Tom Anderson wrote:

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Mizter T wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

(snip)

I think it'd be far preferable to get as much rail freight traffic as
possible on routes that avoid going through London.

Not only preferable, but absolutely necessary. There's a Felixstowe -
Nuneaton (IIRC) route that is the great white hope here; it needs various
bits of fiddling about, but would allow Felixstowe's traffic to the north,
which is rather substantial, to bypass London completely.

I've not read the freight study but an out of town link across the
Thames, such as at Tilbury, sounds good.

That doesn't help you avoid London, though - from Tilbury, it's the Goblin
or the NLL to Willesden and up north from there. It does keep trains off
the south London suburban network, though.

In fact, with stuff coming up from the channel tunnel, Thamesport and
Sheerness in Kent, and Purfleet, Tilbury and soon Shellhaven in Essex,
there's quite a lot of freight with no current way to avoid London.
Someone suggested here a while ago that it might be possible to make the
NLL four-track throughout, which would allow for a dedicated freight route
from Stratford to Willesden, which would help a lot (although getting from
the ports to Stratford is still a bottleneck). Ideally, i suppose, there'd
be a freight railway running alongside the M25 from Upminsterish to Hemel
Hempstead, to avoid London completely, but i'd say that was really rather
unlikely to come about!


Thanking you kindly for your 'executive summary' of the situation -
it's really not something I'm au fait with. Thee is, I understand, a
report on this issue that I'll try and track down and take a look at
sometime.

TOT - just noticed what an odd word freight is, no "i before e except
after c" rule for this rebel rule-breaker. I think I should go to bed!


(snip question re viaduct stub)

Re your second question - the stub of the viaduct might contain business
premises in the arches, I don't know, I'll take a look next time I'm
around there. Presumably it could be knocked down and built on, though
I'd imagine such a redevelopment would be expensive given the difficulty
of demolition so close to the busy tracks out of Liverpool Street (look
at an aerial photo [1] to see this for yourself)

I was wondering if something could be put on top of the viaduct, which is
currently just grass. I thought it would be rather fun to have a new park
right in the middle of the City - about half the size of the HAC grounds
at Bunhill Fields, or twice the size of Finsbury Square. And up in the
air!


Like a very short version of the NYC High Line...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Line
http://www.thehighline.org/

....that'd be a great idea. Though if it ever happened I'd be glad it
was so short - as the rest of the trackbed would be in daily use as a
railway!

Mizter T wrote:

(snip)

Thanking you kindly for your 'executive summary' of the situation -
it's really not something I'm au fait with. Thee is, I understand, a
report on this issue that I'll try and track down and take a look at
sometime.


Just realised that I'd read about the freight study in one of your
earlier postings, d'oh!

John Rowland wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:

Fourth question! How did Broad Street once function as it apparently
did as a terminus of the Great Northern? How do you get from
Finsbury Park to Broad Street? Ah, no, i see - there's a curve from
just below Drayton Park to the NLL. Isn't that single-track, though?


The "Canonbury Curve" (search for it on uk.railway) used to be a two
track railway. If you look through the fence opposite of Drayton Park
station you'll see that the trackbed and tunnel do have space for two
tracks.

The Canonbury Curve was singled when electrified, I think because there
wasn't enough room for two lines with overhead.

Of course if one really wanted to reinstall a two track railway with
OHLE along the Canonbury Curve then it could of course be done - by
lowering the track and enlarging the tunnels where needed I guess.

Kev wrote:

If the ELLx is such a great idea why is the current ELL
so poorly used.

If the current ELL was busy, they couldn't extend it.

TheOneKEA wrote:

If the ELLX is not extended to Finsbury Park, then the
GN&CR service should be enhanced using the 313s to permit low-stress
connections between the two lines, thereby opening up the entire ECML
catchment area to the ELLX and taking pressure off of KX and Moorgate.

What pressure at KX and Moorgate? KX will lose a lot of trains under TL2k.
Moorgate only has 6tph per platform during the height of the peak.

TheOneKEA wrote:

On Oct 10, 12:15 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:

(snip)

There was no effective through link and the service was run with clapped out
stock with stations maintained to the lowest BR standard possible. Even
Broad Street was run in that way - it was distinctly uninviting. The GLC
spent a lot of cash on the NLL, electrified it and built / modernised
stations in Hackney. The ELLX will, from the looks of things, be a
further step change in quality and frequency. The stations and trains
will also offer far better security than the old 1980s BR services did.
The poor quality of the old services is what made them unattractive and
ELLX / Overground should reverse that in time.

Indeed. The biggest advantage I see is that Shoreditch High Street will
be literally right next to the new City offices being built near
Liverpool Street. I would not be shocked if pax numbers on the gateline
at London Bridge went into freefall after the ELLX opened to
Shoreditch.


I definitely wouldn't say the passenger numbers at London Bridge would
go into freefall after the ELLX has opened: it's a very busy station
for city commuters; the ELLX will only run down the line to Croydon -
true, some pax from the Dartford lines could change at New Cross, but
people often prefer not to change trains (esp. during rush hour) and
there will probably be a time penalty in doing this; most importantly
going via Shoreditch High Street will deliver them to the north of the
City - for many, London Bridge and Cannon Street will remain more
convenient termini.

Some will switch to the ELLX to Shoreditch, but (obviously) only if
it's more convenient. So instead I'd say a bit of pressure could be
taken off London Bridge. The CTRL-DS will also take a further bit of
pressure off London Bridge (probably), though the jury is till very
much out on what effect these new fast train services from Kent will
have on travelling patterns.

On Oct 11, 1:40 am, "John Rowland"
wrote:
TheOneKEA wrote:

If the ELLX is not extended to Finsbury Park, then the
GN&CR service should be enhanced using the 313s to permit low-stress
connections between the two lines, thereby opening up the entire ECML
catchment area to the ELLX and taking pressure off of KX and Moorgate.

What pressure at KX and Moorgate? KX will lose a lot of trains under TL2k.
Moorgate only has 6tph per platform during the height of the peak.

And yet TL2K is still stalled. The 313s are still going to end up off
lease when the LO stock comes on stream, and IMO the best thing to do
is to enhance the GN&CR services using these off-lease 313s as a
stopgap measure until TL2K is finally sorted out.

Besides, if TL2K does go through, then KX will be relieved, but
Finsbury Park will become even busier - and that station is not a nice
place when busy. Lengthening or intensifying the GN&CR service to
provide an alternate route for ECML commuters headed for the City that
doesn't involve lengthy walks at KxStP seems like a no-brainer,
especially given the interchange with the ELLX at Highbury.

On Oct 11, 9:27 am, "Mizter T" wrote:
I definitely wouldn't say the passenger numbers at London Bridge would
go into freefall after the ELLX has opened: it's a very busy station
for city commuters; the ELLX will only run down the line to Croydon -
true, some pax from the Dartford lines could change at New Cross, but
people often prefer not to change trains (esp. during rush hour) and
there will probably be a time penalty in doing this; most importantly
going via Shoreditch High Street will deliver them to the north of the
City - for many, London Bridge and Cannon Street will remain more
convenient termini.

True - I suppose it was a bit much to say that they would go into
freefall, but I would have expected that the provision of bus services
headed directly into the northern and eastern City quadrants from the
ELLX would make it attractive for a significant portion of City
commuters. Earlier comments about new construction spreading the City
to the north and east would seem to add to this.


Some will switch to the ELLX to Shoreditch, but (obviously) only if
it's more convenient. So instead I'd say a bit of pressure could be
taken off London Bridge. The CTRL-DS will also take a further bit of
pressure off London Bridge (probably), though the jury is till very
much out on what effect these new fast train services from Kent will
have on travelling patterns.

True. I doubt even the people of Kent know what effect the CTRL-DS will
have on traveling patterns.

On Wed, 11 Oct 2006 00:57:38 +0100, Tim Roll-Pickering
wrote:
Mizter T wrote:

I can't recall all the details about the messy extended closure of the
line in the 90's,

Wasn't it a combination of upgrading the tunnel under the Thames, combined
with building Canada Water?

Well it was primarily to deal with the tunnel, but during that time various
parties involved got into a number of arguments about the best way to deal
with it, I can't now remember precisely who it was, but we all (ie us users
and interested observers) came to the conclusion that Brunel obviously knew
a great deal more about tunneling than they did.
Canada Water came later, or was opened to the public some time after the line
reopened.
The replacement bus service was comprised of the now no longer seen Hoppers
with their very bouncy suspension, and those of us who had previously used
NXG had to make our own way to Surrey Quays to get one.
Still I am hopeful that now we have TfL it may work out somewhat better.

--
Martin Smith

TheOneKEA wrote:
On Oct 11, 9:27 am, "Mizter T" wrote:
I definitely wouldn't say the passenger numbers at London Bridge would
go into freefall after the ELLX has opened: it's a very busy station
for city commuters; the ELLX will only run down the line to Croydon -
true, some pax from the Dartford lines could change at New Cross, but
people often prefer not to change trains (esp. during rush hour) and
there will probably be a time penalty in doing this; most importantly
going via Shoreditch High Street will deliver them to the north of the
City - for many, London Bridge and Cannon Street will remain more
convenient termini.

True - I suppose it was a bit much to say that they would go into
freefall, but I would have expected that the provision of bus services
headed directly into the northern and eastern City quadrants from the
ELLX would make it attractive for a significant portion of City
commuters. Earlier comments about new construction spreading the City
to the north and east would seem to add to this.


Shank's pony has traditionally been the way City workers get to and
from their office and station - it's certainly what I'd do. That said,
I was recently on a bus going south over London Bridge to LB station
and was mildly appalled at the number of people who boarded the bus at
the stop on the north side of the bridge to get to the station - these
were able bodied people, and it wasn't raining either - and it wasn't a
bendy bus so they had to line up to get on. I hasten to add I'd come
from significantly further north. But then again I'm repeatedly amazed
to see people who I've waited with at a bus stop for a good few minutes
get off a couple of stops later - again, they're able bodied &
unencumbered with heavy bags.

Bus passes and Travelcards are great, but they don't provide an
incentive for these people to think twice before getting on a bus,
whilst stumping up a fare each time would. It's for this reason that
I'm somewhat wary about kids having free bus travel - you can see whole
groups of schoolkids just jump on for a one stop hop down the road.
We're trying to encourage walking!


Some will switch to the ELLX to Shoreditch, but (obviously) only if
it's more convenient. So instead I'd say a bit of pressure could be
taken off London Bridge. The CTRL-DS will also take a further bit of
pressure off London Bridge (probably), though the jury is till very
much out on what effect these new fast train services from Kent will
have on travelling patterns.

True. I doubt even the people of Kent know what effect the CTRL-DS will
have on traveling patterns.

The CTRL-DS is an interesting case. If it weren't for the Chunnel a
super fast link through Kent to London would obviously never have been
constructed, yet it has been built and these high speed DS services are
piggybacking on all this expensive infrastructure. That's totally fair
enough, but as you say I'm not sure that anyone can really say how this
will change things. Though I'm sure there's a load of wily estate
agents, housing developers and local authority economic planners who're
planning hard to ensure they get their slice of the pie!