On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:37:55 GMT, "Bob Wood"
wrote:

In ,
Colin Rosenstiel typed:


There appears to be a minimum now, but only £4.80.


The £4.80 minumum fare applies only to TravelCards, as far as I am
aware.


I should just add that I've finally received written confirmation from
London Underground that Gold Card holders are entitled to buy
discounted Day Travelcards (from LU ticket offices) for use
themselves. Which is something that has always been the case but
unfortunatly the LU ticket office staff don't all seem to be aware of,
for example insisting to me that I could only buy them for people
travelling with me!

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Nicholas wrote:

On Mon, 02 Oct 2006 13:37:55 GMT, "Bob Wood"
wrote:

In ,
Colin Rosenstiel typed:


There appears to be a minimum now, but only £4.80.


The £4.80 minumum fare applies only to TravelCards, as far as I am
aware.


I should just add that I've finally received written confirmation from
London Underground that Gold Card holders are entitled to buy
discounted Day Travelcards (from LU ticket offices) for use
themselves. Which is something that has always been the case but
unfortunatly the LU ticket office staff don't all seem to be aware of,
for example insisting to me that I could only buy them for people
travelling with me!

Nicholas


Well done for doing that - is it an email/letter from TfL/LU? Perhaps
you might like to copy and paste it here so if people ask about this in
the future they can find/be referred back to the official answer.

I bet this doesn't filter down to LU ticket offices though! If they're
being obstinate on this my workaround would be to buy the required
discounted all-zones Day Travelcard at the ticket office and if they
insist it's not necessary/not possible then you can just make out it's
for a travelling companion who's just dawdling around the corner/in the
shop/wherever.

Bear in mind that when you go outside your Travelcards zonal
validity...

*if* you have your Gold Card Travelcard loaded on your Oyster card and

*if* you're only travelling on the Tube/DLR/NR routes where Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) is accepted

....then depending upon what zones your Gold Card Travelcard covers in
many cases it'll be cheaper to just use your Oyster card to cover the
excess fare. Example below...

---
If you have a zones 1&3 Gold Card Travelcard and you're going to be
travelling around a lot on the Metropolitan line beyond zone 3 then
even if you made several journeys the amount you'd pay would be capped
at less than £4.80 (which is the current price of a discounted
all-zones Travelcard).

If you stayed within zone 6 the cap would be £3.80 (which is the
capping level that applies for journey in zones 2-6), and if you went
out of zone 6 into zone(s) A/B/C/D then the cap would be £4.10.

All capping levels quoted are off-peak price caps and can be reviewed
on the TfL site [1].
---

Of course if you want to travel out of your Gold Card Travelcards zonal
validity on most National Rail services Oyster PAYG is no good - which
is where the discounted all-zones Day Travelcard comes in handy. And if
you're travelling with others then the whole equation is of course
different as you can of course buy discounted tickets (including
all-zones Day Travelcards) for up to three other accompanying adults on
the condition that their tickets mirror yours exactly.

-----
[1] http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...ubedlr-4.shtml

On 8 Oct 2006 10:14:02 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Nicholas wrote:
I should just add that I've finally received written confirmation from
London Underground that Gold Card holders are entitled to buy
discounted Day Travelcards (from LU ticket offices) for use
themselves. Which is something that has always been the case but
unfortunatly the LU ticket office staff don't all seem to be aware of,
for example insisting to me that I could only buy them for people
travelling with me!

Well done for doing that - is it an email/letter from TfL/LU? Perhaps
you might like to copy and paste it here so if people ask about this in
the future they can find/be referred back to the official answer.

It's a letter. I originally wrote last December and was told
(incorrectly) that I could NOT buy a discounted Day Travelcard for
myself. I then wrote back attaching the relavant page of the ATOC
fares manual and a print out of the page with the Gold Card benefits
mentioned in this thread. The reply from the Customer Service Centre
stated:

"I have just double checked the position and as per the papers you
provided, you can buy a discounted Zones 1-6 Off-Peak Travelcards, as
well, at the same rate as any adults you might be helping, i.e. at the
current rate of £4.80. " [apologies for the error in previous
letter]...

...then depending upon what zones your Gold Card Travelcard covers in
many cases it'll be cheaper to just use your Oyster card to cover the
excess fare. Example below...

Indeed, thanks. I actually have a paper National Rail issued Zone 2
only Annual Travelcard which morphed itself into Zones 2&3 at no
extra charge when I got the South West Trains ticket office to replace
it as the print had faded out! Presumably they could no longer issue a
Zone 2 only as the option doesn't exist anymore. Anyway, can't
complain as I now have an extra zone to play with.

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Nicholas wrote:

On 8 Oct 2006 10:14:02 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Nicholas wrote:
I should just add that I've finally received written confirmation from
London Underground that Gold Card holders are entitled to buy
discounted Day Travelcards (from LU ticket offices) for use
themselves. Which is something that has always been the case but
unfortunatly the LU ticket office staff don't all seem to be aware of,
for example insisting to me that I could only buy them for people
travelling with me!

Well done for doing that - is it an email/letter from TfL/LU? Perhaps
you might like to copy and paste it here so if people ask about this in
the future they can find/be referred back to the official answer.

It's a letter. I originally wrote last December and was told
(incorrectly) that I could NOT buy a discounted Day Travelcard for
myself. I then wrote back attaching the relavant page of the ATOC
fares manual and a print out of the page with the Gold Card benefits
mentioned in this thread. The reply from the Customer Service Centre
stated:

"I have just double checked the position and as per the papers you
provided, you can buy a discounted Zones 1-6 Off-Peak Travelcards, as
well, at the same rate as any adults you might be helping, i.e. at the
current rate of £4.80. " [apologies for the error in previous
letter]...


Hmm. It looks like the original erroneous letter you received from them
has just been dismissed as a foul up in LU's customer services
department. I don't know wherther your original letter spoke of your
past problems buying a discounted Day Travelcard from LU ticket
office(s), but that extract doesn't sound like anything would be done
to disseminate the correct information to LU ticket offices staff -
perhaps the rest of the letter does say something like that.

...then depending upon what zones your Gold Card Travelcard covers in
many cases it'll be cheaper to just use your Oyster card to cover the
excess fare. Example below...

Indeed, thanks. I actually have a paper National Rail issued Zone 2
only Annual Travelcard which morphed itself into Zones 2&3 at no
extra charge when I got the South West Trains ticket office to replace
it as the print had faded out! Presumably they could no longer issue a
Zone 2 only as the option doesn't exist anymore. Anyway, can't
complain as I now have an extra zone to play with.

Nicholas


Nice! An extra zone for free is not to be sniffed at.

Anyone buying an annual bus pass would of course do well to buy a Gold
Card Travelcard (at a cost of £560 as opposed to £540) - not only
would they get two zones of rail & Tube travel but they'd get the Gold
Card benefits as well. Given that a Network Railcard costs £20 and the
Gold Card discounts are better (same level of discount but no minimum
fare, plus £3 first class upgrades, plus some TOCs offer more benefits
on top of that), the extra £20 is well worth it - and of course you
can get a Network Railcard for a partner/friend/member of the
family/anyone you want for £1 as well.

And of course if you buy it loaded on Oyster from TfL and use the Tube
or DLR you automatically combine your Travelcard's zones of validity
with Pay-as-you-go so you pay less for journeys out of your Travelcards
validity - e.g. a daytime journey from zone 3 to zone 1 that would cost
£2.50 using pure PAYG (paying for all three zones) costs £1.50 using
Travelcard & PAYG combined (paying for zone 1 - zones 2&3 covered by
the Travelcard). Small amounts maybe but they all add up over time.

All that said I don't know how many people buy annual bus passes - I'd
imagine it wasn't a great number. Nonthess those regularly buying
monthly Travelcards would be wise to consider upgrading to the annual
Gold Card for it's benefits.

On 8 Oct 2006 10:14:02 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Bear in mind that when you go outside your Travelcards zonal
validity...

*if* you have your Gold Card Travelcard loaded on your Oyster card and

*if* you're only travelling on the Tube/DLR/NR routes where Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) is accepted

...then depending upon what zones your Gold Card Travelcard covers in
many cases it'll be cheaper to just use your Oyster card to cover the
excess fare.

You can't do this - if your annual season does not include at least a
Z1-6 Travelcard, if you buy a Gold Card discounted Travelcard for
anyone accompanying you, you must also buy one for yourself (even if
you're not going outside your zones).

(See the National Fares Manual, section F:
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...4_Common_F.pdf )

This rule is so illogical and, quite frankly, ridiculous (in most such
circumstances it makes using the Gold Card far more expensive than
not), that it seems to have morphed into the "can't buy discounted
Travelcards for yourself" rule that has been disseminated to LU ticket
offices.

asdf wrote:

On 8 Oct 2006 10:14:02 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

Bear in mind that when you go outside your Travelcards zonal
validity...

*if* you have your Gold Card Travelcard loaded on your Oyster card and

*if* you're only travelling on the Tube/DLR/NR routes where Oyster
Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) is accepted

...then depending upon what zones your Gold Card Travelcard covers in
many cases it'll be cheaper to just use your Oyster card to cover the
excess fare.

You can't do this - if your annual season does not include at least a
Z1-6 Travelcard, if you buy a Gold Card discounted Travelcard for
anyone accompanying you, you must also buy one for yourself (even if
you're not going outside your zones).

(See the National Fares Manual, section F:
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...4_Common_F.pdf )


You've misunderstood my point because I didn't make myself at all clear
enough. My comments were in the context of a Gold Card holder
travelling alone.

If one is travelling alone (i.e. *not* travelling together with
accompanying adults who are benefiting from your Gold Card discount),
then *if* one is using the Tube/DLR it is almost certainly cheaper for
the holder of a Gold Card Travelcard loaded on an Oyster to just use
the PAYG element to cover their excess fare automatically rather than
buying a separate all-zones Travelcard. Thus I was just trying to
demonstrate the usefulness of an Oyster card to Nicholas over a paper
ticket when it comes to going outside the zonal validity of one's
Travelcard.

Of course if one day he were to be travelling extensively all around
London on National Rail, who mostly don't accept Oyster PAYG, then
buying a discounted all-zones Day Travelcard would be useful.

That said he may well prefer to stick with SWT's paper tickets as he
might get the 5% charter discount when renewing his Gold Card, plus SWT
give holders 6 free weekend tickets as well.

Of course if one is travelling with others then the Gold Card holder
needs to buy a discounted all-zones Day Travelcard for themselves as
well, unless their Gold Card Travelcard covers Z1-6 already. Apols for
the confusion


This rule is so illogical and, quite frankly, ridiculous (in most such
circumstances it makes using the Gold Card far more expensive than
not), that it seems to have morphed into the "can't buy discounted
Travelcards for yourself" rule that has been disseminated to LU ticket
offices.


I think there is a logic to it - those accompanying a Gold Card holder
must have tickets that exactly mirror the holders (the "mirroring
rule", to coin a phrase), unless part of the route is already covered
by the Gold Card holders season ticket.

If the rules were changed they'd either:

(1) Have to allow the accompanying adults to have a discounted Day
Travelcard that exactly matched the holders Travelcard - so for example
a Z2&3 Day Travelcard would have to be created just for those
accompanying a Gold Card holder, which would be incongruous with the
pricing structure of Day Travelcards. TfL would not agree to this as it
would mess things up.

(2) Have to allow holders of less than all-zone Gold Card Travelcards
to purchase discounted all-zone Travelcards for accompanying adults
anyway, despite it breaking the "mirroring rule". This is what you seem
to suggest. As well as breaking the NR fares "mirroring rule", I think
TfL would object to this at it would mean that many people would choose
this over other ticketing methods and it would have revenue
implications.


Bear in mind that the Gold Card discount scheme is one that was created
by Network SouthEast (NSE) and was designed for the benefit of the
railway, not LT/TfL. Indeed there was a period after it was introduced
when London Transport issued annual Travelcards were *not* issued as
Gold Cards - they were only only issued by NSE for a while - though in
time LU started issuing them also.

The agreement between the railways and LT/TfL - that only all-zones
Travelcards benefit from railcard reductions - reflects the fact that
it's really aimed at people outside of London buying out-boundary
Travelcards (e.g. Brighton to zones 1-6), as opposed to purchases
within London. I suspect one reason that the discounted all-zones
Travelcard exist in the first place is to maintain a logical fares
structure - if they did not exist an out-boundary Potters Bar to zones
1-6 railcard discounted Travelcard might be cheaper than an in-boundary
one.

Also one should note that TfL's aim is getting people who're travelling
wholly within London onto using Oyster, rather than paper tickets.

On 9 Oct 2006 04:27:42 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

You've misunderstood my point because I didn't make myself at all clear
enough. My comments were in the context of a Gold Card holder
travelling alone.

Oops, sorry, I read some previous context into your post that wasn't
actually there.

This rule is so illogical and, quite frankly, ridiculous (in most such
circumstances it makes using the Gold Card far more expensive than
not), that it seems to have morphed into the "can't buy discounted
Travelcards for yourself" rule that has been disseminated to LU ticket
offices.

I think there is a logic to it - those accompanying a Gold Card holder
must have tickets that exactly mirror the holders (the "mirroring
rule", to coin a phrase), unless part of the route is already covered
by the Gold Card holders season ticket.

Firstly, I'm not sure if the "mirroring rule" really exists. I've just
read through all the Gold Card rules again and I'm still none the
wiser...

But anyway, it does specifically say that if you're travelling within
the validity of your season, you don't need to buy a ticket for
yourself. It then gives the "have to also buy a discounted ODTC for
yourself" rule as an *exception* to this. But then again, it says you
only have to do this if your season is "not valid for travel in all
the Travelcard zones" - I'd assumed this meant Z1-6, but perhaps it
just means all the zones you travel through?

The more you read these rules, the less clear they become!

asdf wrote:

On 9 Oct 2006 04:27:42 -0700, Mizter T wrote:

You've misunderstood my point because I didn't make myself at all clear
enough. My comments were in the context of a Gold Card holder
travelling alone.

Oops, sorry, I read some previous context into your post that wasn't
actually there.

My bad as the yanks (inexplicably) say! I first drafted my reply in the
context of a Gold Card holder & one or more accompanying passengers,
re-read Nicholas' post and thought in fact he was referring to just
the Gold Card holder. Re-reading it again (!) it's unclear.


This rule is so illogical and, quite frankly, ridiculous (in most such
circumstances it makes using the Gold Card far more expensive than
not), that it seems to have morphed into the "can't buy discounted
Travelcards for yourself" rule that has been disseminated to LU ticket
offices.

I think there is a logic to it - those accompanying a Gold Card holder
must have tickets that exactly mirror the holders (the "mirroring
rule", to coin a phrase), unless part of the route is already covered
by the Gold Card holders season ticket.

Firstly, I'm not sure if the "mirroring rule" really exists. I've just
read through all the Gold Card rules again and I'm still none the
wiser...

But anyway, it does specifically say that if you're travelling within
the validity of your season, you don't need to buy a ticket for
yourself. It then gives the "have to also buy a discounted ODTC for
yourself" rule as an *exception* to this. But then again, it says you
only have to do this if your season is "not valid for travel in all
the Travelcard zones" - I'd assumed this meant Z1-6, but perhaps it
just means all the zones you travel through?

The more you read these rules, the less clear they become!

It's not clear what logic is at play, but there will be thinking behind
it I'm sure.

As I first said if there is the "mirroring rule" concept then there'd
have to be all sorts of zonal combinations for Day Travelcards
specifically for those accompanying Gold Card holders. Apart from
anything this would be messy!

But I think it leads on to the second point I was trying to
inarticulately make - London Transport as was, and TfL as is, were/are
only willing to play along with railcard reductions on the condition
that the dicount applied to all-zones cards. I've no idea how the
revenue division works here - do NR cover the discount by taking less
out of the pot, or does TfL take a bit of a hit on the basis that Day
Travelcard sales will be higher. If anyone in the know can add any
information that's already in the public domain that'd be most
interesting.

This rule is so illogical and, quite frankly, ridiculous (in most such
circumstances it makes using the Gold Card far more expensive than

I think it might be to penalise annual ticket holders who split their
ticket to save money (like I do). I have a season from Potters Bar to
Oakleigh Park and a Z1-4 oyster, which saves nearly £400 annually over a
normal "all zones and extension" ticket. Probably like most commuters I
rarely stray from my route and any social stuff I do is along that route
and only out as far as Z2 in any other direction. I probably do Z3-6 about
twice a year if that, which I can do on prepay using vouchers when delayed
on the tube

But of course, if I try to buy a discounted travelcard for the girlfriend,
I have to buy one for myself. I bought a couple but finally the ticket
office informed me this was not allowed.

The ODTC is £10 so it's more expensive to buy two discounted tickets than
one undiscounted ticket, so we just pay full price. I haven't tried
mirroring my ticket getting a discount CDR and full price Z1-4 but I don't
expect the ticket office could sell such a ticket as we're outside Z6. If
they did, this brings the ticket down to £7.40

I guess we only go into London 20 or so times a year so that 17% saving on
my normal ticket is the better option.

D