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Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
For the second time now I've had a problem with Oyster PAYG on T4L
buses. Today I 'touched in' and the 'touch' registered with the usual beep. But then the bus driver said that it hadn't registered and that I had to 'touch' again - I did and it beeped a longer beep and he said that the card was invalid. He then made me pay £1.50 for a ticket. When I checked at Paddington Underground Oyster top-up machine the 'touch in' HAD`registered. So I got charged TWICE for the same journey. Nice scam for T4L. Thanks Ken. Great system. CJB. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
wrote in message
oups.com... For the second time now I've had a problem with Oyster PAYG on T4L buses. Today I 'touched in' and the 'touch' registered with the usual beep. But then the bus driver said that it hadn't registered and that I had to 'touch' again - I did and it beeped a longer beep and he said that the card was invalid. He then made me pay £1.50 for a ticket. When I checked at Paddington Underground Oyster top-up machine the 'touch in' HAD`registered. So I got charged TWICE for the same journey. Nice scam for T4L. Thanks Ken. Great system. CJB. Remember the Oyster reader is illogical as it bleeps for both success and failure (although it's a slightly different noise for each, and the small LED lights either green or orange) What did the LCD display say? It's the only way to tell if you experience what you describe. If you attempt to touch your oyster the second time around (or more than twice) it will say "Passback attempted". i.e. it thinks you tried to pass your oyster back to someone behind you and it's being used twice. If it says that, you know it actually read properly first time around. I've never heard of anyone in your situation, as it's always clear from the reader what the error is! |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Neil Watson wrote: wrote in message oups.com... For the second time now I've had a problem with Oyster PAYG on T4L buses. Today I 'touched in' and the 'touch' registered with the usual beep. But then the bus driver said that it hadn't registered and that I had to 'touch' again - I did and it beeped a longer beep and he said that the card was invalid. He then made me pay £1.50 for a ticket. When I checked at Paddington Underground Oyster top-up machine the 'touch in' HAD`registered. So I got charged TWICE for the same journey. Nice scam for T4L. Thanks Ken. Great system. CJB. Remember the Oyster reader is illogical as it bleeps for both success and failure (although it's a slightly different noise for each, and the small LED lights either green or orange) What did the LCD display say? It's the only way to tell if you experience what you describe. If you attempt to touch your oyster the second time around (or more than twice) it will say "Passback attempted". i.e. it thinks you tried to pass your oyster back to someone behind you and it's being used twice. If it says that, you know it actually read properly first time around. I've never heard of anyone in your situation, as it's always clear from the reader what the error is! I thought that someone else was allowed to use your PAYG Oyster when you weren't using it (unlike a travelcard)? Although, how you could have stopped using it (ie finished your bus journey) in those few seconds would take a bit of explaining. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
"MIG" wrote in message
oups.com... I thought that someone else was allowed to use your PAYG Oyster when you weren't using it (unlike a travelcard)? Although, how you could have stopped using it (ie finished your bus journey) in those few seconds would take a bit of explaining. The reader flags up a repeat use attempt "passback" on the same journey only. Otherwise all sorts of problems would ensue! |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Neil Watson wrote: "MIG" wrote in message oups.com... I thought that someone else was allowed to use your PAYG Oyster when you weren't using it (unlike a travelcard)? Although, how you could have stopped using it (ie finished your bus journey) in those few seconds would take a bit of explaining. The reader flags up a repeat use attempt "passback" on the same journey only. Otherwise all sorts of problems would ensue! True, but on a bus you only touch the once, so there has to be some assumption of duration. Unlike with a travelcard, there wouldn't be much to be gained by passback if both touches were charged. There's the possibility of sharing the cap, but unless they've changed the wording, you can already take your PAYG to the cap limit and then give it to someone else to use for free for the rest of the day. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
On 18 Sep 2006 03:52:32 -0700, "MIG"
wrote: Neil Watson wrote: wrote in message oups.com... For the second time now I've had a problem with Oyster PAYG on T4L buses. Today I 'touched in' and the 'touch' registered with the usual beep. But then the bus driver said that it hadn't registered and that I had to 'touch' again - I did and it beeped a longer beep and he said that the card was invalid. He then made me pay £1.50 for a ticket. When I checked at Paddington Underground Oyster top-up machine the 'touch in' HAD`registered. So I got charged TWICE for the same journey. Nice scam for T4L. Thanks Ken. Great system. CJB. Remember the Oyster reader is illogical as it bleeps for both success and failure (although it's a slightly different noise for each, and the small LED lights either green or orange) What did the LCD display say? It's the only way to tell if you experience what you describe. If you attempt to touch your oyster the second time around (or more than twice) it will say "Passback attempted". i.e. it thinks you tried to pass your oyster back to someone behind you and it's being used twice. If it says that, you know it actually read properly first time around. I've never heard of anyone in your situation, as it's always clear from the reader what the error is! I thought that someone else was allowed to use your PAYG Oyster when you weren't using it (unlike a travelcard)? You have the answer in your own response - "when you weren't using it". If you just got on the bus, or just entered the tube system, you are "using it" until you get off or exit. You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Peter Frimberley wrote: On 18 Sep 2006 03:52:32 -0700, "MIG" wrote: Neil Watson wrote: wrote in message oups.com... For the second time now I've had a problem with Oyster PAYG on T4L buses. Today I 'touched in' and the 'touch' registered with the usual beep. But then the bus driver said that it hadn't registered and that I had to 'touch' again - I did and it beeped a longer beep and he said that the card was invalid. He then made me pay £1.50 for a ticket. When I checked at Paddington Underground Oyster top-up machine the 'touch in' HAD`registered. So I got charged TWICE for the same journey. Nice scam for T4L. Thanks Ken. Great system. CJB. Remember the Oyster reader is illogical as it bleeps for both success and failure (although it's a slightly different noise for each, and the small LED lights either green or orange) What did the LCD display say? It's the only way to tell if you experience what you describe. If you attempt to touch your oyster the second time around (or more than twice) it will say "Passback attempted". i.e. it thinks you tried to pass your oyster back to someone behind you and it's being used twice. If it says that, you know it actually read properly first time around. I've never heard of anyone in your situation, as it's always clear from the reader what the error is! I thought that someone else was allowed to use your PAYG Oyster when you weren't using it (unlike a travelcard)? You have the answer in your own response - "when you weren't using it". If you just got on the bus, or just entered the tube system, you are "using it" until you get off or exit. You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. And the system should have some assumption built in about the minimum duration of a bus journey, but you you don't touch off a bus, so there is no definite time when you stop using it (and can pass it to someone else). |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
On 18 Sep 2006 04:41:42 -0700, "MIG"
wrote: Peter Frimberley wrote: On 18 Sep 2006 03:52:32 -0700, "MIG" wrote: Neil Watson wrote: wrote in message oups.com... For the second time now I've had a problem with Oyster PAYG on T4L buses. Today I 'touched in' and the 'touch' registered with the usual beep. But then the bus driver said that it hadn't registered and that I had to 'touch' again - I did and it beeped a longer beep and he said that the card was invalid. He then made me pay £1.50 for a ticket. When I checked at Paddington Underground Oyster top-up machine the 'touch in' HAD`registered. So I got charged TWICE for the same journey. Nice scam for T4L. Thanks Ken. Great system. CJB. Remember the Oyster reader is illogical as it bleeps for both success and failure (although it's a slightly different noise for each, and the small LED lights either green or orange) What did the LCD display say? It's the only way to tell if you experience what you describe. If you attempt to touch your oyster the second time around (or more than twice) it will say "Passback attempted". i.e. it thinks you tried to pass your oyster back to someone behind you and it's being used twice. If it says that, you know it actually read properly first time around. I've never heard of anyone in your situation, as it's always clear from the reader what the error is! I thought that someone else was allowed to use your PAYG Oyster when you weren't using it (unlike a travelcard)? You have the answer in your own response - "when you weren't using it". If you just got on the bus, or just entered the tube system, you are "using it" until you get off or exit. You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. And the system should have some assumption built in about the minimum duration of a bus journey, but you you don't touch off a bus, so there is no definite time when you stop using it (and can pass it to someone else). We don't know that it doesn't have such an assumption. It may be as little as a few minutes, just enough to prevent more than one person travelling on the same card. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Peter Frimberley ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying : You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. And the system should have some assumption built in about the minimum duration of a bus journey, but you you don't touch off a bus, so there is no definite time when you stop using it (and can pass it to someone else). We don't know that it doesn't have such an assumption. It may be as little as a few minutes, just enough to prevent more than one person travelling on the same card. If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
On 18 Sep 2006 12:35:39 GMT, Adrian wrote:
Peter Frimberley ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. And the system should have some assumption built in about the minimum duration of a bus journey, but you you don't touch off a bus, so there is no definite time when you stop using it (and can pass it to someone else). We don't know that it doesn't have such an assumption. It may be as little as a few minutes, just enough to prevent more than one person travelling on the same card. If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? Well it mucks up the prepay capping, or at least makes the calculation on whether a selection of journies have qualified for the cap that much more difficult. Not impossible, but definitely adds an extra degree of complexity. Of course two people using the same Oyster card at different time periods of the day also mucks up the prepay cap, but no more so than people sharing a paper one day travel card. Also what happens if two people get on the tube/bus together, but want to get off at different stations/stops. The card can only go with one of them. In theory it ought to be possible but in practice it probably causes more problems than it is worth, so they just disallow it altogether. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Adrian wrote in
. 244.170: If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? No. Many people can use the card, but only one at a time. Think about it. D A Stocks |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Adrian wrote: If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? At the least, why can't you buy paper tickets using PAYG - doesn't even have to affect the cap - just get a single ticket at the oyster fare or even oyster fare + 50p. Because now, when I'm travelling with a couple of other people from outside london I'm going to be advising them to get an oyster card at the ticket window, not a single ticket. For a Waterloo-Euston journey (most recent case I did) that's get two oyster cards at Waterloo and then return them for a refund of the credit and deposit at Euston. This is really going to slow down ticket sales. (If you can get an oyster with just 1.50 credit on it then returning it doesn't make much sense as It's only 50p extra and I can hang on to the card then until next time but AFAICT, this allows people to cap single fares at 4.50 - get an oyster with 1.50+3GBP deposit, make a 6GBP journey and then throw away the card. (Will an oyster card stop working if it's not used for 6 months and has no credit on it or can it just be topped up) Tim. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
On 18 Sep 2006 12:35:39 GMT, Adrian wrote:
If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? No, because of capping. It's more akin to one person buying a one day bus pass and then all three travelling on it. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
David A Stocks ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying : If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? No. Many people can use the card, but only one at a time. I know they can't. But I can't see any reason why that should be - except, as has been pointed out, the ODTC cap. Think about it. I have, thank you. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Peter Frimberley ) gurgled happily,
sounding much like they were saying : If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? Well it mucks up the prepay capping, or at least makes the calculation on whether a selection of journies have qualified for the cap that much more difficult. Not impossible, but definitely adds an extra degree of complexity. True. Of course two people using the same Oyster card at different time periods of the day also mucks up the prepay cap, Which, AIUI, is legit... but no more so than people sharing a paper one day travel card. Which, AIUI, isn't legit... Also what happens if two people get on the tube/bus together, but want to get off at different stations/stops. The card can only go with one of them. Tube would be an issue for that - because of the touching out. Not a problem on the bus, or if both/all get off together, as is likely to happen. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Peter Frimberley wrote: On 18 Sep 2006 12:35:39 GMT, Adrian wrote: Peter Frimberley ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. And the system should have some assumption built in about the minimum duration of a bus journey, but you you don't touch off a bus, so there is no definite time when you stop using it (and can pass it to someone else). We don't know that it doesn't have such an assumption. It may be as little as a few minutes, just enough to prevent more than one person travelling on the same card. If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? Well it mucks up the prepay capping, or at least makes the calculation on whether a selection of journies have qualified for the cap that much more difficult. Not impossible, but definitely adds an extra degree of complexity. Of course two people using the same Oyster card at different time periods of the day also mucks up the prepay cap, but no more so than people sharing a paper one day travel card. Also what happens if two people get on the tube/bus together, but want to get off at different stations/stops. The card can only go with one of them. In theory it ought to be possible but in practice it probably causes more problems than it is worth, so they just disallow it altogether. I think I'd prefer that it only allowed one person to use the card and simply didn't allow a second touch within a time limit, rather than it charge me twice if I accidentally touched twice while getting on. I think there can't be many situations where two consecutive touches in the same bus on it's same journey wouldn't be some kind of mistake (eg someone assuming they have to touch on the way out) and therefore shouldn't be charged. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
MIG wrote:
Peter Frimberley wrote: On 18 Sep 2006 12:35:39 GMT, Adrian wrote: Peter Frimberley ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. And the system should have some assumption built in about the minimum duration of a bus journey, but you you don't touch off a bus, so there is no definite time when you stop using it (and can pass it to someone else). We don't know that it doesn't have such an assumption. It may be as little as a few minutes, just enough to prevent more than one person travelling on the same card. If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? Well it mucks up the prepay capping, or at least makes the calculation on whether a selection of journies have qualified for the cap that much more difficult. Not impossible, but definitely adds an extra degree of complexity. Of course two people using the same Oyster card at different time periods of the day also mucks up the prepay cap, but no more so than people sharing a paper one day travel card. Also what happens if two people get on the tube/bus together, but want to get off at different stations/stops. The card can only go with one of them. In theory it ought to be possible but in practice it probably causes more problems than it is worth, so they just disallow it altogether. I think I'd prefer that it only allowed one person to use the card and simply didn't allow a second touch within a time limit, rather than it charge me twice if I accidentally touched twice while getting on. I think there can't be many situations where two consecutive touches in the same bus on it's same journey wouldn't be some kind of mistake (eg someone assuming they have to touch on the way out) and therefore shouldn't be charged. Perhaps a better solution would be to have an error message that says "user has just paid for this journey"... -- Dave Arquati www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
MIG wrote:
I think I'd prefer that it only allowed one person to use the card and simply didn't allow a second touch within a time limit, rather than it charge me twice if I accidentally touched twice while getting on. Time limits on their own cause trouble, in case a connection is made within that limit. Better would be a time limit for use in a reader with the same serial number. Neil |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Dave Arquati wrote: MIG wrote: Peter Frimberley wrote: On 18 Sep 2006 12:35:39 GMT, Adrian wrote: Peter Frimberley ) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were saying : You can share a prepay Oyster card with other people but not during the same journey. And the system should have some assumption built in about the minimum duration of a bus journey, but you you don't touch off a bus, so there is no definite time when you stop using it (and can pass it to someone else). We don't know that it doesn't have such an assumption. It may be as little as a few minutes, just enough to prevent more than one person travelling on the same card. If it's PAYG, what's the *problem* with several people travelling on the same card...? Isn't it absolutely the same thing as one person paying in cash for three tickets for themselves and the two people they're travelling with? Well it mucks up the prepay capping, or at least makes the calculation on whether a selection of journies have qualified for the cap that much more difficult. Not impossible, but definitely adds an extra degree of complexity. Of course two people using the same Oyster card at different time periods of the day also mucks up the prepay cap, but no more so than people sharing a paper one day travel card. Also what happens if two people get on the tube/bus together, but want to get off at different stations/stops. The card can only go with one of them. In theory it ought to be possible but in practice it probably causes more problems than it is worth, so they just disallow it altogether. I think I'd prefer that it only allowed one person to use the card and simply didn't allow a second touch within a time limit, rather than it charge me twice if I accidentally touched twice while getting on. I think there can't be many situations where two consecutive touches in the same bus on it's same journey wouldn't be some kind of mistake (eg someone assuming they have to touch on the way out) and therefore shouldn't be charged. Perhaps a better solution would be to have an error message that says "user has just paid for this journey"... Firstly, I'd like to hang my head in shame and apologise for that apostrophe, which was a pure typo, but still unforgiveable. Secondly, yes, I think that's the same solution. The nature of not allowing a second touch would presumably have to be some kind of error message. |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
In message . com, Neil
Williams writes MIG wrote: I think I'd prefer that it only allowed one person to use the card and simply didn't allow a second touch within a time limit, rather than it charge me twice if I accidentally touched twice while getting on. Time limits on their own cause trouble, in case a connection is made within that limit. Better would be a time limit for use in a reader with the same serial number. From my riding on the buses and my general interest, I think I have gleaned that once a pre-pay card is validated on a bus it is valid for that unique journey only. When the driver commences a new journey, by putting all the information into the ticket machine at the start of that run, it would then accept the card again as being a different journey. -- Steve Fitzgerald has now left the building. You will find him in London's Docklands, E16, UK (please use the reply to address for email) |
Suspected Scam Oyster on Buses
Steve Fitzgerald ] wrote in
: In message . com, Neil Williams writes MIG wrote: I think I'd prefer that it only allowed one person to use the card and simply didn't allow a second touch within a time limit, rather than it charge me twice if I accidentally touched twice while getting on. Time limits on their own cause trouble, in case a connection is made within that limit. Better would be a time limit for use in a reader with the same serial number. From my riding on the buses and my general interest, I think I have gleaned that once a pre-pay card is validated on a bus it is valid for that unique journey only. When the driver commences a new journey, by putting all the information into the ticket machine at the start of that run, it would then accept the card again as being a different journey. It seems to be more intelligent than that. Having found (after touching in) that a bus I was on was terminating at the next stop, I was not charged when I touched in on the following bus in order to complete my journey - I forget what message the machine displayed, but it made sense at the time. It looks to me like it's a combination of route (+ direction?) and time that determines how you're charged. D A Stocks |
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