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Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
The Rail Minister Tom Harris has announced that the National Rail (NR)
network in London is to adopt a zonal fares system. This will apply to all rail journeys that are wholly within the London Travelcard zones (that is zones 1 - 6). This change, which will come into effect from January 2007, has been in the pipeline for a long time. It paves the way for Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) to be implemented across the whole National Rail network in London (currently Oyster PAYG is only accepted on a limited number of NR routes). There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. A full table of the fares is included in the DfT press release. Full DfT press release via the Government News Network: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...leaseID=235656 or via shorturl http://tinyurl.com/y8sm6v Also... BBC News "Train network to adopt Tube zones" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6065874.stm Reuters - "London's rail fare structure to be simplified" http://today.reuters.co.uk/news/arti...-C2-Business-5 or via shorturl http://tinyurl.com/y8wazr |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. 1-6 CDR including Tube gbp9.60. Why set such nonsensical fares? An ODTC would be substantially cheaper. Neil |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
this seems to mean big fare rises for some:
e.g. Surbiton to Waterloo cheap day return: now £4.20, zone 1-6 rail only CDR: £5.70 |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Neil Williams wrote:
Mizter T wrote: There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. 1-6 CDR including Tube gbp9.60. Why set such nonsensical fares? An ODTC would be substantially cheaper. Neil It's not nonsense - you've just misread it. The price you've quoted is for an standard day return, *not* a cheap day return. This would only be issued for travel before 0930 on weekdays. A zones 1-6 CDR Train/Tube fare is £5.70. These prices are cheaper than the current Z1-6 peak and off-peak Day Travelcard fares. I presume (but don't have any information to hand) that the Day Travelcard prices will increase next year. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
Neil Williams wrote: Mizter T wrote: There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. 1-6 CDR including Tube gbp9.60. Why set such nonsensical fares? An ODTC would be substantially cheaper. Neil It's not nonsense - you've just misread it. The price you've quoted is for an standard day return, *not* a cheap day return. This would only be issued for travel before 0930 on weekdays. A zones 1-6 CDR Train/Tube fare is £5.70. No, the price he quoted is for a CDR - it's in the "cheap day returns" column. The price for a peak zone 1-6 train-tube return, in the column immediately to the left of that one, would be £13.20. -- Stephen It's never too late, as a wise person once said. I think it was Kylie. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
Neil Williams wrote: Mizter T wrote: There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. 1-6 CDR including Tube gbp9.60. Why set such nonsensical fares? An ODTC would be substantially cheaper. Neil It's not nonsense - you've just misread it. The price you've quoted is for an standard day return, *not* a cheap day return. This would only be issued for travel before 0930 on weekdays. A zones 1-6 CDR Train/Tube fare is £5.70. These prices are cheaper than the current Z1-6 peak and off-peak Day Travelcard fares. I presume (but don't have any information to hand) that the Day Travelcard prices will increase next year. I fully retract my comments above and most humbly apologise to you Neil - the one who's misreading things is me, and I eat my words above completely. As you rightly point out, a Z1-6 Train/Tube CDR will apparently cost £9.60 - which seems utterly bizarre. An off-peak Day Travelcard will obviously be cheaper. I can't see the logic of creating such a fare if it's never going to be issued. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
The price you've quoted is for an standard day return, *not* a cheap day return. This would only be issued for travel before 0930 on weekdays. A zones 1-6 CDR Train/Tube fare is £5.70. No, it isn't. A zones 1-6 CDR train *only* fare is 5.70 - they're in separate tables. I have included the train-tube-train fares below, and every one of the CDRs are nonsensical because the appropriate ODTC is cheaper by quite a margin. Peak return 1-6 is gbp11.20 in that table, which must also be approaching the Peak Day Travelcard fare. No of Zones Peak single Peak Return Cheap Day Rtn Adult Child Adult Child Adult Child 1 £4.00 £2.00 £7.60 £3.80 £6.70 £2.00 12 £4.10 £2.00 £7.70 £3.80 £7.00 £2.00 123 £4.70 £2.30 £8.60 £4.30 £7.60 £2.00 1234 £5.10 £2.50 £9.30 £4.60 £8.00 £2.00 12345 £5.80 £2.90 £11.20 £5.60 £8.70 £2.00 123456 £6.80 £3.40 £13.20 £6.60 £9.70 £2.00 2,3,4,5 or 6 £3.00 £1.50 £5.60 £2.80 £5.40 £2.00 23,34,45,56 £3.40 £1.70 £6.30 £3.10 £5.80 £2.00 234,345,456 £3.80 £1.90 £7.00 £3.50 £6.20 £2.00 2345, 3456 £4.20 £2.10 £7.70 £3.80 £6.60 £2.00 23456 £4.60 £2.30 £8.60 £4.30 £7.00 £2.00 Neil |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Neil Williams wrote:
Mizter T wrote: The price you've quoted is for an standard day return, *not* a cheap day return. This would only be issued for travel before 0930 on weekdays. A zones 1-6 CDR Train/Tube fare is £5.70. No, it isn't. A zones 1-6 CDR train *only* fare is 5.70 - they're in separate tables. I have included the train-tube-train fares below, and every one of the CDRs are nonsensical because the appropriate ODTC is cheaper by quite a margin. Peak return 1-6 is gbp11.20 in that table, which must also be approaching the Peak Day Travelcard fare. Please see my abject apology elsewhere on this thread! I completely agree, it appears on first glance (well, in my case second glance - once I've worked out which table I should be looking at!) to be totally nonsensical. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Neil Williams wrote:
(snip) [...] A zones 1-6 CDR train *only* fare is 5.70 - they're in separate tables. I have included the train-tube-train fares below, and every one of the CDRs are nonsensical because the appropriate ODTC is cheaper by quite a margin. Peak return 1-6 is gbp11.20 in that table, which must also be approaching the Peak Day Travelcard fare. I take a small crumb of comfort in the fact that it's not just me who misreads things! A Train/Tube peak return isn't £11.20 as you state above but instead costs even more - it's £13.20 !!! I wonder if the Train/Tube peak return prices quoted aren't in fact the new Peak Day Travelcard prices for 2007? |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
I am very glad to hear they are keeping the single/return/CDR fairs for
overground journeys. It may seem silly to have two sets of fares but why should I pay underground fares for overground journeys? I do not get the same level of service (eg my trains start later in the morning, finish earlier at night and are far less regular) so it seems unreasonable for me to pay the same as someone who lives by a tube station and gets all those benefits. Happy! |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
The Rail Minister Tom Harris has announced that the National Rail (NR) network in London is to adopt a zonal fares system. This will apply to all rail journeys that are wholly within the London Travelcard zones (that is zones 1 - 6). This change, which will come into effect from January 2007, has been in the pipeline for a long time. It paves the way for Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) to be implemented across the whole National Rail network in London (currently Oyster PAYG is only accepted on a limited number of NR routes). There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. A full table of the fares is included in the DfT press release. Will zonal rail tickets show origin/destination stations like they do at present and therefore a return be A to B & back to A only? Or could I buy a Zone 1 to 5 Rail only CDR say to go from Victoria to East Croydon and later in the day Bromley South back to Victoria? -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
The Rail Minister Tom Harris has announced that the National Rail (NR) network in London is to adopt a zonal fares system. This will apply to all rail journeys that are wholly within the London Travelcard zones (that is zones 1 - 6). (snip) There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. (snip) Having digested the press release a little I've an observation and a query. My observation is regarding rail-only season tickets - some had wondered about whether they had a future, but this announcement confirms they're here to stay. This is one of the footnotes from the DfT press release [1]: "Operators will be required to set rail-only seasons on a similar zonal basis from January 2010." i.e. rail-only season ticket prices will be set on a zonal basis, but they will remain cheaper than a Travelcard covering the same zones. My query is whether these tickets will be issued on a point-to-point basis - i.e. with specifically named origin and destination stations - or issued Tube-style where only the zonal validity is printed on the ticket. The latter allows for more flexibility for the passenger, but would appear to be far more prone to abuse. I suspect NR tickets will continue to issued on a point-to-point basis. Indeed Southern already use a zonal system for setting the fares on their routes, and they have done since January 2005. However they continue to issue tickets with on a named point-to-point basis. (See the FarePal page on the Southern website for more info on this [2].) [1] DfT press release: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...leaseID=235656 or via shorturl http://tinyurl.com/y8sm6v [2] Southern FarePal http://www.southernrailway.com/main.php?page_id=126 |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Phil Richards wrote:
Mizter T wrote: The Rail Minister Tom Harris has announced that the National Rail (NR) network in London is to adopt a zonal fares system. This will apply to all rail journeys that are wholly within the London Travelcard zones (that is zones 1 - 6). This change, which will come into effect from January 2007, has been in the pipeline for a long time. It paves the way for Oyster Pay-as-you-go (PAYG) to be implemented across the whole National Rail network in London (currently Oyster PAYG is only accepted on a limited number of NR routes). There will be single, return and cheap day return (CDR) tickets available. Many have suggested that a zonal ticketing system will do away with CDRs and will be pleased to hear they are to stay. A full table of the fares is included in the DfT press release. Will zonal rail tickets show origin/destination stations like they do at present and therefore a return be A to B & back to A only? Or could I buy a Zone 1 to 5 Rail only CDR say to go from Victoria to East Croydon and later in the day Bromley South back to Victoria? A good, and as yet unanswered question. I reckon that tickets will continue to be issued from and to specific named stations, because as much of the suburban network is ungated there'd be more of an opportunity for fraudulent re-use of tickets if they were issued merely with their zonal validity printed on them. This is of course to the inconvenience of passenger flexibility. However when Oyster PAYG is eventually rolled out across the whole NR network in London then that will provide that flexibilty - e.g. for the Victoria - East Croydon then Bromley South - Victoria journey you speak of. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote: This change, which will come into effect from January 2007, has been in the pipeline for a long time. This is a bit short public notice to actually introduce it isn't it? I know its been in the pipe for some time, but I would have thought a step change like this would have been subject to a longer notice period. Or has there been one - *public* notice period I mean, as in displayed at stations - in which case I missed it if there has. Don't get me wrong, I'm in favour, it should have been brought in in 1907 not 2007 - and there were probably a lesser number of train companies then. No doubt someone will go and count them now. -- Nick |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
On 19 Oct 2006 09:12:52 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote:
Full DfT press release via the Government News Network: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...leaseID=235656 or via shorturl http://tinyurl.com/y8sm6v "There are over 330 rail stations within the Travelcard zones, and at present each of 97,300 different station-to-station combinations has its own set of fares." Does this add up? 330 stations can come in 54285 combinations, or 108570 permuations (which may be more appropriate as the fares may not be the same in both directions(?)) . If there were 441 stations there would be 97020 combinations, while 442 stations would give 97461, but 442 is a lot more than the wording "over 330" would suggest. 312 stations would give 97032 permuations, 313 stations 97656, but even assuming there are appropriate numbers of stations treated as groups for ticketing, this isn't 97300 - though 97032 could lead to a typo. Obviously many of these fares will be the same amount, as no fare will be GBP900, so they aren't deleting ones of the same amount from the total. So what am I failing to see? Perhaps an effect of the zonal fares already in place, so (say) Waddon, West Croydon and Carshalton Beeches (etc) don't have their own sets of fares? -- Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:19:43 +0100, Phil Richards wrote:
I am very glad to hear they are keeping the single/return/CDR fairs for overground journeys. It may seem silly to have two sets of fares but why should I pay underground fares for overground journeys? I do not get the same level of service (eg my trains start later in the morning, finish earlier at night and are far less regular) so it seems unreasonable for me to pay the same as someone who lives by a tube station and gets all those benefits. In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. And what's particularly unfair is that a journey involving a Rail line followed by a Tube line costs more than one involving a Rail line followed by a Rail line, or a Tube line followed by a Tube line. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
On 19 Oct 2006 11:26:03 -0700, D7666 wrote:
This change, which will come into effect from January 2007, has been in the pipeline for a long time. This is a bit short public notice to actually introduce it isn't it? I know its been in the pipe for some time, but I would have thought a step change like this would have been subject to a longer notice period. Or has there been one - *public* notice period I mean, as in displayed at stations - in which case I missed it if there has. In fairness, what action are you going to take as a result of the announcement that takes more than 12 weeks? Move house? |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
On 19 Oct 2006 09:44:28 -0700, Mizter T wrote:
As you rightly point out, a Z1-6 Train/Tube CDR will apparently cost £9.60 - which seems utterly bizarre. An off-peak Day Travelcard will obviously be cheaper. I can't see the logic of creating such a fare if it's never going to be issued. Some of the CDRs could, with Railcard/Privilege discounts, be brought down to below the price of a Travelcard, which has a £4.80 minimum (at least for Railcards - I don't know much about Priv). So a few might end up being issued (although this probably still doesn't apply to the £9.60 ones). |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Will zonal rail tickets show origin/destination stations like they do at
present and therefore a return be A to B & back to A only? Or could I buy a Zone 1 to 5 Rail only CDR say to go from Victoria to East Croydon and later in the day Bromley South back to Victoria? www.nationalrail.co.uk confirms that although zonal tickets will be issued they will still be point to point and I quote "We are considering whether in future we could make buying tickets in London simpler still by offering tickets to specific zonal destinations. However at present this is not practical." Surely it's easy to make pratical if the tube can. Basically the system will simplify fares without the zonal travel flexibility and so in the short term just means fare raises of untold proportions for most people...a real "win" for everyone! If this was a truly zonal system this would have been great. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
asdf wrote:
On Thu, 19 Oct 2006 18:19:43 +0100, Phil Richards wrote: In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. And what's particularly unfair is that a journey involving a Rail line followed by a Tube line costs more than one involving a Rail line followed by a Rail line, or a Tube line followed by a Tube line. I completely agree. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
A Train/Tube peak return isn't £11.20 as you state above but instead costs even more - it's £13.20 !!! I sit corrected ;) I wonder if the Train/Tube peak return prices quoted aren't in fact the new Peak Day Travelcard prices for 2007? Maybe. I strongly hope, however, that the CDR prices aren't the planned new ODTC prices, as that's a hefty, and in my mind inappropriate, increase. Unless, perhaps, the ODTC is to be abandoned completely in favour of Pre-Pay? Neil |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Phil Richards wrote:
In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. Certainly most other cities abroad where a zonal fares applies, a ride on the metro costs the same as surface rail for the equivalent zonal journey. Agreed. This might result in an increase in rail fares, but also a decrease in Tube fares, which are getting a bit silly. What we *ideally* want is a true Verbundtarif (joint tariff), where you buy a public transport single, return or Travelcard and may use as many or as few modes to complete your journey as necessary. To do anything else is to penalise those who don't have a choice but to do so. However, the offensively high tube fares[1] and relatively low (especially on Oyster) bus fares are incompatible in this respect, so perhaps a free bus ride with every Tube ticket but not vice-versa would work. [1] I realise that this is, at least in part, a capacity management issue that doesn't exist in most other countries. Neil |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
Indeed Southern already use a zonal system for setting the fares on their routes, and they have done since January 2005. However they continue to issue tickets with on a named point-to-point basis. (See the FarePal page on the Southern website for more info on this [2].) Merseytravel, which I regard as one of the more forward-thinking PTEs, issues all rail-only seasons on a zonal basis. Indeed, these are new tickets, which mark a bit of a departure from the old principle of that PTE of almost everything being cross-modal (there is, for example, no bus-only day ticket, though there is a bus-only season). Neil |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Neil Williams wrote:
Phil Richards wrote: In all fairness rail and tube fares ought to be the same. Certainly most other cities abroad where a zonal fares applies, a ride on the metro costs the same as surface rail for the equivalent zonal journey. Agreed. This might result in an increase in rail fares, but also a decrease in Tube fares, which are getting a bit silly. Tube cash fares yes are silly and are getting sillier with the Jan 2007 changes. We all know the reasons behind that ;-) However, the offensively high tube fares[1] and relatively low (especially on Oyster) bus fares are incompatible in this respect, so perhaps a free bus ride with every Tube ticket but not vice-versa would work. IMO bus fares ought to be kept down below tube/rail simply because they are generally slower and for many they are happy to put up with that in return for cheaper travel costs. Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses would be a better solution. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Neil Williams wrote:
(snip) I wonder if the Train/Tube peak return prices quoted aren't in fact the new Peak Day Travelcard prices for 2007? Maybe. I strongly hope, however, that the CDR prices aren't the planned new ODTC prices, as that's a hefty, and in my mind inappropriate, increase. Unless, perhaps, the ODTC is to be abandoned completely in favour of Pre-Pay? I'm certain the Train/Tube CDR prices quoted are _not_ the new off-peak Day Travelcard prices. If they were there'd be a riot. And I'd be leading it! The Day Travelcard is not being abandoned in favour of Oyster PAYG (Pre-Pay). The Travelcard is a legally protected fare - it can't just vanish like that. I guess that when the whole NR network in London has got round to accepting Oyster PAYG the in-boundary Day Travelcard might be phased out - the logic being that capped Oyster PAYG would offer the same functionality - but such a situation is still a long way off. As asdf has pointed out elsewhere on this thread, perhaps said fares exist merely so they can be issued in a discounted manner (with railcard or staff priv) - nontheless it still seem right. To be honest I'm not really clued up on priv fares, but as asdf rightly points out the railcard-discounted Day Travelcard (currently at £4.80 - maybe it'll cost 10 or 20p more next year) would still be the cheaper option in almost all cases. In my mind the mystery of these high Train/Tube fares remains. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
wrote:
this seems to mean big fare rises for some: e.g. Surbiton to Waterloo cheap day return: now £4.20, zone 1-6 rail only CDR: £5.70 This BBC London webpage include a fares table comparing the current and future single (SDS), standard return (SDR) and cheap day return (CDR) fares between a number of stations. http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Phil Richards wrote:
Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses would be a better solution. Agreed. Alternatively, it could be sold as a benefit of Oyster, as it is with the Dutch Strippenkaart[1] - say, once you touch in for any bus journey, you may touch in for free an unlimited number of further times on different buses[2] within an hour, two hours or whatever. If that offers a quick return, so be it - I don't think they'd lose a lot from people doing that. It would also be completely immune to fraud, unlike a single ticket which could be passed on. As it's a disadvantage to have to tack a bus journey onto the end of a Tube or rail journey, you could also either heavily discount the bus fare if you touch in and out for a Tube or rail journey 1/2 hours before or after the bus journey, or make it completely free in such a situation. [1] Actually, as singles are just 2- or 3-strip Strippenkaarten at an inflated price, it applies to those as well, but the principle is there. [2] to prevent 'pass-back' fraud, i.e. the same Oyster being passed out of the window to another pax and used again on the same bus. Neil |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
embers25 wrote:
Will zonal rail tickets show origin/destination stations like they do at present and therefore a return be A to B & back to A only? Or could I buy a Zone 1 to 5 Rail only CDR say to go from Victoria to East Croydon and later in the day Bromley South back to Victoria? www.nationalrail.co.uk confirms that although zonal tickets will be issued they will still be point to point and I quote "We are considering whether in future we could make buying tickets in London simpler still by offering tickets to specific zonal destinations. However at present this is not practical." Surely it's easy to make pratical if the tube can. Basically the system will simplify fares without the zonal travel flexibility and so in the short term just means fare raises of untold proportions for most people...a real "win" for everyone! If this was a truly zonal system this would have been great. As I pointed out elsewhere I think the issue here is that if NR tickets were issued on a zone-to-zone basis there'd be a subject to misuse. The Underground by and large deals with this problem as most of it's stations are gated, and the gates write information to the magnetic strip on the ticket when you pass through them, plus once you've completed your journey the gate at the end swallows your ticket on most occasions (thought sometimes you it gives you back your ticket so as to allow a permitted onward journey using that ticket - e.g. when changing between the two Hammersmith stations). I'm pretty sure that this is the thinking behind tickets continuing to have specified origin and destination stations Anyway once Oyster PAYG eventually launches on the whole NR network in London then passengers using Oyster will have the full flexibility you desire. This fare revision is a necessary step so as to iron out fares inconsistencies before Oyster PAYG comes to NR. If Oyster PAYG was made available on NR using zonal fares whilst NR could still price their printed fares then it'd be a nightmare for passengers to work out what would be the cheapest option - it'd be an inconsistent mess. Also don't start propagating the myth that this means fare rises all round, it doesn't - some fares will rise, some will fall. See this comparison table for examples: http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml Getting annoyed that 'your' fare will go up is fine. But extrapolating from that the false conclusion that all fares have gone up is just plain wrong. AlsWith regards to this take a look at this footnote that was included in the DfT press release: ----- 4. The prices for the new zonal peak singles and returns (and from 2010, seasons) will remain subject to the limits set by fares regulation. As a result, London commuters will on average pay no more using the new zonal fares than they would had current fares continued an been increased as permitted by regulation. Operators will not make a net gain from the change in these fares. ----- |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote:
The Rail Minister Tom Harris has announced that the National Rail (NR) network in London is to adopt a zonal fares system. This will apply to all rail journeys that are wholly within the London Travelcard zones (that is zones 1 - 6). (snip) Full DfT press release via the Government News Network: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...leaseID=235656 or via shorturl http://tinyurl.com/y8sm6v My attempt to trim the length of the full URL of that DfT press release by removing what I thought were extraneous strings on the end obviously hasn't worked. For reference the full URL of the DfT press release on the GNN is: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...partment=False The tinyurl I gave will however redirect to the full URL given above. In addition the National Rail website now includes some information about these fares changes: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_...onalFares.html And lastly this article on the BBC London website provides a comparison table of before and after fares: http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Neil Williams wrote:
Phil Richards wrote: Again what I don't like about bus fares in London (& elsewhere in this country) is that you need separate tickets for each ride if you need to change. Again a £1 fare valid for say two hours on any number of buses would be a better solution. Agreed. Alternatively, it could be sold as a benefit of Oyster, as it is with the Dutch Strippenkaart[1] - say, once you touch in for any bus journey, you may touch in for free an unlimited number of further times on different buses[2] within an hour, two hours or whatever. If that offers a quick return, so be it - I don't think they'd lose a lot from people doing that. It would also be completely immune to fraud, unlike a single ticket which could be passed on. As it's a disadvantage to have to tack a bus journey onto the end of a Tube or rail journey, you could also either heavily discount the bus fare if you touch in and out for a Tube or rail journey 1/2 hours before or after the bus journey, or make it completely free in such a situation. [1] Actually, as singles are just 2- or 3-strip Strippenkaarten at an inflated price, it applies to those as well, but the principle is there. [2] to prevent 'pass-back' fraud, i.e. the same Oyster being passed out of the window to another pax and used again on the same bus. You don't need to worry about 'pass back' fraud with Oyster - any Oyster card can only be validated _once_ on any one bus. If you try and do it again you get an error with a double-beep noise. This is also the case on bendy buses - once you've touched-in on one reader you can't then touch-in on any of the others so you can't accidentally pay twice. (I guess it might be helpful for people who're unsure if they'd successfully touched in or not if there was some different error noise that signified 'this card has already been validated on this bus', but that however is a somewhat different issue). |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Arthur Figgis wrote:
On 19 Oct 2006 09:12:52 -0700, "Mizter T" wrote: Full DfT press release via the Government News Network: http://www.gnn.gov.uk/environment/fu...leaseID=235656 or via shorturl http://tinyurl.com/y8sm6v "There are over 330 rail stations within the Travelcard zones, and at present each of 97,300 different station-to-station combinations has its own set of fares." Does this add up? snip So what am I failing to see? Perhaps an effect of the zonal fares already in place, so (say) Waddon, West Croydon and Carshalton Beeches (etc) don't have their own sets of fares? The way the fares system currently works is that each station is either "fully-priced", in which case it has fares to local stations and *every* other "fully-priced" station on the network, or it's a related station, which will only have local fares, and for anything else you'll need to look at the appropriate "fully-priced" station. So, for example, Birmingham and Norwich are "fully-priced" stations, but Highbridge (Somerset) is a related station, priced to/from Bridgwater, so if you were looking for a fare from Birmingham to Highbridge, you'd *actually* look at Birmingham to Bridgwater. If, on the other hand, you were looking for a fare from Highbridge to Yatton, you'd look it up under Highbridge itself, as that's a purely local journey. So it's entirely possible that the figure of 97,300 combinations is correct but it'd take a while to check ;) HTH, Barry |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
"Mizter T" wrote This BBC London webpage include a fares table comparing the current and future single (SDS), standard return (SDR) and cheap day return (CDR) fares between a number of stations. http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml Any prizes for guessing where that photograph was taken? I think it's Scotland. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
"John Salmon" wrote in message ... "Mizter T" wrote This BBC London webpage include a fares table comparing the current and future single (SDS), standard return (SDR) and cheap day return (CDR) fares between a number of stations. http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml Any prizes for guessing where that photograph was taken? I think it's Scotland. Might be Glasgow Queen Street, but I'm not sure. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Barry Salter wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: "There are over 330 rail stations within the Travelcard zones, and at present each of 97,300 different station-to-station combinations has its own set of fares." Does this add up? So what am I failing to see? Perhaps an effect of the zonal fares already in place, so (say) Waddon, West Croydon and Carshalton Beeches (etc) don't have their own sets of fares? The way the fares system currently works is that each station is either "fully-priced", in which case it has fares to local stations and *every* other "fully-priced" station on the network, or it's a related station, which will only have local fares, and for anything else you'll need to look at the appropriate "fully-priced" station. (snip) So it's entirely possible that the figure of 97,300 combinations is correct but it'd take a while to check ;) I wondered if some pairs were not priced because of the stupidity of making a journey - e.g. Walthamstow Central to Walthamstow Queens Road. However, the Trainline comes back with two routes for this: via Hackney Downs Seven Sisters walk South Tottenham - 85 minutes - £4.90 CDS or walk - 17 minutes - no price so perhaps that's not it! |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Mizter T wrote: wrote: this seems to mean big fare rises for some: e.g. Surbiton to Waterloo cheap day return: now £4.20, zone 1-6 rail only CDR: £5.70 This BBC London webpage include a fares table comparing the current and future single (SDS), standard return (SDR) and cheap day return (CDR) fares between a number of stations. http://www.bbc.co.uk/london/content/..._feature.shtml Notice how in almost all cases on this list, while there may be savings for singles and peak returns, the cheap day return is more expensive. Furthermore, none of these illustrate the rail-tube-rail fares where the fare rises are pretty steep for cheap day returns - e.g. Clapham Junction to Finsbury Park (zone 2 to zone 2) goes from £4.40 cheap day return to £7.00 cheap day return, Orpington to West Hampstead (zone 6 to zone 2) goes from £5.50 cheap day return to £9.70 cheap day return. The principle on cross London rail-tube-rail journeys has most recently been that the tube part is free. Now the rail-tube-rail fare is being set at the same level as the rail-tube fare. As cheap day returns are those used by off-peak travellers, travellers at the weekend, passengers travelling for discretionary reasons - surely the revenue that the railways would want to seek, this is a very bad move and I don't see how London TravelWatch can claim this is good news. Jonathan |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Harry G wrote:
Barry Salter wrote: Arthur Figgis wrote: "There are over 330 rail stations within the Travelcard zones, and at present each of 97,300 different station-to-station combinations has its own set of fares." Does this add up? So what am I failing to see? Perhaps an effect of the zonal fares already in place, so (say) Waddon, West Croydon and Carshalton Beeches (etc) don't have their own sets of fares? The way the fares system currently works is that each station is either "fully-priced", in which case it has fares to local stations and *every* other "fully-priced" station on the network, or it's a related station, which will only have local fares, and for anything else you'll need to look at the appropriate "fully-priced" station. (snip) So it's entirely possible that the figure of 97,300 combinations is correct but it'd take a while to check ;) I wondered if some pairs were not priced because of the stupidity of making a journey - e.g. Walthamstow Central to Walthamstow Queens Road. However, the Trainline comes back with two routes for this: via Hackney Downs Seven Sisters walk South Tottenham - 85 minutes - £4.90 CDS or walk - 17 minutes - no price If you're able bodied then it shouldn't take you any longer than 10 minutes at the most to walk it. |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
In article , Arthur Figgis
] writes "There are over 330 rail stations within the Travelcard zones, and at present each of 97,300 different station-to-station combinations has its own set of fares." Does this add up? 330 stations can come in 54285 combinations, or 108570 permuations (which may be more appropriate as the fares may not be the same in both directions(?)) . Perhaps it's a mix of these: 54285 combinations, plus 43015 cases where the fare is different in each direction. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
Some of the CDRs could, with Railcard/Privilege discounts, be brought
down to below the price of a Travelcard, which has a £4.80 minimum (at least for Railcards - I don't know much about Priv). So a few might end up being issued (although this probably still doesn't apply to the £9.60 ones) A Priv Travelcard is only avaliable in Z1-6 and is 75p (IIRC) for Kids, and £2 for adults. -- The presence of this signature shows that this message has been scanned for misplaced apostrophes by the common sense scanner. However, some apostrophes may not be included where required due to boredom, gross negligence, budget cuts, incompetence, stupidity or just plain laziness. http://www.railwaysonline.co.uk |
Rail network in London to adopt zonal fares
On Fri, 20 Oct 2006 15:53:09 GMT, S Wright
wrote: Some of the CDRs could, with Railcard/Privilege discounts, be brought down to below the price of a Travelcard, which has a £4.80 minimum (at least for Railcards - I don't know much about Priv). So a few might end up being issued (although this probably still doesn't apply to the £9.60 ones) A Priv Travelcard is only avaliable in Z1-6 and is 75p (IIRC) for Kids, and £2 for adults. But that is only for use on LU though. There is not a Priv Travelcard that works on National Rail but I did once persuade a booking clerk to issue one (many years ago) ;-) -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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