"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
...

It is very odd to see trains effectively travelling through the middle
of a ticket hall but given the position of the Jubilee Line tracks there
was little option. Believe me we went through many, many variants of
Stratford's design when it was at the detailed planning stage.
--
Paul C


Do you know how/why they come up with the idea of having to pass through two
gatelines to reach the Jubilee line from the street entrance?

Paul S

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:22:49 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

It is very odd to see trains effectively travelling through the middle
of a ticket hall but given the position of the Jubilee Line tracks there
was little option. Believe me we went through many, many variants of
Stratford's design when it was at the detailed planning stage.
--
Paul C


Do you know how/why they come up with the idea of having to pass through two
gatelines to reach the Jubilee line from the street entrance?

runs away and screams

There was a policy decision that said the JLE was to be gated off from
other lines (where feasible). Originally Stratford was going to have a
completely separate route from the street level ticket hall to the JL
platforms. The route where the interchange gateline would only have been
accessible from BR / DLR / Central Line platforms.

I think LU was unable to secure the land to construct the bridge link to
provide the street to JL unique link (I think Railtrack were being
particularly awkward) so we ended up with the mezzanine "up and over"
design. We argued like hell about the interchange gateline as it is
unique - it took a long time for people to realise the coding and
validation issues it would create. However once it was drawn on the
architect's plan it was going to be built.

And as for plans drawn up for other locations to create the same
"barriered off from everything" approach you would not believe the
nonsenses we had to deal with.

I still disagree with the idea to this day!
--
Paul C


Admits to working for London Underground!

"Peter Masson" wrote in message
...

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Paul Scott wrote:

and an additional westbound Central line
platfom allowing exit on both sides of the train.

Presumably the best way they can see to reduce overcrowding on the 3-5
island. On the NR side the platform space is scarily narrow and very
difficult to move along at peak hours.

It looks as though it will give much better interchange from the westbound
Central Line to DLR (to Poplar, etc, when DLR moves to its new platforms),
Jubilee Line, DLR (Stratford International - Canning Town line) and buses,
while retaining good interchange from the Shenfield line to the Central
Line.

This change I did not expect but will be welcome when it appears, despite
the mess the station will be in while all this happens. There is a lot of
movement from the w/b Central Line trains in the mornings and most of that
goes down to the Jubilee and NLL platforms. AFAICT very few people take the
mainline to Liverpool St from there.

Nick



--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

Dave Arquati wrote:

This must be the first LU example of two platform faces for capacity
reasons rather than for terminating trains (DLR already offering both
intentions in the same station at Canary Wharf).

I'd have to look it up, but do *all* the existing two platform faces only
exist at what were built to be terminals?

Being unfamiliar with Stratford, I'm trying to understand the level
changes in the diagram. My impression from the diagrams is that currently
access to the Jubilee line is directly from the existing ticket hall, but
access to the current NLL/new DLR cannot be, because the tracks pass over
the hall. So how do you reach the new DLR platforms?

In addition to what everyone else has said, the Central Line dives back
underground very early - almost literally at the end of the platform and the
westbound hole is right next to the current DLR bay (platform 4). Will there
be a direct route from the old DLR platform to the new ones? The current
interchange with the stopping services is very convenient and redirecting
passengers through tunnels (or worse still, trying to use Central Line
trains as a bridge) would undermine a lot of improvements.

Nick Pedley wrote:

There is a lot of movement from the w/b Central Line trains in the
mornings and most of that goes down to the Jubilee and NLL platforms.
AFAICT very few people take the mainline to Liverpool St from there.

There's not really much point - once you factor in time waiting on the
platform at Stratford it's about as quick to stay on the Central Line to
Liverpool Street.

On Oct 23, 10:34 pm, Paul Corfield wrote:
runs away and screams

There was a policy decision that said the JLE was to be gated off from
other lines (where feasible). Originally Stratford was going to have a
completely separate route from the street level ticket hall to the JL
platforms. The route where the interchange gateline would only have been
accessible from BR / DLR / Central Line platforms.

I remember asking about this in 2004, and the answer given was that the
JLE was gated specifically as an anti-fraud measure, to ensure that
anyone coming off the GE main line or the NLL would have a valid
ticket.

Will the introduction of zonal fares result in more of these
'interchange' gatelines, to keep people from buying out-of-zone
tickets, boarding at ungated NR stations and then using the various
unbarriered gaps to 'get in' to the LU system?


I think LU was unable to secure the land to construct the bridge link to
provide the street to JL unique link (I think Railtrack were being
particularly awkward) so we ended up with the mezzanine "up and over"
design. We argued like hell about the interchange gateline as it is
unique - it took a long time for people to realise the coding and
validation issues it would create. However once it was drawn on the
architect's plan it was going to be built.

I always thought that there was supposed to be an extra entrance on the
west side of the station, where the internal ticket office was - the
empty part of the mezzanine seemed to confirm this. Now, knowing that
the mezzanine will have direct access to the ungated DLR, I suspect
that this 'interchange' gateline will be lauded as joined-up foresight!
;-)


And as for plans drawn up for other locations to create the same
"barriered off from everything" approach you would not believe the
nonsenses we had to deal with.

Is this why West Ham has so many long straight passageways? Were there
plans to stick a gateline in the overbridge on top of the NLL
platforms?


I still disagree with the idea to this day!

Agreed! It still feels 'wrong' to pass through a gateline when heading
for the Central Line or to the street.

Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 22:22:49 +0100, "Paul Scott"
wrote:


"Paul Corfield" wrote in message
.. .

It is very odd to see trains effectively travelling through the middle
of a ticket hall but given the position of the Jubilee Line tracks there
was little option. Believe me we went through many, many variants of
Stratford's design when it was at the detailed planning stage.
--
Paul C


Do you know how/why they come up with the idea of having to pass through two
gatelines to reach the Jubilee line from the street entrance?

runs away and screams

There was a policy decision that said the JLE was to be gated off from
other lines (where feasible). Originally Stratford was going to have a
completely separate route from the street level ticket hall to the JL
platforms. The route where the interchange gateline would only have been
accessible from BR / DLR / Central Line platforms.

I think LU was unable to secure the land to construct the bridge link to
provide the street to JL unique link (I think Railtrack were being
particularly awkward) so we ended up with the mezzanine "up and over"
design. We argued like hell about the interchange gateline as it is
unique - it took a long time for people to realise the coding and
validation issues it would create. However once it was drawn on the
architect's plan it was going to be built.

And as for plans drawn up for other locations to create the same
"barriered off from everything" approach you would not believe the
nonsenses we had to deal with.

I still disagree with the idea to this day!
--
Paul C


Ouch - a sore point then!

Thanks for explaining the Stratford two-barrier anomaly from the
inside. I always presumed it was just a revenue protection exercise -
well, it is, but I didn't realise that some in LU had the idea of
trying to roll this out elsewhere.

The situation at Stratford does mean that when you go from the street
to the JLE platforms through the two gatelines you do end up with a
slightly confusing Oyster journey history where Stratford is mentioned
twice (though the fare charged is correct of course).

I can see some advantages to the idea - after all interchange stations
such as Stratford can mean the LU network is wide open to fare-evaders
who start at an open NR station. But as there are so many possible
points of entry guarding against them all would be wholly impractical.

Regarding the discussion in another thread - having "internal
gatelines" such as at Stratford could arguably address some (but only
some) of the issues which will be encountered when PAYG is fully rolled
out on NR, though it would by no means be a complete solution and would
only be practical at some locations. In fact it would be a mess and
very impractical.

Is the "barriered off from everything" logic at play when it comes to
the gateline between Southwark (JLE) and Waterloo East, or is it a case
of planning permission and/or passenger flow issues that means that the
street entrance to Southwark tube doesn't double as an entrance to
Waterloo East?

It seems that the demand to use the Southwark street entrance by
Waterloo East passengers was so great that NR-only season ticket
holders can actually get a pass merely to let them in and out of the
Southwark station barriers so the can get out the street entrance (I'm
certain I've seen some notice to this effect displayed at Southwark but
I've never read anything else about it anywhere).

Mizter T wrote:

Paul Corfield wrote:

There was a policy decision that said the JLE was to be gated off from
other lines (where feasible). Originally Stratford was going to have a
completely separate route from the street level ticket hall to the JL
platforms. The route where the interchange gateline would only have been
accessible from BR / DLR / Central Line platforms.

How would this have worked for the North London Line northbound?

Regarding the discussion in another thread - having "internal
gatelines" such as at Stratford could arguably address some (but only
some) of the issues which will be encountered when PAYG is fully rolled
out on NR, though it would by no means be a complete solution and would
only be practical at some locations. In fact it would be a mess and
very impractical.

Indeed - look no further than the rest of Stratford. Any attempt to even
paint a "this PAYG territory" line would be so utterly messy. As it's the
station I usually use to enter the tube network it's no wonder I find the
Oyster "always touch in at the start and touch out at the end of 'your
journey'" system a mess.

Currently by my reckoning the only journeys where an interchange at
Stratford can change the number of zones used is travelling from the Central
Line east of Stratford to the District in zone 3 or further east. You can
either have a direct interchange at Mile End (zone 2) or travel via
Stratford to West Ham (all zone 3). The existance of the North London Line
for this route, with PAYG valid there, means that at the moment the barriers
are nominally meaningless and I believe the PAYG fare assumes zone 3
interchanges. But when the NLL is cut back to Stratford one will *only* be
able to avoid zone 2 on that route if you go through those gates - could TfL
operate this as a tester to see if the system can recognise different routes
at different prices?

"Tim Roll-Pickering" wrote in message
...
Dave Arquati wrote:

This must be the first LU example of two platform faces for capacity
reasons rather than for terminating trains (DLR already offering both
intentions in the same station at Canary Wharf).

I'd have to look it up, but do *all* the existing two platform faces only
exist at what were built to be terminals?


There is a double platform face on the eastbound District at Barking, LU
train doors open on both sides, on the north side allowing interchange with
the Gospel Oak/Barking line bay platform.

Paul

wrote:

Thanks - it certainly is. Interesting to see the old subway will be
brought back into use and extended. I wonder if this will include
re-opening the original ticket hall - at least as an exit.

They're re-opening the old subway which used to be the only access to
platforms 9-13 as they used to be, but not the long subway under
platform 3/5, which used to be the access to all of the other
platforms. People who complain about the long walk between 5 and 10
must have either never used the station in those days, or forgotten
about it.

Stratford station was a real dump in the '70s and '80s, but it used to
absolutely fascinate me. I remember when I first went through the
place, being puzzled by what seemed to be a four-platform station, with
the platforms numbered 3,5,6 and 8. then one day I got out, and
discovered the low-level 1 and 2, 2 reached directly from the old
subway, and 1 over the old concrete footbridge, still there I think,
alongside the new one. Later I found 9, 10 (now 10a) and 11. There
was no way of getting to 12 and 13, it was an island then, as the
subway had been long bricked up beyond the stairs to 11.

The entrance was just behind where the tank loco is now displayed, and
there was a subway under Great Eastern Road, which came up inside the
shopping centre. This was the only normal entrance to the shopping
centre at this end, there was a door, roughly where the present ones
are, but that was just a fire exit. When you walked out of the old
booking hall, and up the stairs there were the remains of two old
posters high up about Easter train services. The exit must have been
at street level before the exit subway was built.

Platforms 1 and 2 were served by North Woolwich - Tottenham Hale DMUs,
previously the service had run to Palace Gates until about 1964, but I
did'nt know the station then. In the '80s the line between Dalston and
Stratford was re-opened to passengers, and a Camden Road - North
Woolwich service provided. How things have changed on the North
Woolwich line since then! The line between Stratford and Tottenham
Hale was then served only by a rush-hour shuttle service until this was
withdrawn, and Lea Bridge station closed, in 1985. One of the
destinations shown on the dark blue and white sign by the entrance to
the low-level platforms was 'THE DOCKS'

After you passed through the ticket barrier you tured sharp left into
the long subway under 3/5. Straight ahead was the subway now proposed
to be re-opened, leading to the higher numbered platforms. No trains
normally served these platforms, except or one or two of the Tottenham
Hale shuttles, which used 11, the others ran into the low-level, via
High Meads. What is now 9 was not a platform face, there railings
aling the edge of it, and some old GER buildings. What is now 10 was
9, what is now 10a was 10, 11 was as it is now and 12/13 were a long
disused island, with, as I said previously, no access. I really wanted
to get down this subway and onto 9-11, but the staff on the barrier
would never allow me down there; I didn't know anout the odd one or two
trains still serving 11.

One day the tracks through 6 an 8 were closed, and the trains were
serving 9 and 10, as they then were. This was my chance. This subway
was filthy, and looked like it had been disuded for decades. There was
lots of 'stuff' dumped there, including more blue and white signs.
There was also one on the wall pointing to platforms 10-13, with '13'
painted over to read '11' There were various doors leading off this
subway, I'm still not sure where they went, there were two ancient
goods lifts on the platforms above, which I couldn't find the bottom
end of; maye they came out behind these doors; parcels office maybe?
There was another door, leading into a room full of electronic
equipment; relay room and telephone exchange under the signalbox?
There was also another passage leaing off to the East, still in use by
staff, I think this may have led to the depot.

The building between platforms 10 (now 10a) and 11 was in use by staff
at each end, but the centre section was roofless; had it been the
victim of a fire at sometime, or wartime bombing? What was it
originally?

Before the stairs up to platform 11 there were two disused staircases
which had been capped with concrete at platform level, near the
roofless building; these stairways were also full of rubbish.

Later, it was decided to re-open platforn 12, and to run services on
the Cambridge line. The platform was re-built, and the wall in the
subway demolished, and the staircase up to the platform re-built. The
capped-off stairways were boarded over at subway level, and the subway
cleaned up somewhat. From the time of this work it was possible for
me to walk along the subway any time I wanted to. one day there was a
pile of rubbish which had been cleared out of one of the side rooms.
There was an old wooden board with the remains of a timetable showing
services to Hertford East from the long disused platform 12. The
reburbishment of the Cambridge line platforms took ages, and must hve
cost a fortune, but the services didn't last long; I'm not surprised,
BR didn't seem to want anybody to know about these services, there
didn't seem to be any timetables posted anywhere, and the subway still
looked distinctly disused.

The high-level platforms which were still in use had blue and white
glass name signs, which had originally been fluorescent lit, but the
lighting had nong ceased to function, and some of the signs had been
broken, and replaced by ones made of plywood, hadboard or some similar
material. There had previously been illuminated cubes with blue and
white glass platform numbers; I remember seeing these in use, but they
too were later dumped in the dis-used subway.

About twenty years ago the never used bay platform 4 was brought into
use for the DLR; it has been shortened somewhat from its original
length. The other bay, platform 7, remains unused to this day, the
Fenchurch Street electtric shuttle servce for which they were intended
never having been introduced, and Bow Road station closed in 1949.

I'm glad to see that the Cambridge line platforms still have a place in
the proposed upgrade; I hope we they will see a proper service again,
and the re-opening of Lea Bridge station.

Are the large areas at each end of the mezzanine level, beyond the
stairs, to serve some useful purpose at last? They're totally wasted
space at the moment.

For such an important station it's amasing how dilapidated parts of
Stratford became. The nice new station of 1949 was looking distinctly
past its best by the early '70s. Does anybody have any pictures of the
station prior to the rebuilding for the Central Line extension, and the
Shenfield electrification?