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#61
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#62
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Anonymouse wrote:
On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 15:53:52 +0100, Richard wrote: [my rant about 35% fare increase] Did you not read the press release? Fares are not - on average - increasing. I did, but I didn't notice that statement the first time I read it. I am surprised though - maybe my assumption was wrong, but a significant proportion of journeys, particularly at peak times, are straight into zone 1, and these are the fares that see the biggest rises. Where the rise is less, or there's a decrease, it seems to me that it's a journey with a significant radial part, "around" a zone, or indeed across London, so that a fare determined by distance can be a lot more than one based on the number of zones travelled through. Good luck to those with such a journey! I can see how, considering every pair of stations, there is on average no increase, but I would have thought that the most popular journeys have more increases than decreases. If this is not the case, then I apologise and take it back - except I still wonder about the use of rail-only not-really-zonal fares when proper integration should be the goal. I wonder why TravelWatch consider that "complexity is reduced significantly"? Unless the fares are marketed as zonal, which it seems they cannot be completely, I'm not sure how the average passenger will notice a difference. Richard. |
#63
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Anonymouse wrote:
snipp-ex Did you not read the press release? Fares are not - on average - increasing. That depends how they calculate the average. I can well believe that, if you write down all the different combinations of fares before and after the change, and take the mean or median difference, it will be close to zero. I can equally well believe that most of the fares that they are reducing are sold in very small numbers, and most of the fares that they are increasing are sold in very large numbers - so the average fare paid will be substantially higher under the new scheme. -- Stevie D \\\\\ ///// Bringing dating agencies to the \\\\\\\__X__/////// common hedgehog since 2001 - "HedgeHugs" ___\\\\\\\'/ \'///////_____________________________________________ |
#64
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On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 22:41:05 +0100, Stevie D wrote:
Anonymouse wrote: snipp-ex Did you not read the press release? Fares are not - on average - increasing. That depends how they calculate the average. I can well believe that, if you write down all the different combinations of fares before and after the change, and take the mean or median difference, it will be close to zero. I can equally well believe that most of the fares that they are reducing are sold in very small numbers, and most of the fares that they are increasing are sold in very large numbers - so the average fare paid will be substantially higher under the new scheme. You might be able to believe that but do you have any evidence? A |
#65
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#66
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#67
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Richard J. wrote:
wrote: The cheap day return fares are completely pointless though as a travelcard would be cheaper. So the actual price would be £4.90 for CJ-FP and £6.30 for Orp-WH. Clapham Junction - Finsbury Park should really be £4.30 - a Z2-6 ODTC (CJ to Highbury and Islington - perhaps changing at Willesden X, then Victoria Line) According to the TfL Journey Planner: Clapham Junction - Vauxhall, then Victoria Line to Finsbury Park: 31 - 37 minutes. Clapham Junction - Willesden J.(or Richmond) - Highbury & Islington, then Victoria Line to Finsbury Park: 57 - 83 minutes. On that basis, the natural route is definitely via zone 1. I agree. If one wanted to go the West London Line - North London Line - Victoria Line route avoiding zone 1 then the theoretical Train/Tube CDR would cost £5.80, so the off-peak zones 2-6 Day Travelcard at £4.30 is what one would actually buy. What would be interesting is whether a plain-vanilla *single* Train/Tube ticket could actually be issued for that same journey. The single Train/Tube fare for zones 2&3 is £3.40 - could one actually buy this for a journey to Finsbury Park from Clapham Junction? I guess it would merely show "U23" as the destination - but would it be issued as "route via Willesden Junction"? Would anyone of the ticket office staff actually sell this ticket to a punter? |
#68
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Mizter T wrote:
In terms of NR adopting Oyster PAYG I guess how this will work is that for any A to B journey a fare will be set according to the most likely route taken - i.e. which zones will a passenger on this journey pass through. Then if the passenger goes a more roundabout route, avoiding zone 1 for example, if they touch-in their Oyster at the interchange points they'll be charged for the cheaper journey. And yet the Underground has been slow to adopt this, for examples such as Harrow on the Hill to Hammersmith (particularly relevant this weekend because of engineering works on the route involving changing at Baker Street) as well as possibly the North London Line - will travelcard on Oyster holders get charged extensions for a "most likely route" involving zones they don't have, even if they've travelled within their own zones. (Also how is a "single fare for any route" compatible with a strategy aimed at encouraging people to bypass zone 1 on orbital routes, using cheaper fares as an incentive for potentially longer journeys?) It's too late for me to start working out elaborate examples. However I think in many cases a passenger would encounter a set of gates on their journey - say when changing from NR to the Undergound at termini - that means this isn't actually as much of an issue as some think. I'm not so sure - a good number of interchanges have NR and Underground all together behind the gatelines - e.g. Barking, Stratford, Moorgate, Farringdon, Highbury & Islington, Willesden Junction, Ealing Broadway, Wimbledon, Richmond, New Cross & Gate... to name but several. And some of these (particular Stratford, bar the Jubilee Line) are so mixed together that there's no real way to put barriers in. Off the top of my head I can think of one situation where it would seem that Oyster PAYG couldn't cope with working out what route passengers had taken. Peckham Rye is in zone 2 and has a half-hourly service via Lewisham to Dartford. It also has very regular services to London Bridge. Let's say a passenger is travelling to Lewisham - as the passenger can change at London Bridge onto a Lewisham-bound train without encountering barriers the system won't have any record of whether their route was via London Bridge - and hence zone 1 - or not. Another obvious one are the three Lewisham to Dartford lines - how does the system know if someone's travelled via Lewisham (zone 2/3), Dartford (outside the zones) or the track between Crayford and Barnehurst or Slade Green (all within zone 6) shown on the map but possibly not having a very good service (I have no idea) providing all four combinations? Perhaps the solution for this is to require passengers using PAYG to touch-in at every interchange station. For many journeys this might not be strictly necessary for the system to determine the route taken, but for others it would be necessary. This could be explained to passengers thus "Please touch-in at every interchange to ensure you recieve the best fare". If they didn't touch-in at the interchanges then by default there'd be charged the more expensive fare. Is this practical though? Some interchanges get very busy and readers are not easily located. Try doing this on the eastbound Central/Ilford-bound platform at Stratford in the rush hour when you're also trying to work out just which stations the train about to pull out calls at! There are I'm sure people working on this now at TfL - I just hope that they have a good idea of what they're doing and are going to be consistant in it's implementation, and they don't bog it up. So how do they handle it at present? |
#69
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Stevie D wrote:
Anonymouse wrote: snipp-ex Did you not read the press release? Fares are not - on average - increasing. That depends how they calculate the average. I can well believe that, if you write down all the different combinations of fares before and after the change, and take the mean or median difference, it will be close to zero. I can equally well believe that most of the fares that they are reducing are sold in very small numbers, and most of the fares that they are increasing are sold in very large numbers - so the average fare paid will be substantially higher under the new scheme. It all depends on the journey being made. Here's a few examples from my neck of the woods: Enfield Town (Zone 5) to London Liverpool Street (Zone 1) currently costs £3.50 for a Single, £4.30 for a Cheap Day Return, and £5.80 for a Standard Day Return. Under the new structure, those will go up to £3.80 Single, £4.70 Cheap Day Return, £7.20 Standard Day Return. (Inflation busting increases of 8.6%, 9.3% and a massive 24.1%, respectively). Oh dear...Not a good start. Let's try Enfield Town to Zone 1, including tube, instead. Current fares are £6.50 Single, £10.30 Cheap Day Return, £11.80 Standard Day Return. Under the new fares, those go DOWN to £5.80 Single, £8.70 Cheap Day Return, £11.20 Standard Day Return. (Reductions of 10.8%, 15.5% and 5.1%, respectively). Now let's go for a local journey: Silver Street (Zone 4) to Enfield Town (Zone 5). Currently this is £2.00 Single, £2.60 Cheap Day Return, £3.00 Standard Day Return. Under the new structure, these change to £1.90 Single, £2.80 Cheap Day Return, £3.30 Standard Day Return. (5% Reduction, 7.7% Increase and 10% Increase, respectively). At the end of the day, it's all swings and roundabouts, and there will be some winners and some losers, the latter generally where the fares have been kept artificially low by NSE/the TOCs. Cheers, Barry |
#70
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![]() "Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... On Sat, 21 Oct 2006 08:19:01 +0100, Phil Richards wrote: Neil Williams wrote: Plus the scenario when the bus gets terminated short of the destination advertised on the blinds on the front at the time you boarded! I know drivers are supposed to issue a transfer ticket, but I'm not sure that happens often in practice. So if using PAYG Oyster you lose out by paying for a 2nd ride. I was on a 24 on Thursday and got booted off at Trafalgar Square as the route controller decided our bus was to turn at Westminster. There was another bus behind running through but it was only when someone said "do we have to pay again" that the controller instructed everyone from the previous bus just to get on and not validate or pay. No transfer ticket was issued that I could see. I think this aspect of PAYG "policy" needs a little more explanation because a transfer may happen at a point where there is no official to answer a question and the first bus may have driven off. When this happened to me (an 8 that terminated at Berkeley Sq.) I validated on the next bus and wasn't charged. ISTR the validator displayed a weird message - something about a travelcard, even though I *only* have PAYG on my card. David A Stocks |
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