Adrian Clark wrote:

Could this have a negative effect on pricing, though? I may not be
understanding the finer details of the Oyster system (down here in the
south London suburbs, there's no use for the cards) but I would have
thought such a system would involve standardised prices... ie reducing
the range of sub-Saver prices for tickets bought well in advance.

I can't see it being applied to InterCity ticketing, other than that
you'd be able to "load" a ticket onto it before travelling.

What it might nicely apply to, though, is local tickets - CDRs etc.

Neil

In article . com,
(jonmorris) wrote:

Bob wrote:
If Stagecoach have had to agree to boost the number of seats at
the peak by 20/21% - how come the same provisions were not applied to
FCC thuis leading to the Thameslink shambles.

Goodness knows. At the last Q&A session with FCC, Elaine Holt
pointed out that they have no requirement to provide any new trains
during their franchise period. As the 13 trains they need for the
Thameslink branch are currently with Southern, they have pretty much
said there's nothing they can do. The DfT are left trying to sort
something out, but why wasn't there any requirement to build new
rolling stock during the next 9 years? The 313s, 317s and 319s will
all be rather old by then!! Even the 365s will be falling apart.

The 365s and 319s are less than 20 years old. They are less than half
way through their operating lives. Even the 317s date from 1981.

Read this month's Modern Railways on how SWT might help Elaine Holt out.

--
Colin Rosenstiel

jonmorris wrote:
If commuter services are moved to a zone based pricing system and
Oyster, or a proper international standard system, is introduced
throughout the southeast, it's a start. If things are done properly, it
should be relatively easy to update the hardware to accept other types
of card in the future so we're not stuck with something completely
non-standard (as Oyster appears to be).

If installed everywhere, non-standard becomes the standard and everyone
has to adapt.

jonmorris wrote:

If every company could buy a working system 'off the shelf' then it
wouldn't be that much a problem to do. You don't have one person
(especially not a Government) trying to install it on buses, tubes,
trains, coaches etc - you have a recognised standard, then any number
of companies can produce the equipment to work with it. Every operator
can brand their own smartcards, but they are still interchangeable.

If the card system held credit, like Oyster, you could operate a simple
pay as you go system on anything - and why wouldn't that work abroad?
Well, apart from the currency conversion issue until we get the Euro.
Such a system could even be rolled out to taxis. Whoever debits the
card gets the money (less a commission fee) rather like a credit or
debit card (but unlike those, you can swipe in/out at gates etc).

Isn't this what ITSO is all about? Establish a standard for the cards
and the station hardware that any manufacturer can make, that will be
interoperable. The problem with Oyster is it is a proprietary system,
made by one consortium, so they are a monopoly supplier.

Effectively, it becomes an e-cash system. Funnily enough, Oyster had
visions of their card working for loads of things - which presumably
fell down when it became clear that outside of the transport industry,
there probably wasn't much interest in installing the equipment.

My understanding is that the Octopus card in Hong Kong, which is similar
to Oyster, is used for non-transport purchases like sweets and
newspapers. It may just take time, but I could imagine the kiosks on
underground stations being a good place to start.

Robin

R.C. Payne wrote:
jonmorris wrote:

If every company could buy a working system 'off the shelf' then it
wouldn't be that much a problem to do. You don't have one person
(especially not a Government) trying to install it on buses, tubes,
trains, coaches etc - you have a recognised standard, then any number
of companies can produce the equipment to work with it. Every operator
can brand their own smartcards, but they are still interchangeable.

If the card system held credit, like Oyster, you could operate a simple
pay as you go system on anything - and why wouldn't that work abroad?
Well, apart from the currency conversion issue until we get the Euro.
Such a system could even be rolled out to taxis. Whoever debits the
card gets the money (less a commission fee) rather like a credit or
debit card (but unlike those, you can swipe in/out at gates etc).

Isn't this what ITSO is all about? Establish a standard for the cards
and the station hardware that any manufacturer can make, that will be
interoperable. The problem with Oyster is it is a proprietary system,
made by one consortium, so they are a monopoly supplier.

Effectively, it becomes an e-cash system. Funnily enough, Oyster had
visions of their card working for loads of things - which presumably
fell down when it became clear that outside of the transport industry,
there probably wasn't much interest in installing the equipment.

My understanding is that the Octopus card in Hong Kong, which is similar
to Oyster, is used for non-transport purchases like sweets and
newspapers. It may just take time, but I could imagine the kiosks on
underground stations being a good place to start.


Makes you wonder why they would separately try to introduce ID cards
given that, once cash stops being accepted in most places, these smart
cards would effectively become a licence to exist that could be
withdrawn if the authorities don't like you.

And you won't be able to buy toilet roll without it being recorded in a
database, let alone travel somewhere.

I don't really relish this kind of future. But it's the "security"
implications of being able to track all our movements and purchases
that may eventually get it funded, not travel convenience.

In message .com, MIG
writes
And you won't be able to buy toilet roll without it being recorded in a
database, let alone travel somewhere.
But surely if we're working towards a paperless system, toilet roll will
be replaced with some smartcard alternative which one can just
swipe.......

(I'll get my coat.)
--
Ian Jelf, MITG
Birmingham, UK

Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England
http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk

In message , Ian Jelf
writes
In message .com, MIG
writes
And you won't be able to buy toilet roll without it being recorded in
a database, let alone travel somewhere.
But surely if we're working towards a paperless system, toilet roll
will be replaced with some smartcard alternative which one can just
swipe.......

(I'll get my coat.)
Doesn't Tesco already have a huge database on which punter buys what?
--
Charlie.

Andrew wrote:
jonmorris wrote:
If commuter services are moved to a zone based pricing system and
Oyster, or a proper international standard system, is introduced
throughout the southeast, it's a start. If things are done properly, it
should be relatively easy to update the hardware to accept other types
of card in the future so we're not stuck with something completely
non-standard (as Oyster appears to be).

If installed everywhere, non-standard becomes the standard and everyone
has to adapt.

I always thought that the main reason the TOC's never installed Oyster
was that they were going to eventually use the agreed European standard
for rail smart cards.

Oyster were a bit arrogant and decided to use their own version of
smart card.
But as it's being used by a large population it may well become the
defacto standard for the UK.

Quite what the approved European smart card does above the Oyster, I do
not know.

As for who should run it. I think it'd be great to also make it the
de-facto electronic purse. Even if it is just station related. For
example the sweet/fizzy pop machines and phone boxes

But if we are going to have cards being used like money then shouldn't
the banks be running it and not some transport quango? (I understand
Mint are already giving it a try)

A

"Andrew" wrote in message
. uk...
jonmorris wrote:
If commuter services are moved to a zone based pricing system and
Oyster, or a proper international standard system, is introduced
throughout the southeast, it's a start. If things are done properly, it
should be relatively easy to update the hardware to accept other types
of card in the future so we're not stuck with something completely
non-standard (as Oyster appears to be).

If installed everywhere, non-standard becomes the standard and everyone
has to adapt.

Why not start introducing Oyster card systems to other cities and urban
areas with large bus and train movements?
That would simply copy the current London setup and allow the pricing to be
worked out nationally with further spread into the rural areas for the
services that run between the smaller towns etc.

Nick



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

The message
from Ian Jelf contains these words:

And you won't be able to buy toilet roll without it being recorded in a
database, let alone travel somewhere.
But surely if we're working towards a paperless system, toilet roll will
be replaced with some smartcard alternative which one can just
swipe.......

Didn't you mean "smartarse" alternative...? g

--
Dave,
Frodsham