Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

According to the free London papers, Haringey council picked up over
£3 million in fines from parking offences, bus-lane offences and
box-junction offences in Lordship Lane alone in the period of
2004-2005. It does not give a breakdown of parking offences, bus-lane
offences and box-junction offences. Lordship Lane forms part of the
A109, running between Wood Green at the High Road (A105) to Tottenham
High Road (A1010) crossing the A1080 and the A10.

1. Parking. Now from what I know of this road, there is a CPZ in Wood
Green and this covers the roads coming off Lordship Lane up to a point
but then they end pretty soon after. Where they apply, they do so on
Sundays as well and sometimes as late as 10pm. I don't recall what, if
any, the parking restrictions are like on Lordship Lane itself and how
come they may have picked up so much from this road.

2. Bus-lane and Box Junction. My guess is that this is the A1080
Boreham Road / Westbury Road / The Roundway junction (and also B155
Downhills Road).

Traffic heading Eastbound along Lordship Lane has to negotiate two
traffic lights here, the first being the junction of Boerham Road, a
one way street heading generally North East with right-turn exit only.
There is a box junction at this section, and traffic tends to fill in
all the available space (before getting held up by the traffic light
ahead) thus traffic coming from the West (Lordship Lane) often has
nowhere to go during the green signal phase. There is a bus-lane on
Lordship Lane - not sure what its hours are.

I am not familiar with Lordship Lane east of the A10. I do know there
is a school there.

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

Earl Purple wrote:

2. Bus-lane and Box Junction. My guess is that this is the A1080
Boreham Road / Westbury Road / The Roundway junction (and also B155
Downhills Road).

Google Maps suggests that the only box junction in Lordship Lane is at
Redvers Road, although Windows Live Local shows another at Boreham Road.
Curiously the one at Boreham Road occupies the the whole junction, although
only the southern half serves any purpose (apart from revenue gathering).

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

John Rowland wrote:
Earl Purple wrote:

2. Bus-lane and Box Junction. My guess is that this is the A1080
Boreham Road / Westbury Road / The Roundway junction (and also B155
Downhills Road).

Google Maps suggests that the only box junction in Lordship Lane is at
Redvers Road, although Windows Live Local shows another at Boreham Road.
Curiously the one at Boreham Road occupies the the whole junction, although
only the southern half serves any purpose (apart from revenue gathering).

I did forget about the one with Redvers Road. I recall that is also
exit only (onto Lordship Lane) and there is a bus garage there and I
think a car park too. Of course it is close to the traffic light so
Westbound traffic might get caught out if they start across into an
empty space and someone from the Redvers Road jumps out in front of
them (either turning left into the space or blocking the way to turn
right).

The problem with box junctions is that you cannot wait until the exit
is clear, you go when you think there will be an exit, i.e. traffic
will not naturally cross the box junction one at a time. Now if the
person in front goes just past the junction and stops (even if there is
space in front of them) whose fault is it?


Now if the vehicle in front of you happens

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

Earl Purple wrote:
According to the free London papers, Haringey council picked up over
£3 million in fines from parking offences, bus-lane offences and
box-junction offences in Lordship Lane alone in the period of
2004-2005.

What the article failed to point out was that Haringey council would
have made exactly £0 if all the drivers had actually obeyed the rules.
Councils can't use cameras as revenue-raisers unless drivers let them.

Patrick

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :

What the article failed to point out was that Haringey council would
have made exactly £0 if all the drivers had actually obeyed the rules.
Councils can't use cameras as revenue-raisers unless drivers let them.

May I refer you to the thread in uk.transport where drivers HAVE been
issued FPNs for (legitimately) crossing a bus lane?

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

Brimstone wrote:

wrote:
Earl Purple wrote:
According to the free London papers, Haringey council picked up over
£3 million in fines from parking offences, bus-lane offences and
box-junction offences in Lordship Lane alone in the period of
2004-2005.

What the article failed to point out was that Haringey council would
have made exactly £0 if all the drivers had actually obeyed the rules.
Councils can't use cameras as revenue-raisers unless drivers let
them.

Out of interest did the article state whether the cameras had reduced
congestion in the area? There has been discussion on this topic in
another thread on here, with some posters agreeing that in general box
junction cameras do reduce congestion, but Nik Morgan (NM) suggesting
this is not the case.

David

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

Adrian wrote:
) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
saying :

What the article failed to point out was that Haringey council would
have made exactly £0 if all the drivers had actually obeyed the rules.
Councils can't use cameras as revenue-raisers unless drivers let them.

May I refer you to the thread in uk.transport where drivers HAVE been
issued FPNs for (legitimately) crossing a bus lane?

Surely the drivers would have challenged them. You are allowed to cross
over a bus lane, for example on Holloway Road where there are parking
bays that requires you to cross a bus lane to reach them (in force 7am
to 7pm).

It seems strange that you are not allowed to drive in the bus lane but
are allowed to hold up buses by parking up.

I have seen other bus lanes where it is permitted to park but not to
drive. One of those is in Haringey on Turnpike Lane eastbound (part of
the A504).

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

"Earl Purple" wrote in message
oups.com...

John Rowland wrote:
Earl Purple wrote:

2. Bus-lane and Box Junction. My guess is that this is the A1080
Boreham Road / Westbury Road / The Roundway junction (and also B155
Downhills Road).

Google Maps suggests that the only box junction in Lordship Lane is at
Redvers Road, although Windows Live Local shows another at Boreham Road.
Curiously the one at Boreham Road occupies the the whole junction,
although
only the southern half serves any purpose (apart from revenue gathering).

I did forget about the one with Redvers Road. I recall that is also
exit only (onto Lordship Lane) and there is a bus garage there and I
think a car park too. Of course it is close to the traffic light so
Westbound traffic might get caught out if they start across into an
empty space and someone from the Redvers Road jumps out in front of
them (either turning left into the space or blocking the way to turn
right).

The problem with box junctions is that you cannot wait until the exit
is clear, you go when you think there will be an exit, i.e. traffic
will not naturally cross the box junction one at a time. Now if the
person in front goes just past the junction and stops (even if there is
space in front of them) whose fault is it?

If one's exit is not clear (as in the example above), one is at fault for
entering the box junction. That's the whole idea of them. When there is
obviously stopped traffic ahead, drivers *should* drive over one car at a
time. Drivers should only enter when they can see enough space past the
junction for them to fit in to. Anything else should result in a ticket :)

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

d wrote:
If one's exit is not clear (as in the example above), one is at fault for
entering the box junction. That's the whole idea of them. When there is
obviously stopped traffic ahead, drivers *should* drive over one car at a
time. Drivers should only enter when they can see enough space past the
junction for them to fit in to. Anything else should result in a ticket :)

Assuming that the box like most is at a set of traffic lights, if
traffic only crossed one at a time, i.e. one in the box at the time,
you would not get the correct flow through the traffic light.

That there is space ahead for both the driver in front and yourself
should be enough reason to allow you to progress across behind them.
Now if they decide to stop just in front of the box instead of moving
ahead into the space available to them, they have caused you to block
needlessly.

In traffic queueing situations it is totally wrong to leave an
excessive gap between you and the vehicle in front. The highway code
tells you not to. But so many do and it really really annoys me when
the person in front of me is doing that.

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

"Earl Purple" wrote in message
oups.com...

d wrote:
If one's exit is not clear (as in the example above), one is at fault for
entering the box junction. That's the whole idea of them. When there is
obviously stopped traffic ahead, drivers *should* drive over one car at a
time. Drivers should only enter when they can see enough space past the
junction for them to fit in to. Anything else should result in a ticket
:)

Assuming that the box like most is at a set of traffic lights, if
traffic only crossed one at a time, i.e. one in the box at the time,
you would not get the correct flow through the traffic light.

That there is space ahead for both the driver in front and yourself
should be enough reason to allow you to progress across behind them.
Now if they decide to stop just in front of the box instead of moving
ahead into the space available to them, they have caused you to block
needlessly.

No, going when you can't see space for you on the other side is needlessly
blocking the junction. If traffic is stop-start, as it would be in such a
situation, sending one car over the junction at a time is the only way to
ensure the junction is not blocked, as blocking the junction screws up
everyone else. When driving you can't assume anything.

In traffic queueing situations it is totally wrong to leave an
excessive gap between you and the vehicle in front. The highway code
tells you not to. But so many do and it really really annoys me when
the person in front of me is doing that.

The highway code also tells you to not block box junctions... Two wrongs
don't make a right.

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

No, going when you can't see space for you on the other side is
needlessly blocking the junction. If traffic is stop-start, as it
would be in such a situation, sending one car over the junction at a
time is the only way to ensure the junction is not blocked, as
blocking the junction screws up everyone else. When driving you
can't assume anything.

Obviously when traffic is stop-start you don't enter the box junction until
you can leave it. But if traffic moving at full speed across box junctions
refused to enter until their exit was clear, the capacity of the road
network would be slashed, and gridlock would result, the very thing that box
junctions are supposed to prevent.

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

No, going when you can't see space for you on the other side is
needlessly blocking the junction. If traffic is stop-start, as it
would be in such a situation, sending one car over the junction at a
time is the only way to ensure the junction is not blocked, as
blocking the junction screws up everyone else. When driving you
can't assume anything.

Obviously when traffic is stop-start you don't enter the box junction
until you can leave it. But if traffic moving at full speed across box
junctions refused to enter until their exit was clear, the capacity of the
road network would be slashed, and gridlock would result, the very thing
that box junctions are supposed to prevent.

Which is what I said :)

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

d wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in message
...

Obviously when traffic is stop-start you don't enter the box junction
until you can leave it. But if traffic moving at full speed across box
junctions refused to enter until their exit was clear, the capacity of the
road network would be slashed, and gridlock would result, the very thing
that box junctions are supposed to prevent.

Which is what I said :)

No you said you shouldn't enter the box until the driver in front has
exited because then your exit is not clear.

If the traffic is flowing but not at such a speed that the box covers
the 2-second gap you should continue across in a normal manner.

I was referring to a situation where the driver in front clears the box
then stops needlessly leaving you stranded.

Now if the rules were enforced via officers at the scene, they might
use common sense. But as long as it is enforced by automatic cameras,
it is obvious which driver would be penalised.

Lordship Lane N17 (and N22) - £3M in fines in one year!
 

Earl Purple wrote:
d wrote:
"John Rowland" wrote in
message ...

Obviously when traffic is stop-start you don't enter the box
junction until you can leave it. But if traffic moving at full
speed across box junctions refused to enter until their exit was
clear, the capacity of the road network would be slashed, and
gridlock would result, the very thing that box junctions are
supposed to prevent.

Which is what I said :)

No you said you shouldn't enter the box until the driver in front has
exited because then your exit is not clear.

If the traffic is flowing but not at such a speed that the box covers
the 2-second gap you should continue across in a normal manner.

I was referring to a situation where the driver in front clears the
box then stops needlessly leaving you stranded.

Now if the rules were enforced via officers at the scene, they might
use common sense. But as long as it is enforced by automatic cameras,
it is obvious which driver would be penalised.

I think it should be illegal to change lanes in a box junction, for similar
reasons.