Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Am I alone in thinking the current student discount scheme on TfL is a mess,
both in the application and the discount available?

Currently to apply a student has to first enrol for the year, then get hold
of a discount form, fill it out & add a photo, get it stamped and signed by
an authority in the university, then send it off to Hull and wait two weeks
for either the card to arrive or a rejection letter.

It's quite easy to get the form wrong and not realise this until the
rejection comes, whilst the annual expirary at the end of September causes a
mass rush of renewals at the start of the term, as everyone tries to get
their new card before the old one expires. Also this has led to problems for
enrolment - any attempt to get some groups of students to enrol in the later
stages of the fortnight is undermined because a lot of people want to get
their discount sorted sooner.

Furthermore the discount is 30% off weekly or longer travelcards when many
students would benefit much more from a discount on daily tickets - indeed
many think they're buying the equivalent of a Young Persons' Railcard and
it's only afterwards they realise it's not, often when they find they've
been charged more than they can spare. (Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

Has anyone else noted similar problems?

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 20:51:49 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Currently to apply a student has to first enrol for the year, then get hold
of a discount form, fill it out & add a photo, get it stamped and signed by
an authority in the university, then send it off to Hull and wait two weeks
for either the card to arrive or a rejection letter.

Indeed, this has always been a problem. You can't get an application
form authorised until you enrol (understandably) and by that time it's
already mid September or later.

Some universities that are part of the ULU (University of London
Union) used to issue these Student Photocards themselves but I don't
think they do anymore since the introduction of Oyster it all gets
issed in Hull or whereever (probably same place as the new 16-17 and
Child Oyster Photocards).

It's quite easy to get the form wrong and not realise this until the
rejection comes, whilst the annual expirary at the end of September causes a
mass rush of renewals at the start of the term, as everyone tries to get
their new card before the old one expires.

Well, if I can remember correctly when the scheme first launched, the
cards used to expire on 30th July which meant having to pay adult
rates for the first few weeks of term while waiting for the new card.
At least now it gives you a bit of a buffer and discounted travel
through the summer.

Furthermore the discount is 30% off weekly or longer travelcards when many
students would benefit much more from a discount on daily tickets

Agreed this does seem strange as there are discounted Oyster PAYG
rates for 16-17 and Child Oyster photocards. At least you now entitled
to Travelcards and not 'LT Cards' in the first few years of the scheme
which was a major limitation (not valid on National Rail).

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already. :)

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

My university now uses the scheme where you fill in the form online,
which would appear to be easier. Haven't done it myself yet, as I'm
moving abroad. Don't know how it work with regard to authorisation from
the college.

What is frustrating is that, if one has a Student Oystercard, it cannot
be renewed, instead, you must get a new one.


Nicholas wrote:
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 20:51:49 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Currently to apply a student has to first enrol for the year, then get hold
of a discount form, fill it out & add a photo, get it stamped and signed by
an authority in the university, then send it off to Hull and wait two weeks
for either the card to arrive or a rejection letter.

Indeed, this has always been a problem. You can't get an application
form authorised until you enrol (understandably) and by that time it's
already mid September or later.

Some universities that are part of the ULU (University of London
Union) used to issue these Student Photocards themselves but I don't
think they do anymore since the introduction of Oyster it all gets
issed in Hull or whereever (probably same place as the new 16-17 and
Child Oyster Photocards).

It's quite easy to get the form wrong and not realise this until the
rejection comes, whilst the annual expirary at the end of September causes a
mass rush of renewals at the start of the term, as everyone tries to get
their new card before the old one expires.

Well, if I can remember correctly when the scheme first launched, the
cards used to expire on 30th July which meant having to pay adult
rates for the first few weeks of term while waiting for the new card.
At least now it gives you a bit of a buffer and discounted travel
through the summer.

Furthermore the discount is 30% off weekly or longer travelcards when many
students would benefit much more from a discount on daily tickets

Agreed this does seem strange as there are discounted Oyster PAYG
rates for 16-17 and Child Oyster photocards. At least you now entitled
to Travelcards and not 'LT Cards' in the first few years of the scheme
which was a major limitation (not valid on National Rail).

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already. :)

Nicholas

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Nicholas wrote:

Indeed, this has always been a problem. You can't get an application
form authorised until you enrol (understandably) and by that time it's
already mid September or later.

Some universities that are part of the ULU (University of London
Union) used to issue these Student Photocards themselves but I don't
think they do anymore since the introduction of Oyster it all gets
issed in Hull or whereever (probably same place as the new 16-17 and
Child Oyster Photocards).

By comparison the new NUS Extra card which was launched this year requires
an online application, with many students' unions setting up computers to
take the pictures, and then the card is delivered to the SU who must verify
the student's card there and then. As a result you can apply even before
re-enrolling for the year (if your student ID number is carried forward) and
also you walk away from applying knowing that it's all in order.

As far as I know ULU and UofL college SUs no longer issue the cards
themselves. Until 2004-2005 the card was a separate photocard but from
2005-2006 it's been a Oyster with a photo printed on it, which has the
discount switched off at the end of September and can be used as a standard
Oyster.

Ideally I'd like to see TfL at either enrolments (although most returning
QMUL undergrad and masters students enrol online) or Freshers' Fairs, where
the applications could be processed onsite, but at the very least something
like the NUS Extra set-up would work.

Well, if I can remember correctly when the scheme first launched, the
cards used to expire on 30th July which meant having to pay adult
rates for the first few weeks of term while waiting for the new card.
At least now it gives you a bit of a buffer and discounted travel
through the summer.

Yes - nice of them to remember that for many students the summer is a
crucial period. (I spent one summer travelling almost dfaily to Colindale to
research my MA dissertation.) Another sore point was the scheme was only
available to 18-24 year olds. So much for support for widening participation
and lifelong learning!

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already. :)

True - but a) the Underground ticket machines don't offer this (or even tell
you that you need to go to the very busy manned window); b) I suspect a lot
of ticket staff don't know this and c) I doubt many YPR holders know it
either. Away from this group I've never seen anything telling me this is
possible. (I would test it but I live in a NR area and the season ticket
means I haven't needed to buy a day travelcard in over two years.)

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

SamB wrote:

My university now uses the scheme where you fill in the form online,
which would appear to be easier. Haven't done it myself yet, as I'm
moving abroad. Don't know how it work with regard to authorisation from
the college.

There was some confusion at QMUL this year over whether we'd have online
applications or not - in the end it was done by stamp and post.

What is frustrating is that, if one has a Student Oystercard, it cannot
be renewed, instead, you must get a new one.

Agree - when they were still using separate photocards it was possible to
keep the Oyster and the money on it. Now I have two old Oysters with PAYG
money loaded onto them and my travelcard on a different Oyster. They don't
seem able to transfer the money over.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

SamB wrote:

My university now uses the scheme where you fill in the form online,
which would appear to be easier. Haven't done it myself yet, as I'm
moving abroad. Don't know how it work with regard to authorisation from
the college.

What is frustrating is that, if one has a Student Oystercard, it cannot
be renewed, instead, you must get a new one.


Only some institutions are participating in online Student Oystercard
applications, but I'm sure the number will go up. You have to send them
a digital photo - is that one supplied by your uni, say the same one
they use on your uni student card - or can you provide one of your own?

There's some more information on this scheme he
General introduction -
http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/fares-tick...06/general.asp
FAQs - https://photocard2.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/gotoFaq.do

It does sound a bit wasteful that you can't renew your Student
Oystercard - but that said the system does need to remain as secure and
fraudproof as possible. There would be a massive queue of non-student
lining up to take advantage of any vulnerability and benefit from the
30% discount. The non-renewability probably counters the possibility of
such fraud.

Incidentally, I've never actually inspected a Student Oyster closely -
alongside the photo what else does it have printed on it - name, expiry
date, university attended?


(Tip regarding usenet convention - try and avoid "top-posting" and
instead put your comments underneath the quoted text of the post you're
replying to - it makes everything a bit easier.)

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Nicholas wrote:

(snip)

(Also not being able to use a YPR
when buying travelcards from most outlets is a pain.)

All National Rail ticket offices and London Underground stations
should be able to issue you a Railcard discounted all zones Day
Travelcard at £4.80, but if you are not travelling on National Rail
and not across all zones ) it may be cheaper to just PAYG using
Oyster capping, but you probably know that already. :)

True - but a) the Underground ticket machines don't offer this (or even tell
you that you need to go to the very busy manned window); b) I suspect a lot
of ticket staff don't know this and c) I doubt many YPR holders know it
either. Away from this group I've never seen anything telling me this is
possible. (I would test it but I live in a NR area and the season ticket
means I haven't needed to buy a day travelcard in over two years.)


There's a good reason why YPR holders don't know they can get the
discount from LU - it seems ATOC (who run the railcard schemes) don't
know either!

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

The same or similar wording appears in the terms and conditions
smallprint of the YPR leaflets!

It's for this reason that when I was a YPR holder I never even tried to
get a discounted Travelcard from a Tube ticket office. I really
could've saved some money - as I'm sure many others still could.

After all LU ticket offices may well be ignorant of this because no one
ever asks them for it - if lots of people did I'm sure they'd wise up
quite quickly.

-----
[1] http://www.youngpersons-railcard.co.uk/faq.htm

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Am I alone in thinking the current student discount scheme on TfL is a mess,
both in the application and the discount available?


I don't have any experience of the Student scheme but I can certainly
say it's far better than what went before it - which was no discounts
for students in London at all whatsoever. Cheaper or free travel for
youngsters and discounts for students are really significant gains IMO,
all courtesy of Mr Livingstone, even if I'm not entirely sure aout
whether 100% free bus travel is a good idea.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Nicholas wrote:

On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 20:51:49 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

(snip)

Furthermore the discount is 30% off weekly or longer travelcards when many
students would benefit much more from a discount on daily tickets

Agreed this does seem strange as there are discounted Oyster PAYG
rates for 16-17 and Child Oyster photocards. At least you now entitled
to Travelcards and not 'LT Cards' in the first few years of the scheme
which was a major limitation (not valid on National Rail).


I've also noticed and pondered on why Student Oyster cards don't give
the user discounted PAYG fares. It would of course be helpful for
students who can have odd travelling patterns (not needing to go to uni
everyday etc).
However I guess one could look at it from the TfL revenue perspective -
Travelcards and bus passes are money in the bank, whether the student
uses them heavily or not, and a Student Oyster isn't a ticket itself
but instead an incentive to buy a discounted period pass - a purchase
the student might not otherwise make. So in this sense TfL are acting
like the many companies that try and part students with their cash.

Whilst there may be an element of the 'parting the student from their
money' logic at work here there's also the philanthropic element as
well - cheaper travel for students watching their budget.

Compare it to to many of the other discounted student travel schemes
elsewhere in the country, where a whole term or year of travel needs to
be paid for up front. At least with the Student Oyster you can buy on a
week to week basis.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

Only some institutions are participating in online Student Oystercard
applications, but I'm sure the number will go up. You have to send them
a digital photo - is that one supplied by your uni, say the same one
they use on your uni student card - or can you provide one of your own?

I suspect one would have to provide their own. At a lot of universities it's
the students' union who administer the verification (although I think TfL
are able to subsequently get the Registry to cross reference and confirm
students on the lists) and for many SUs it's easier to get blood out of a
stone than enrolment data from a Registry.

It does sound a bit wasteful that you can't renew your Student
Oystercard - but that said the system does need to remain as secure and
fraudproof as possible. There would be a massive queue of non-student
lining up to take advantage of any vulnerability and benefit from the
30% discount. The non-renewability probably counters the possibility of
such fraud.

I could accept this *if* they would still allow the transfer of balances
over. (Maybe they do - the last time I asked they refused.)

Incidentally, I've never actually inspected a Student Oyster closely -
alongside the photo what else does it have printed on it - name, expiry
date, university attended?

Mine just has my photo and name (with only the first initial), plus on the
back card numbers. The separate photo card from 2004-2005 has "valid from"
and "expires", as well as "College" although this only displays the
institution's TfL code.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

I don't have any experience of the Student scheme but I can certainly
say it's far better than what went before it - which was no discounts
for students in London at all whatsoever. Cheaper or free travel for
youngsters and discounts for students are really significant gains IMO,
all courtesy of Mr Livingstone, even if I'm not entirely sure aout
whether 100% free bus travel is a good idea.

The student discount predates Ken - it was around at least as early as 1998.
Although at first it was very much aimed at full time undergraduates - not
available over the summer and not available to students over 25. There was a
successful campaign on this spearheaded by the President of one particular
UofL college's Students' Union - can anyone guess which? ;)

I think part of the problem here stems from differing perceptions of
students' needs. Whilst I personally find the season ticket works out
cheaper overall (even if I leave aside "frivilous" journeys like popping
into Stratford and Ilford *far* more often than I would if I was buying
tickets on the day), for many students living within reach of the campus the
journeys they make elsewhere seem to (ULU will be doing a survey on this)
work out cheaper. And of course the YPR has raised expectations - indeed I
wonder if the availability of YPR discounted travelcards from Underground
ticket offices would be more widely known if the TfL discount didn't exist.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

I've also noticed and pondered on why Student Oyster cards don't give
the user discounted PAYG fares. It would of course be helpful for
students who can have odd travelling patterns (not needing to go to uni
everyday etc).

More of a reverse in a sense - many students living within walking distance
(or a single bus journey) of the university *and* taking local jobs.
Comparitively few are commuting on a daily basis on a scale where the
discount becomes significant.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Am I alone in thinking the current student discount scheme on TfL is a
mess, both in the application and the discount available?

[snip]

Has anyone else noted similar problems?

Yes. Because of the delays in getting a card., you are also prevented from
buying an annual ticket (and therefore further savings). The card is encoded
to only sell tickets with a discount if they expire before 30 September.
Last year I didn't get my card until part way through October. I asked to
have the ticket backdated to start 1 October so it would allow the discount
(it worked out cheaper for me still), but was told it could not be done. To
add insult to injury the ticket office man tried to sell me a ticket that
would cover me from that day up to 30 September. This worked out more
expensive that the annual! I went to several tube stations and eventually
found someone human who was prepared to do it. Fingers crossed I will find
another one this year (that station no longer has a working ticket office).

Next year will all be done online, lets hope.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

Usefully if and when you manage to get an LU ticket office to sell you
a YPR-discounted all-zones Day Travelcard they actually throw in zones
A-D as well for no extra cost, so that makes it better value to
actually buy said YPR-discounted Travelcard from an LU as opposed to a
National Rail (NR) ticket office! Of course most people wouldn't care
as they're not going out to the far reaches of the Metropolitan Line in
Buckinghamshire, but for those who are it's well worth knowing.

This has been mentioned several times before on this newsgroup by
several people so whilst I haven't done it myself I'm certain it is the
case. In particular see this June 2005 uk.railway thread via Google
Groups [1] (the FAQ numbering on the YPR website I refer to has
obviously been changed around since then).

Why this is the case is a different matter. I guess in part because
it's convenient administratively for LU to throw A-D in for free -
perhaps they've done it unilaterally as it has no impact on NR TOCs
(apart of course from Chiltern Railways given the interavailbility of
LU tickets on their services - though they have a specifically
intertwined relationship with LU, and they have presumable agreed to
it).

I also guess NR don't issue such YPR-discounted Travelcards as zones
A-D is LU territory, which is a shame. It's also possible to buy from
NR ticket offices a _non-discounted_ Day Travelcard that covers zones
A-D - see section L of the NR National Fares Manual (page L1 [2]) - but
seemingly you can only do this for the off-peak Fay Travelcard, not the
peak version.

(Whilst that section mentions Cheap-Day Returns to the Buckinghamshire
Met Line stations I'm sure that only applies to journeys coming from
the other way on the Chiltern Line - i.e. Aylesbury - allowing a change
from a Chiltern train onto a Met Line train if needed to complete the
journey.)


(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

If you're using Oyster PAYG (on either the Met or Chiltern) then you'd
need to touch out at Amersham, likewise coming back from Aylesbury
you'd need to touch in again (if you don't you're subject to a Penalty
Fare, the unresolved journey doesn't contribute to your daily cap and
from November you'll be charged £4 for unresolved journeys). At
Amersham there's gates in operation, at least some of the time, which
might well make jumping off and on the same train a bit of an
impossible mission!

You can of course buy a ticket at Marylebone (or from any NR ticket
office - notionally at least!) from either the boundary of zone 6, or
Amersham, to Aylesbury. The Harrow-on-the-Hill ticket office is run by
LU who might either not be able to do this or struggle to do it, I
don't know.

Not knowing how often you'll have to make the journey, at what time
you'll be setting off and where you're starting from it's hard to say
what you're best option is.

Remember that (in theory at least) you could buy a YPR-discounted Day
Travelcard from an LU ticket office (thus getting the free zones A-D)
in advance.

-----
[1] June 2005 uk.railway thread
http://groups.google.co.uk/group/uk....c2cc172dc479cc
or via shortURL http://tinyurl.com/oposx

[2] National Fares Manual - Section L
http://www.atoc.org/retail/_download...4_Common_L.pdf

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 02:21:10 +0100, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

See this from the FAQ section of the Young Person Railcard website -
the last sentence in particular...
(I've copied it in full for posterity should they ever correct it)

-----
14. Can I use my Railcard for tickets for travel on the London
Underground? All discounted rail tickets bought using your Railcard
routed 'between London termini' are valid for cross-London transfer on
the London Underground. Off-Peak Day Travelcards (All Zones only) are
also available, subject to a minimum fare. Please note, however, that
you cannot use your Railcard to obtain a discount when purchasing
tickets from a London Underground booking office.
-----

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

I think the answer is that you can.


As far as I can work out, the rules for using Railcards at LU ticket
offices are as follows. These have been pieced together from a
combination of anecdotes, personal experience, and educated guesswork,
so if anyone has any official sources of this information, or any
experiences that contradict the below, I'd be interested to hear them.

- At all LU ticket offices, any valid Railcard may be used to purchase
a Zones 1-D ODTC for £4.80 for the holder (and, if the type of
Railcard normally permits it, for accompanying persons).

(If using a Gold Card, one of the following rules may apply:
-you can't buy a discounted ODTC for yourself; or
-if your annual season doesn't include a Z1-6 Travelcard, and if you
want to buy discounted ODTCs for other people, you *must* also buy one
for yourself.)

- At LU ticket offices at stations served by NR (e.g. Blackhorse Road,
Greenford, West Brompton), you can also buy Railcard discounted
Standard/Cheap Day Singles/Returns, for journeys that *only* involve
NR.

(This might not apply on Thameslink/Chiltern, to those journeys where
Tube fares apply even if you use NR.)

- NO other Railcard discounted tickets are available. Not even if you
have a Gold Card issued by LU. So if you turn up at Oxford Circus and
ask for a ticket to Brighton, you can't get a Railcard discount
(although you would have been able to if you'd bought your ticket in
advance at a NR ticket office). Even if you have a Z1-6 annual
Travelcard and just want an extension to Brighton, you don't get a
discount on it.

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

Find out the price of a Boundary Zone 6 to Aylesbury return (not
available online). Compare this to the price of an Amersham-Aylesbury
return plus a pair of zone A-D PAYG singles.

Incidentally, the former would also allow you to travel via High
Wycombe, giving a bit of extra flexibility. And you wouldn't have to
leave the train at Amersham in search of a validator (possibly missing
it and having to wait for the next one).

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I don't have any experience of the Student scheme but I can certainly
say it's far better than what went before it - which was no discounts
for students in London at all whatsoever. Cheaper or free travel for
youngsters and discounts for students are really significant gains IMO,
all courtesy of Mr Livingstone, even if I'm not entirely sure aout
whether 100% free bus travel is a good idea.

The student discount predates Ken - it was around at least as early as 1998.
Although at first it was very much aimed at full time undergraduates - not
available over the summer and not available to students over 25. There was a
successful campaign on this spearheaded by the President of one particular
UofL college's Students' Union - can anyone guess which? ;)


Imperial? And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

I wasn't really following public transport developments very closely
around that time

I confess I totally went out on a limb in giving credit to Mr
Livingstone for the student discount scheme - I knew it was a
relatively recent innovation, and I know he's behind the other
discounts, so I made an erroneous presumption! I wasn't really
following public transport developments very closely around that time.

It's interesting that *if* the student scheme started in '98 - given
that London Transport was controlled by the central government back
then - I wonder if it took the change from the Tories to Labour being
in power for this to get the nod from the Department for Transport (and
possibly the Treasury).


I think part of the problem here stems from differing perceptions of
students' needs. Whilst I personally find the season ticket works out
cheaper overall (even if I leave aside "frivilous" journeys like popping
into Stratford and Ilford *far* more often than I would if I was buying
tickets on the day), for many students living within reach of the campus the
journeys they make elsewhere seem to (ULU will be doing a survey on this)
work out cheaper. And of course the YPR has raised expectations - indeed I
wonder if the availability of YPR discounted travelcards from Underground
ticket offices would be more widely known if the TfL discount didn't exist.


I guess if the TfL student discount didn't exist then you might be
right - the knowledge that you can get YPR-discounted Travelcards at
Underground ticket offices might have a greater spread. The first time
I ever heard that this was possible was on this newsgroup.

Of course if more people knew about it, more people would try and buy
it so more LU ticket offices would be clued up on it.

One thing to bear in mind is that the YPR-discounted Day Travelcard has
in the past been more expensive (if only something like 10p more
expensive) than a zones 1&2 Travelcard - and even now it's only 10p
cheaper. For those students who regularly need nothing more than zones
1&2 they're likely never to have considered it. Likewise students who
live further out who buy zones 1-4 Day Travelcards might be taking a
bus to a rail/Tube station - so they just buy a Day Travelcard from a
newsagent on the day, where the YPR discount definitely isn't
available, so they never really consider it (though they could benefit
by buying it advance from an NR/LU ticket office). And students who
don't need zone 1 can just get the cheaper zones 2-6 Day Travelcard at
£4.30.

And then, of course, there's Oyster PAYG for those who don't need to
use NR. The zones 1&2 daily cap is £4.40, the zones 1-4 daily cap is
£4.90, and depending on the amount of travel the cap might never be
reached.

So perhaps for all of the reason above, combined with the YPR publicity
that denies the discount is available from LU ticket offices, has meant
that word to the wise hasn't spread amongst London's students.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

tkd wrote:

Yes. Because of the delays in getting a card., you are also prevented from
buying an annual ticket (and therefore further savings). The card is
encoded to only sell tickets with a discount if they expire before 30
September. Last year I didn't get my card until part way through October.
I asked to have the ticket backdated to start 1 October so it would allow
the discount (it worked out cheaper for me still), but was told it could
not be done.

Curious - I've purchased annual tickets at Stratford, Vauxhall and Russell
Square. Each time it was some days into October and so they sold me it at an
annual ticket price but running from that day until September 30th. (And I
always had the fares leaflet with me to check.)

To
add insult to injury the ticket office man tried to sell me a ticket that
would cover me from that day up to 30 September. This worked out more
expensive that the annual! I went to several tube stations and eventually
found someone human who was prepared to do it. Fingers crossed I will find
another one this year (that station no longer has a working ticket
office).

Try Russell Square or somewhere similarly near to a university campus.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension
from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return
ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in
then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from
Marylebone/Harrow?)

If you're using Oyster PAYG (on either the Met or Chiltern) then you'd
need to touch out at Amersham, likewise coming back from Aylesbury
you'd need to touch in again (if you don't you're subject to a Penalty
Fare, the unresolved journey doesn't contribute to your daily cap and
from November you'll be charged £4 for unresolved journeys). At
Amersham there's gates in operation, at least some of the time, which
might well make jumping off and on the same train a bit of an
impossible mission!

There are also readers on the London bound platform (at least - I've never
looked on the other two). I have managed to jump off touch in jump on for a
single train before but I agree it's messy.

Not knowing how often you'll have to make the journey, at what time
you'll be setting off and where you're starting from it's hard to say
what you're best option is.

Generally I travel during the day - anytime leaving Baker Street any time
from noon til three. It's a journey probably made on average every three
months.

Remember that (in theory at least) you could buy a YPR-discounted Day
Travelcard from an LU ticket office (thus getting the free zones A-D)
in advance.

Yup - but aside from all the hassle, I have a zones 1-6 season travelcard so
I'm looking at the extension option only.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

The student discount predates Ken - it was around at least as early as
1998.
Although at first it was very much aimed at full time undergraduates -
not
available over the summer and not available to students over 25. There
was a
successful campaign on this spearheaded by the President of one
particular
UofL college's Students' Union - can anyone guess which? ;)

Imperial?

No - Birkbeck.

And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

TfL did a presentation at the NUS London Region day for new SU officers
about the scheme and its history. I *think* 1998 was the first year of
operation but it may have been 1997. I can ask old hands at ULU some time.

The information (and drafts of press letters) that I've seen were focused
very much on the scheme being only open to full time 18-24 * year old
students and not available over summer. A lot of postgraduate, mature and
part-time students found this outrageous - hence the Birkbeck campaign.

* I've no idea if it went under to 16-17 years olds.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

On Sun, 8 Oct 2006, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Has anyone else noted similar problems?

UCL's main problem last year was that it had fewer application forms than
students - at least once the first wave of people who'd messed up their
form went back for a fresh one. Why on earth can't you get the forms from
a tube station, or download them online? I haven't seen the online
registration this year, but that sounds like a step in the right
direction.

UCL's main problem *this* year is that they computerised the annual
re-enrolment process, and in the process decided to throw away all the
data about who funds graduate students, meaning i had to rummage around in
boxes of three-year-old correspondence to find a letter proving that my
research council were actually paying me. I wouldn't want to be the people
in the fees office dealing with seven thousand and some such letters, but
to be honest, i have zero sympathy for them.

Rant over!

tom

--
When you mentioned INSERT-MIND-INPUT ... did they look at you like this?

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

UCL's main problem last year was that it had fewer application forms than
students - at least once the first wave of people who'd messed up their
form went back for a fresh one. Why on earth can't you get the forms from
a tube station, or download them online? I haven't seen the online
registration this year, but that sounds like a step in the right
direction.

Sounds familiar - QMUL has run out of forms before. They're issued on
request (rather than putting out a rack) but we still go through a lot.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:28:10 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

TfL did a presentation at the NUS London Region day for new SU officers
about the scheme and its history. I *think* 1998 was the first year of
operation but it may have been 1997. I can ask old hands at ULU some time.

I have some knowledge of the history of this, having started at
university in 1997 and no doubt fulfilling the definition of a ULU
"old hand" (in fact, I'm given to understand my name is still mud
there, but that's a different story!)

As I recall (it's a bit fuzzy bearing in mind this goes back nearly 10
years, I lived on campus in 97-8 and there's been a lot of water under
the bridge/alcohol down the neck since then!):

The student discount was introduced for the 1998-99 academic year, and
initially only applied to LT Cards, since ATOC wouldn't play ball. The
discount was negotiated with TfL by ULU, and then when it was all
agreed, NUS came along and said "we want our logo all over the place"
despite the fact they did nothing towards it. The aforementioned
campaign extended validity both to students over 25 and for all
students throughout the summer - I think that was after the first year
of the scheme's operation. ATOC finally came on board in 2001 (I
think), and NUS had bugger all to do with that either.

--
James Farrar
. @gmail.com

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Does this also mean I can't get a YPR discount on an Amersham to Aylesbury
ticket (a journey I'm due to make several times).

(Indeed what's the cheapest way to get a good discount on an extension from
a 1-6 travelcard to Aylesbury? PAYG to Amersham, then buy a return ticket at
the office there and on the way back jump onto the platform to touch in then
back onto the train, or a straightforward extension from Marylebone/Harrow?)

As has been said above, you'd need to hop off at amersham to complete
your Oyster journey, and buy a return from there to Aylesbury (£7.00
at present).

On the way home you don't need to worry about the gates being closed,
as they are always open if no-one is manning the gateline, and even if
they are closed, there's three remote readers on the southbound
platform - one by the manual gate, one by the bottom of the footbridge,
and one toward the northern end of the platform (by the bike shed).
Just make sure there's enough PAYG to get moving, and touch it once on
the remote reader, and like magic it'll say "enter" and conveniently
remind you of your remaining balance before you leap like a gazelle
back on your train. Or wait 10 minutes for the next met if you're too
slow.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Yes. Because of the delays in getting a card., you are also prevented
from buying an annual ticket (and therefore further savings). The card is
encoded to only sell tickets with a discount if they expire before 30
September. Last year I didn't get my card until part way through October.
I asked to have the ticket backdated to start 1 October so it would allow
the discount (it worked out cheaper for me still), but was told it could
not be done.

Curious - I've purchased annual tickets at Stratford, Vauxhall and Russell
Square. Each time it was some days into October and so they sold me it at
an annual ticket price but running from that day until September 30th.
(And I always had the fares leaflet with me to check.)

[snip]

Try Russell Square or somewhere similarly near to a university campus.

Thanks. I will try there next time.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

The student discount predates Ken - it was around at least as early as
1998.
Although at first it was very much aimed at full time undergraduates -
not
available over the summer and not available to students over 25. There
was a
successful campaign on this spearheaded by the President of one
particular
UofL college's Students' Union - can anyone guess which? ;)

Imperial?

No - Birkbeck.

I didn't go to university in London, and the university scene in the
metropolis is not my first tongue as it were. But of course Birkbeck
was the prime candidate to lead such a campaign. I heartily approve the
ethos of the aforesaid institution.


And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

TfL did a presentation at the NUS London Region day for new SU officers
about the scheme and its history. I *think* 1998 was the first year of
operation but it may have been 1997. I can ask old hands at ULU some time.

The information (and drafts of press letters) that I've seen were focused
very much on the scheme being only open to full time 18-24 * year old
students and not available over summer. A lot of postgraduate, mature and
part-time students found this outrageous - hence the Birkbeck campaign.

* I've no idea if it went under to 16-17 years olds.

The present scheme isn't open to 16/17 year olds. I think they had to
wait until Livingstone's TfL schemes BICBW.

Some time I'll post a request here on utl for everyone to send in
copies of any old PDFs of TfL's Fares booklets, along with PDFs of the
London Connections map, and put them up on a website (perhaps just for
a few weeks before the copyright lawyers have a fit) so anyone who's
interested could get themselves a copy.

Of course PDFs of these documents are a pretty recent innovation - they
definitely don't go back to '98. One can of course search around the
archives of utl for past discussions pf this scheme, though it can be
time consuming.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

James Farrar wrote:

On Mon, 9 Oct 2006 12:28:10 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

And what you say is a little unclear - was the successful
campaign's aim to get the 30% student discount in the first place or to
get it extended to older students? Does anyone know the exact year when
the scheme did start? If it was to get it extended to older students,
when did this happen?

TfL did a presentation at the NUS London Region day for new SU officers
about the scheme and its history. I *think* 1998 was the first year of
operation but it may have been 1997. I can ask old hands at ULU some time.

I have some knowledge of the history of this, having started at
university in 1997 and no doubt fulfilling the definition of a ULU
"old hand" (in fact, I'm given to understand my name is still mud
there, but that's a different story!)

As I recall (it's a bit fuzzy bearing in mind this goes back nearly 10
years, I lived on campus in 97-8 and there's been a lot of water under
the bridge/alcohol down the neck since then!):

The student discount was introduced for the 1998-99 academic year, and
initially only applied to LT Cards, since ATOC wouldn't play ball. The
discount was negotiated with TfL by ULU, and then when it was all
agreed, NUS came along and said "we want our logo all over the place"
despite the fact they did nothing towards it. The aforementioned
campaign extended validity both to students over 25 and for all
students throughout the summer - I think that was after the first year
of the scheme's operation. ATOC finally came on board in 2001 (I
think), and NUS had bugger all to do with that either.


Thanks for the info. I remember now it was all LT Cards only, as was a
(later ?) scheme for 16/17 year olds, until ATOC eventually go in on
the act.

IIRC the LT Card proper (i.e. proper expensive that is) was withdrawn
but the name lingered on attached to the discounted tickets.

I'm not surprised about the NUS's grab for glory. There's no NUS logo
on the new Student Oyster is there? Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Sounds like you miss your hazy uni days (daze?!) just a little!

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

IIRC the LT Card proper (i.e. proper expensive that is) was withdrawn
but the name lingered on attached to the discounted tickets.

And in a way has been revived for the Oyster cap.

I'm not surprised about the NUS's grab for glory. There's no NUS logo
on the new Student Oyster is there?

Nope - nor on the old card I had. Is it on the application form? (I didn't
stop to check.)

Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Yes - Imperial has a long history of being out (they were a founder member
in 1922, left in 1923 and only came back for brief periods in the 1930s and
1970s - the last was when their President was Trevor Philips). Currently
with the college pulling out of the University of London, some in the SU are
looking towards NUS affiliation as a replacement for the loss of ULU. Were I
a betting man I would not bet on them succeeding.

Of the others, I believe the London Business School isn't affiliated. The
central institutes and activities of the University aren't either - they
don't have much in the way of SUs of their own and ULU leaves NUS
affiliation to the colleges. I've no idea about the FEs and other colleges
in London.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

IIRC the LT Card proper (i.e. proper expensive that is) was withdrawn
but the name lingered on attached to the discounted tickets.

And in a way has been revived for the Oyster cap.


In a way yes, and it has remained so because of intransigence and/or
straightforward inertia.

Though the LT Card was of course the forerunner to the peak Travelcard
but valid on LT only. And it was a pretty price, though much the same
can be said of it's replacement.

The Oyster cap (both peak and off-peak) is at least 50p cheaper than
it's quasi-equivalent Day Travelcard. As well as that being a good
thing in and of itself it also provides a pricing factor which
differentiates itself from the Day Travelcard (a clue to passengers
shall we say).


I'm not surprised about the NUS's grab for glory. There's no NUS logo
on the new Student Oyster is there?

Nope - nor on the old card I had. Is it on the application form? (I didn't
stop to check.)

Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Yes - Imperial has a long history of being out (they were a founder member
in 1922, left in 1923 and only came back for brief periods in the 1930s and
1970s - the last was when their President was Trevor Philips). Currently
with the college pulling out of the University of London, some in the SU are
looking towards NUS affiliation as a replacement for the loss of ULU. Were I
a betting man I would not bet on them succeeding.

I didn't know about either Imperial's non-affiliation to the NUS, nor
it's imminent departure from the UoL. That seems like a big step, but
of course I know nothing of the background - apart from quickly reading
just now that it has gained degree awarding powers. One of my
neighbours is a Prof at Imperial, he's a quiet guy but I'll accost him
some day and ask him about it.

My ill-informed logic suggests that a London SU would do well to have
an affiliation with some umbrella entity. I guess the choice isn't that
great - ULU or NUS (or both). That said AFAICS it's even less of a
choice outside London - NUS or not NUS. Despite all it's faults I can't
help but feel that the benefits of affiliating with the NUS outweigh
the cons - esp. if the SU is out of London, as there's nowhere else to
turn. But I confess I know little about all these machinations.


Of the others, I believe the London Business School isn't affiliated. The
central institutes and activities of the University aren't either - they
don't have much in the way of SUs of their own and ULU leaves NUS
affiliation to the colleges. I've no idea about the FEs and other colleges
in London.

But say at SOAS whilst the SOAS SU isn't NUS affiliated it is
affiliated to ULU?

By the by I've just been most amused by reading the Wikipedia page on
ULU [1] - in particular the semi-coherent section on the handover
party, and what appears to be an arcane yet absurd dispute on when
exactly this should occur. Some of the stereotypes about student
politics are not that far off the mark!


-----
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ULU

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

I also guess NR don't issue such YPR-discounted Travelcards as zones
A-D is LU territory, which is a shame. It's also possible to buy from
NR ticket offices a _non-discounted_ Day Travelcard that covers zones
A-D - see section L of the NR National Fares Manual (page L1 [2]) - but
seemingly you can only do this for the off-peak Fay Travelcard, not the
peak version.


Au contraire. It's entirely possible for an NR Ticket Office to issue a
Travelcard including A-D [1] by doing it as if you'd bought it *from*
Amersham. [2]

It was covered in an issue of Newsrail Express, but said issue appears
to be no longer on the ATOC website.

HTH,

Barry

[1] Unless you want one with a Y-P or Forces Discount, it's a weekday,
and they're using FasTIS, as it erroneously applies the £8 Minimum Fare

[2] In other words, by issuing an Amersham to Zone R1256 Travelcard

OT: London SUs [Was: Student Oyster discount scheme}
 

On 9 Oct 2006 16:07:48 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:

Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:
Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Yes - Imperial has a long history of being out (they were a founder member
in 1922, left in 1923 and only came back for brief periods in the 1930s and
1970s - the last was when their President was Trevor Philips). Currently
with the college pulling out of the University of London, some in the SU are
looking towards NUS affiliation as a replacement for the loss of ULU. Were I
a betting man I would not bet on them succeeding.

I didn't know about either Imperial's non-affiliation to the NUS, nor
it's imminent departure from the UoL. That seems like a big step, but
of course I know nothing of the background - apart from quickly reading
just now that it has gained degree awarding powers. One of my
neighbours is a Prof at Imperial, he's a quiet guy but I'll accost him
some day and ask him about it.

I understand it's a done deal as of last week.

My ill-informed logic suggests that a London SU would do well to have
an affiliation with some umbrella entity. I guess the choice isn't that
great - ULU or NUS (or both). That said AFAICS it's even less of a
choice outside London - NUS or not NUS. Despite all it's faults I can't
help but feel that the benefits of affiliating with the NUS outweigh
the cons - esp. if the SU is out of London, as there's nowhere else to
turn. But I confess I know little about all these machinations.

There have been movements to create an alternative to NUS. NUS tends
to be unpopular because of a perceived closeness to the Labour Party
(backing tuition fees in 1997 really damaged its reputation) and that
it seems to care more about furthering the individual political
careers than about helping the students it is supposed to represent.

The fact that it employs a significant number of staff who can go on
to a university campus during a referendum campaign and spread
barefaced lies to further the cause of affiliation to NUS also doesn't
help.

By the by I've just been most amused by reading the Wikipedia page on
ULU [1] - in particular the semi-coherent section on the handover
party, and what appears to be an arcane yet absurd dispute on when
exactly this should occur. Some of the stereotypes about student
politics are not that far off the mark!

It generally results from which sabbs get their parties organised
first...

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:01:44 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:

Au contraire. It's entirely possible for an NR Ticket Office to issue a
Travelcard including A-D [1] by doing it as if you'd bought it *from*
Amersham. [2]

[2] In other words, by issuing an Amersham to Zone R1256 Travelcard

Would such a ticket be valid to Chesham?

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Mizter T wrote:

Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Yes - Imperial has a long history of being out (they were a founder
member
in 1922, left in 1923 and only came back for brief periods in the 1930s
and
1970s - the last was when their President was Trevor Philips). Currently
with the college pulling out of the University of London, some in the SU
are
looking towards NUS affiliation as a replacement for the loss of ULU.
Were I
a betting man I would not bet on them succeeding.

I didn't know about either Imperial's non-affiliation to the NUS, nor
it's imminent departure from the UoL. That seems like a big step, but
of course I know nothing of the background - apart from quickly reading
just now that it has gained degree awarding powers. One of my
neighbours is a Prof at Imperial, he's a quiet guy but I'll accost him
some day and ask him about it.

It's long and complicated but basically the current Imperial Rector has long
had a vision of Imperial as an independent entity, preferably charging huge
tuition fees, and being the London equivalent of MIT.

My ill-informed logic suggests that a London SU would do well to have
an affiliation with some umbrella entity. I guess the choice isn't that
great - ULU or NUS (or both). That said AFAICS it's even less of a
choice outside London - NUS or not NUS. Despite all it's faults I can't
help but feel that the benefits of affiliating with the NUS outweigh
the cons - esp. if the SU is out of London, as there's nowhere else to
turn. But I confess I know little about all these machinations.

Not totally. There's also the Aldwych Group, which is a collection of the
students' unions in the Russell Group. But there seems to be a running
debate within it about its purpose - some, mainly non NUS affiliates,
(Glasgow, Southampton, Imperial) seem to want it to do more and provide a
national voice as do some where the officers would like to leave NUS (e.g.
Bristol), whereas others seem to just want it as a body to lobby the Russell
Group.

The HE non affiliates are, off the top of my head, Glasgow, St. Andrew's,
Dundee (all of which are in the Coalition for Higher Education Students in
Scotland), Imperial, London Business School, possibly some other small UofL
specialist institutes, Open, Stranmillis, Buckingham, Sunderland and
Northampton. Of these at least two currently have ULU, three have CHESS and
two (Open, Buckingham) have a very specialised student base.

But say at SOAS whilst the SOAS SU isn't NUS affiliated it is
affiliated to ULU?

Erm sort of, although the exact nature of the relationship between College
SU and ULU is rather more complicated.

By the by I've just been most amused by reading the Wikipedia page on
ULU [1] - in particular the semi-coherent section on the handover
party, and what appears to be an arcane yet absurd dispute on when
exactly this should occur. Some of the stereotypes about student
politics are not that far off the mark!

Erm yes... But from my recollection it's usually Queen Mary (my own college)
which has the handover day. That entry looks like a typical product of the
ongoing debate between ULU and UCL.

London SUs [Was: Student Oyster discount scheme}
 

James Farrar wrote:

There have been movements to create an alternative to NUS. NUS tends
to be unpopular because of a perceived closeness to the Labour Party
(backing tuition fees in 1997 really damaged its reputation) and that
it seems to care more about furthering the individual political
careers than about helping the students it is supposed to represent.

That's a part of it, but I think a bigger gripe stems from the high fees and
a strong sense that it isn't good value for money or terribly responsive to
what SUs want. For example the last NUS Conference in March did not even
debate the university lecturers' marking boycott, with the result that the
NUS position was decided by the National Executive and many SUs went public
in their opposition.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

asdf wrote:
On Tue, 10 Oct 2006 02:01:44 +0100, Barry Salter wrote:

Au contraire. It's entirely possible for an NR Ticket Office to issue a
Travelcard including A-D [1] by doing it as if you'd bought it *from*
Amersham. [2]

[2] In other words, by issuing an Amersham to Zone R1256 Travelcard

Would such a ticket be valid to Chesham?

Yes, Chesham is in Zone D

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Barry Salter wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

I also guess NR don't issue such YPR-discounted Travelcards as zones
A-D is LU territory, which is a shame. It's also possible to buy from
NR ticket offices a _non-discounted_ Day Travelcard that covers zones
A-D - see section L of the NR National Fares Manual (page L1 [2]) - but
seemingly you can only do this for the off-peak Fay Travelcard, not the
peak version.


Au contraire. It's entirely possible for an NR Ticket Office to issue a
Travelcard including A-D [1] by doing it as if you'd bought it *from*
Amersham. [2]

It was covered in an issue of Newsrail Express, but said issue appears
to be no longer on the ATOC website.

HTH,

Barry


You've missed my point! You have however raised some other issues I'd
like to comment on. I'll start by clarifying things.

[Pages numbers quoted refer to Section L or F of the NFM].

(1) What I was trying to get across is this - when you buy a railcard
discounted Day Travelcard (YPR or any of the other railcards) what you
get depends on where you bought it:

* Buy at an NR ticket office and you'll get a plain-vanilla zones 1-6
off-peak Day Travelcard.

* Buy at an Underground ticket office and you'll get a zones 1-D
off-peak Day Travelcard - i.e. LU chucks in zones A-D for _free_.

Contributors to utl and uk.railway have stated many times that this is
LU's modus operandi - for example see this 2006 thread [1].

Bizarrely ATOC's publicity for some railcards wrongly denies it's even
possible to buy a railcard-discounted Day Travelcard from an LU ticket
office - see the FAQ answers on the YPR, Family Railcard and Senior
Railcard websites [2] - similar text is included in the T&Cs in the
leaflets for those railcards.


(2) Page L1 details "Through Fares to LU Met Line Stations Outside the
London Fare Zones Area".

The add-on to the off-peak Day Travelcard price of £1.10 makes sense -
it's the difference between the price of a Z1-6 Travelcard (£ 6.30)
and a Z1-D Travelcard (£7.40).

_But_ tickets are issued as point-to-point CDRs - so someone who wanted
to visit several stations in Zones A-D (for example go for a walk
between Amersham and Chesham, or visit both Amersham and Watford)
couldn't do this with an NR point-to-point ticket. Thus they;d get a
less flexible ticket than if they'd purchased a Zones A-D Day
Travelcard from an LU ticket office.

Also it's unclear to me whether a railcard holder could get any
discount on an NR-issued Day Travelcard with an add-on CDR to Chesham.
_If_ it was possible would it be a discounted £4.80 Day Travelcard
plus a discounted CDR at 75p (i.e. third off £1.10) equalling £5.55?
Or would it just be a third off £7.40, so £4.95. (I'm not sure how
rail fares are rounded up or down so apols for any minor errors there).

Given that page K1.8 states "Railcard discounts do not apply to these
LU only tickets" so it appears the above scenarios are not possible.

Even if either was possible, it would still be more expensive than the
railcard reduced Zones 1-D Day Travelcard issued by LU, price £4.80 -
where Zones A-D are thrown in for free.


(3) Ignoring the issue of railcard reductions it would be much easier
if NR ticket offices were just able to issue straightforward Zones 1-D
Day Travelcards. Page K1.7, which is concerned with how to issue zonal
extensions to Travelcard holders, bizarrely re-categorises Zones A-D as
Zones 7-10! It really doesn't have to be this complicated!


(4) The language used on pages K1.3 and K1.4, section K of the NFM is,
I think, a little unclear. Under the "Out-Boundary" heading of the peak
and off-peak Day Travelcard sections it states "Tickets are also
available from the following LU stations on the Met Line at the
following prices: [...]".

To the uninitiated this almost suggests that a passenger can only buy
these tickets from the listed Met Line stations. Of course this is
wrong as any NR ticket office can issue a ticket from any other station
on the network - nonetheless I wouldn't necessarily see the harm in
including a sentence making this explicit. That said, the NFM is an
internal document and I suppose it's written on the presumption that
staff who consult it shouldn't need to be reminded of such things.


[1] Unless you want one with a Y-P or Forces Discount, it's a weekday,
and they're using FasTIS, as it erroneously applies the £8 Minimum Fare


Something that should IMO be corrected ASAP.

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

On 10 Oct 2006 04:48:26 -0700, wrote:

Au contraire. It's entirely possible for an NR Ticket Office to issue a
Travelcard including A-D [1] by doing it as if you'd bought it *from*
Amersham. [2]

[2] In other words, by issuing an Amersham to Zone R1256 Travelcard

Would such a ticket be valid to Chesham?

Yes, Chesham is in Zone D

And would the ticket be valid throughout Zone D? ISTM it would just be
valid to Amersham (and even then, for just one return journey from
Amersham to Moor Park, plus unlimited travel in Z1-6).

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

On Tue, 10 Oct 2006, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:

Mizter T wrote:

Incidentally are there any student
unions in London unaffiliated to the NUS?

Yes - Imperial has a long history of being out (they were a founder
member in 1922, left in 1923 and only came back for brief periods in
the 1930s and 1970s - the last was when their President was Trevor
Philips). Currently with the college pulling out of the University of
London, some in the SU are looking towards NUS affiliation as a
replacement for the loss of ULU.

I didn't know about either Imperial's non-affiliation to the NUS, nor
it's imminent departure from the UoL. That seems like a big step, but
of course I know nothing of the background - apart from quickly reading
just now that it has gained degree awarding powers.

It's long and complicated but basically the current Imperial Rector has long
had a vision of Imperial as an independent entity, preferably charging huge
tuition fees, and being the London equivalent of MIT.

Hmm. Let's see:

Not a proper university ... check
Largely overshadowed by the older real university is the same town ... check
Famously full of nerds ... check

;)

I have to say, the whole University of London business is rather silly.
What on earth is the point of it? It does make sense for the institutions
which are less than full universities (SOAS, LSE, LSHTM, IC, etc) to club
together so that they have a semblance of a multi-faculty organisation,
and in particular to look after the smaller ones, but there's no reason
for UCL, King's, Queen Mary and the like to be roped in.

Of these at least two currently have ULU, three have CHESS

What's CHESS?

tom

--
Who would you help in a fight, Peter van der Linden or Bill Gates?

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

Of these at least two currently have ULU, three have CHESS

What's CHESS?

The Coalition of Higher Education Students in Scotland. It's made up of
several Scottish university SUs with an eye to lobbying Holyrood and other
devolved Scottish bodies. http://www.chessonline.org.uk/

Student Oyster discount scheme
 

asdf wrote:
On 10 Oct 2006 04:48:26 -0700, wrote:

Au contraire. It's entirely possible for an NR Ticket Office to issue a
Travelcard including A-D [1] by doing it as if you'd bought it *from*
Amersham. [2]

[2] In other words, by issuing an Amersham to Zone R1256 Travelcard

Would such a ticket be valid to Chesham?

Yes, Chesham is in Zone D

And would the ticket be valid throughout Zone D? ISTM it would just be
valid to Amersham (and even then, for just one return journey from
Amersham to Moor Park, plus unlimited travel in Z1-6).

Well strictly speaking its valid for unlimited journeys between
Amersham and zones 1-6 (so you could go to Amersham, pop to
Rickmansworth, then back to Amersham before going home - if you really
want to) but you'd have no trouble getting to Chesham also. This issue
with NR tickets is well known to staff.