. TfL produce flyers in foreign languages for example, I'm not sure if they promote Oyster as a benefit to tourists. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Fares changes for 2007
Well, at least transport in London is still THE MOST!
THE MOST expensive in Europe and THE MOST outdated in Europe :-S |
Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote: wrote: I got mine in my local sub post office today. Not enough. If they're to replace cash fares (which they effectively are) they need to be on sale just about everywhere, especially relating to buses. Just about every supermarket and corner shop sells mobile phone top-up vouchers. They should also sell pre-credited Oysters. Neil I am all for this. In the end I think it will all just take a bit of time. You can't say TfL aren't promoting the Oyster card everywhere. They could maybe do a bit campaign aimed at tourists, though. I have seen tourists who were completely confused by the card they got when they asked for a weekly pass, trying to somehow insert the oyster card in the travel card slot. O, and make them work on all NR services obviously, but it looks like we're getting there. |
Fares changes for 2007
Phil Richards wrote:
The first point of contact for TfL really ought to be the website. Really? I think you're again thinking like a user of this NG (and a travel professional, as I recall you being - sorry if I recall wrongly). The first point of contact for many will be the bus stop/driver or the Tube station. What Oyster is, where to get one from (at all times of day) and costs should be easily available to someone at one of those points. At present, it isn't; there is information there, but it's bitty and doesn't fit together for someone without background knowledge. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
sweek wrote:
In the end I think it will all just take a bit of time. Yep. Until that time has been taken, it is not reasonable to impose penalties (and that's what a 4 quid zone 1 single is) for not using Oyster. I'm fine with it being cheaper with Oyster, but this is clearly a punitive penalty fare. For some shorter journeys, it will now be cheaper to travel by taxi if paying by cash up-front. That's not right. You can't say TfL aren't promoting the Oyster card everywhere. They're promoting it in a way that makes sense to people that understand London transport. If it is to be the only (reasonable) way of paying for travel, that's not good enough. They could maybe do a bit campaign aimed at tourists, though. I have seen tourists who were completely confused by the card they got when they asked for a weekly pass, trying to somehow insert the oyster card in the travel card slot. Which is entirely reasonable; the "swipe" pictogram only means something to those familiar with it. A picture of the respective tickets on the barrier might help more. Remember that barriers are, in the first place, foreign to much of Europe, let alone further afield. Neil |
Fares changes for 2007
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Fares changes for 2007
Neil Williams wrote:
Phil Richards wrote: The first point of contact for TfL really ought to be the website. Really? I think you're again thinking like a user of this NG (and a travel professional, as I recall you being - sorry if I recall wrongly). I was thinking about the number of visitors coming to London to do some research on-line before arriving. Whilst the numbers using this (& other NG's) are small, the www is by far the most accessible tool for gathering together the facts needed for a holiday or visit. And certainly working in the travel profession, it's nice to be able to advise potential travellers to mainland Europe websites for say local transport in capital cities that have the info in English. Sad to say someone in France with little knowledge of English may be completely put off coming to London through the lack of info in French on *official* websites. The first point of contact for many will be the bus stop/driver or the Tube station. What Oyster is, where to get one from (at all times of day) and costs should be easily available to someone at one of those points. At present, it isn't; there is information there, but it's bitty and doesn't fit together for someone without background knowledge. The information is there in printed format at tube stations and the (few) travel information desks scattered across the capital. I think you'll find plenty of information on how much it costs with Oyster vs cash albeit not spelled out in different languages. Of course one still needs to get their head around the maze of zones etc, which of course have been around much longer than Oyster and of course are the backbone of most other public transport systems in large cities. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Fares changes for 2007
On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 17:13:46 +0100, Phil Richards
wrote: Neil Williams wrote: Everyone in this NG knows what Oyster is, how to get one, what it costs etc, thus if anyone on this NG pays one of these rip-off fares they have only themselves to blame. You cannot, however, apply this argument to a non- or poor-English-speaking tourist, or visitor to London who doesn't frequent big cities and their transport systems, who would just go to the ticket machine and prod the likely looking button. The first point of contact for TfL really ought to be the website. I'm sure an awful lot of people - like, say, my mum when she comes down from oop north - would consider a bus driver to be the obvious point of contact. Why find out about the interweb when you can ask someone, and surely bus drivers will sell you the best ticket...? However like most other websites put together by British businesses and organisations it assumes that everyone accross the world reads English. Even the visitlondon.com site fails to display those nice little flags leading you on to pages in different languages. But what flag represents English? (con't p94 of various web design newsgroups). I've come across a website which has a Swiss flag as a language option - great, you then have to guess which of 4 languages it might lead to! The name of the langauge, in that langauge, is better eg * English, Nederlands, Deutsch, tlhIngan Hol (A site with "English version" written in Japanese isn't very helpful) Fortuneately the situation improves slightly once the tourist gets to London. TfL produce flyers in foreign languages for example, I'm not sure if they promote Oyster as a benefit to tourists. VisitBritain do: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=880 -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Fares changes for 2007
Arthur Figgis wrote:
I'm sure an awful lot of people - like, say, my mum when she comes down from oop north - would consider a bus driver to be the obvious point of contact. Why find out about the interweb when you can ask someone, and surely bus drivers will sell you the best ticket...? Maybe oop north the bus drivers have all the time in the world to discuss the best ticket option, that's not the situation in London or most other big cities. In fact often it's not possible to get multiple journey passes off the driver, all they are able to sell is single (sometimes return) tickets. VisitBritain do: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/press-cent...t.asp?prID=880 Well certainly no mention about Oyster on the (North American) pages of the Visit Britain site. All they seem to list is 3 & 7 day travel cards: http://www.visitbritaindirect.com/en...ail.aspx?ID=67 -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Fares changes for 2007
Phil Richards wrote:
Even the visitlondon.com site fails to display those nice little flags leading you on to pages in different languages. Do we know for a fact that the site doesn't detect your country automatically and present the correct language, or at least the option? I'm not saying it does, but let's not be too quick to slag them off. A lot of sites don't use flags anymore, as they can present an alternative site for foreign access. Of course, it would be useful for in the UK too, for tourists in Internet Cafes and the like. Maybe I'm giving them too much credit. :) Jonathan |
Fares changes for 2007
Graham J wrote: Almost all Oyster fares remain the same except: -- off-peak bus journeys (from £0.80 to £1.00) Ouch, 25% fare increase. Cash fares go up significantly: -- via Zone 1 singles from £3 to £4 (!) -- bus singles from £1.50 to £2 -- but paper daily bus passes are frozen, as are non-Z1 travelcards Surely it is about time they announced a date when cash fares will be abolished, at least for buses, so at least the punitive increases would make more sense. - Under-16s get a 50p Tube single or £1 daily cap on Oyster How nice for them. I am one of those unconvinced by all these incentives, especially free bus fares. What is wrong with learning to pay your way in life at an early age instead of learning to be subsidised? It is bad enough that school kids bundle onto buses for a two or three stop journey instead of a five minute walk, preventing other passengers boarding, but free fares encourages them to bundle on the rear doors as well. If they wish to encourage the use of public transport by children then fine, but how about limiting it to evenings, weekends and school holidays instead so it is encouraging leisure use? - £4 penalty charge to be introduced on Oyster PAYG for those who do not touch in and out (from November this year) Fine, as long as they make an effort to explain exactly where you are supposed to touch in and out. For example at Farringdon the correct procedure, verified with TfL, when changing from London Underground to National Rail and vice versa is to touch out on one platform and touch in on the other. All the signs do is tell PAYG users to touch the validators, not under what circumstances and whether they need to look for one. It is absolutely immoral to introduce even the £3 penalty fare, let alone £4, before the means of avoiding it are fully available. If you have a period paper travelcard from NR, plus a bit of PAYG on your Oyster for when you go beyond your Underground zones, you can't touch in or out without leaving the train, going up the escalator, touching in/out, going back down and waiting for another train. A £3 fine for finding that ludicrously inconvenient is not justifiable. Given that trains generally know where they are now, why not have readers in trains, as in buses, that you can touch as you leave your paper travelcard zone? No one on pure PAYG would be able to get away with touching it as they saw the inspector coming, because they'd have had to get into a station somehow. People who used Oyster to get in would already have touched at the gate. People with paper travelcards would have to touch in the train at some point or else get caught by the gates when leaving their destination station. The only issue then is the range of possible extension fares (ie any benefit to touching just before getting off), but I think that the range of possible fares is limited, since it would be either Zone 1 or non-Zone 1. |
Fares changes for 2007
In message , Phil Richards
writes I was thinking about the number of visitors coming to London to do some research on-line before arriving. Right, as someone who's a regular here and obviously has a lot of experience (and a vested interest) in London as a tourist destination, I'll wade in. firstly, I reckon Oyster is brilliant. Its PAYG incarnation fits my needs pretty much perfectly, apart from the National Rail anomaly which it seems is on the way to being fixed. Secondly, I applaud the current TfL policy of vigorously promoting Oyster use by making big differences between on vehicle or at station cash fares and those you can get from Oyster. A lot of other organisations would pussy-foot around giving 10% savings or something. TfL, or Ken if you like, has decided to go the whole hog with this and make a BIG distinction. Again, I reckon its good in principle. Now to the down side of all this. It is difficult, VERY difficult to explain PAYG and Oyster to causal visitors. Paper Travelcards and the savings from them are no problem and people usually have something similar "at home". But the concept of stored value tickets and specifically daily capping is so alien to people as to be not worthwhile mentioning. I said in a posting last year that people are remarkably ill-at-ease using public transport in London sometimes. We a few weeks ago I had a large group of people from the North of England who, during their time with me had effectively a full day to explore London. They were staying in Zone 1 and - almost as an experiment - I tried a simplified explanation of Oyster PAYG on the way down. I really wished I hadn't. Confusion reigned supreme and most of them simply couldn't get their heads around it all. The more I tried to explain it, the worse it became as they muddled up period Travelcards, paper Travelcards, the GBP3 deposit and daily capping. All this to save people 50p. I don't think I'll do it again; I'll just send people off to buy a paper Travelcard and save myself the ulcer! :-) (My coach driver thought I was mad to have tried and maybe he was right.) The deposit #/daily capping concepts are the hardest to explain. I've tried an analogy with Phonecards but it didn't seem to work. One more observation, some of my people often have cause to make just one or possibly two short journeys in Zone 1 (maybe Aldwych to Oxford Circus or Oxford Circus to Westminster or something like that. What they therefore want is to go to a ticket machine or a bus driver and buy a single ticket. Once its beyond that, then they simply head for a taxi. Telling them that it will cost GBP4 each will simply stop such journeys happening. Part of me sees the logic of the new system and supports encouraging Oyster use, it really does. But I know I'll be on the sharp end when I give people the Bad News. (Was it the Greeks who used to execute the bearers of bad tidings?) PS The vending machine thing won't work with these people either. It would be just as hard to explain. PPS I know that I tend to have a slightly skewed view of London visitors. As a general rule, if they're using a guide they'll be less confident on their own than average. PPPS Maybe I'm just bad at explaining things?! ;-) -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Fares changes for 2007
In message , Phil Richards
writes Maybe oop north the bus drivers have all the time in the world to discuss the best ticket option, Have you ever travelled by bus in Newcastle or Leeds (or Birmingham, depending on your definition of "north", Phil?! :-)) Well certainly no mention about Oyster on the (North American) pages of the Visit Britain site. All they seem to list is 3 & 7 day travel cards: http://www.visitbritaindirect.com/en...ail.aspx?ID=67 That's probably an oversight (these things can take a very long time to filter through" to tourist guide book/www level. But I could be generous and put it down to Keeping it Simple! People often like that. I have some friends who've just come back from Vienna where they bought some sort of pass for Museums and public transport. It probably worked out more expensive but they greatly valued the convenience of just travelling as they pleased without having to work out the intricacies or otherwise of the Vienna fare system. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Fares changes for 2007
Bob Wood wrote:
Kev wrote: I am absolutely staggered by this increase. Last year it double from £1.40 to £3, now it is going to £4. A 167% increase in a little over a year. A little over 10 years ago it was £1, so 400% in just over 10 years. £1.40 to £4.00 is a rise of 185%, not 167% £1.00 to £4.00 is a rise of 300%, not 400%. I don't recall it being £1.40 - last year it was £2.00 cash AFAIK. In real terms these rises will be somewhat less; certainly on buses, fares have barely risen at all in real terms over the last six years. -- Dave Arquati Imperial College, SW7 www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Fares changes for 2007
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Fares changes for 2007
Arthur Figgis wrote: I'm sure an awful lot of people - like, say, my mum when she comes down from oop north - would consider a bus driver to be the obvious point of contact. Why find out about the interweb when you can ask someone, and surely bus drivers will sell you the best ticket...? maybe so the rest of us are not stuck on the bus waiting while your mum goes through all the options with the bus driver about where she is going and what ticket she should get? |
Fares changes for 2007
Yet still the most popular with visitors...! It's not like they have a choice :-) |
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