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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Well today the posters went up all over the place about the changes
coming to how incomplete journeys are charged on pre-pay Oyster cards, and most staff should by now have had some training on what's happening. The whole thing starts from 19th November 2006 (apart from the few stations who've had it already for a couple weeks, as a test) and will affect anyone using pre-pay Oyster who doesn't touch in or out correctly. Basically for any journey that is not validated at start AND finish (by touching on the yellow readers) you will be charged £4 (which is the maximum cash price for a 1-6 single). Any journeys in one day that this happens will NOT count towards your cap, but will NOT, as at present, stop you getting a cap. For example, you do 6 journeys in one day, around London, one of which is incomplete for whatever reason. You will get the normal cap for 5 of the journeys, PLUS £4 for the incomplete journey. If you have 2 incomplete journeys, it'll cost you £8 extra etc. Contrary to previous comments, you will NOT be required to have a minimum balance of £5 on your Oyster - you can still enter with the minimum amount (£1 for most zones) on your card, which will go into a negative balance as you enter, and be adjusted correctly as you exit the network. LU Ticket Offices will NOT be able to resolve these for you (as they can at present) UNLESS it is due to a known event or problem (such as gateline readers are not functional at the time of travel). You will have to phone Oyster helpdesk to get it sorted. As at present you cannot travel with a negative pre-pay balance, even if you have a season ticket for the zone(s) you're in, so everyone must be extra careful not to get these incomplete journeys - which is, after all, one of the main reasons this is happening. Customers carrying a season ticket (say a monthly zones 1-2 ticket) will be charged for incomplete journeys, but at £1 or £1.50 for journeys outside of zones, which is the same as at present. Don't shoot the messenger.... |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Tim Roll-Pickering wrote: wrote: Customers carrying a season ticket (say a monthly zones 1-2 ticket) will be charged for incomplete journeys, but at £1 or £1.50 for journeys outside of zones, which is the same as at present. Does that include journeys within the ticket's validity? I hope not - it will cause chaos at a lot of NR/TfL interfaces. Thats an excellent question, and I will try my best (unless someone else does in the meantime) to find the answer for you tomorrow. Based on what I know now though, I would say yes it does, because how does the card know what you've done if you've not validated? Still, I don't know the workings of many central stations, so I won't comment further on it, I'll see what I can find out tomorrow. Also for any queries, you can call Oyster helpdesk on the number on the reverse of your card, as they *should* have the full info, which is quite possibly more than us lowly station staff are likely to get for free. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Customers carrying a season ticket (say a monthly zones 1-2 ticket)
will be charged for incomplete journeys, but at £1 or £1.50 for journeys outside of zones, which is the same as at present. Does that include journeys within the ticket's validity? I hope not - it will cause chaos at a lot of NR/TfL interfaces. Finsbury Park's going to be a laugh in the mornings then! I rarely touch my Z1-4 season due to the validator queue on the way down to the vic. If they ever work out how to put proper barriers there (and put more than two in) then that's fine. I guess the answer is more validators but unlikely before the date this silliness starts. D |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:08:07 +0100, "Tim Roll-Pickering"
wrote: wrote: Customers carrying a season ticket (say a monthly zones 1-2 ticket) will be charged for incomplete journeys, but at £1 or £1.50 for journeys outside of zones, which is the same as at present. Does that include journeys within the ticket's validity? I hope not - it will cause chaos at a lot of NR/TfL interfaces. Absolutely not. I have just looked at the Q&A document. If a travelcard holder validates within their zones of validity - no issue. If they are making an extension journey and start within their zones of validity then there is no monetary deduction from PAYG purse on entry - why would there be? The ticket is valid. If a travelcard holder does not validate within the zones of their validity then there is no issue unless the journey ends with validation *outside* of the zonal validity. The gate or validator is unable to resolve the journey as there is no entry - it just knows the ticket is not valid at the destination. *If* a Travelcard holder starts a journey and validates their card at a station outside of their zonal validity then there will be a deduction from their PAYG purse of £1 (starting at an origin in Z2-6D) or £1.50 (starting at an origin in Zone 1). At final exit the gate or validator will determine if any more money needs to be deducted from PAYG for the extension journey. The £4 charge (or £5 for some specific journeys on NR interavailable lines) on entry applies to people using PAYG *only*. I must do my "how does this all work post" HTH -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to
know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100% universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for example, is £6, not £4... Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country). |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to
know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100% universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for example, is £6, not £4... Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country). |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to
know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100% universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for example, is £6, not £4... Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country). |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
sorry... having a few technical problems here.... :|
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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
On 27 Oct 2006 12:17:17 -0700, "
wrote: Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100% universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for example, is £6, not £4... Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country). The Q&A specifically deals with this point as well. The £4 charge will apply at all LU stations in Zones 6A-D. Other than the £5 charge at specific NR locations the maximum PAYG "entry charge" deduction is £4. If you have access to the LU Intranet via a PC at your station then you can get hold of all of the information that I have got. There are links to all of the revised Oyster info on the homepage. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to
know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100% universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for example, is £6, not £4... Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country). |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
On 27 Oct 2006 12:26:03 -0700, "
wrote: sorry... having a few technical problems here.... :| You work for LUL, right? You must be used to it! :) |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Ah well thanks paul for confirming that... One thing I would LOVE to
know (to help my customers the best) is is the £4 charge 100% universal (ie including zones A-D)? I ask because our posters say you will be charged the "maximum cash fare" which, from Amersham for example, is £6, not £4... Any info you have will help to fill this small hole left by the info we have received (which as usual forgets that we exist out in the country). |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
On 27 Oct 2006 16:49:12 -0700, "MIG"
wrote: The whole thing is totally f*cking outrageous. There is suppposed to be a cap, but they now have a system that says "if we don't like you, the cap doesn't apply" (and we don't like you if you don't jump through our hoops, regardless of whether you have already been charged the maximum for a day). People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too ****ing right it gets clamped down on. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:35:01 +0100,
Paul Corfield wrote: The £4 charge (or £5 for some specific journeys on NR interavailable lines) on entry applies to people using PAYG *only*. Does this mean that there will have to be 4GBP on the card even to make a Z1 journey or will it still be 1.50GBP and the 3GBP deposit will allow for it (same as today where you can make a Z1-Z6 journey with only 1.5GBP on the card) Tim. -- God said, "div D = rho, div B = 0, curl E = - @B/@t, curl H = J + @D/@t," and there was light. http://tjw.hn.org/ http://www.locofungus.btinternet.co.uk/ |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
James Farrar wrote: On 27 Oct 2006 16:49:12 -0700, "MIG" wrote: The whole thing is totally f*cking outrageous. There is suppposed to be a cap, but they now have a system that says "if we don't like you, the cap doesn't apply" (and we don't like you if you don't jump through our hoops, regardless of whether you have already been charged the maximum for a day). People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too ****ing right it gets clamped down on. And the option that remains, if you don't want to get ripped off, is to keep on cheating. Explain why charging someone who has already paid the maximum for the day should be charged an extra £4 when it is known that they can't possibly be avoiding any fare that they would actually pay? |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
James Farrar wrote: People have been cheating the system ever since it was introduced. Too ****ing right it gets clamped down on. Too right, its about time something was done to stop it. MIG wrote: And the option that remains, if you don't want to get ripped off, is to keep on cheating. Explain why charging someone who has already paid the maximum for the day should be charged an extra £4 when it is known that they can't possibly be avoiding any fare that they would actually pay? I don't have the info in front of me right now (maybe Paul C has some handy...) but the problem remains that someone may travel zones 1-2 to receive a cap, then have an unresolved journey which MAY take them out to zone D, where they avoid touching out because, as you said, they have already capped, and they may think they'll get away with a free trip up the met. I personally can't see a better way to sort the problem of incorrect Oyster useage than to stamp down on it, however I'm sure if there is a way that is fairer for everyone, you should suggest it to the company. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Bear in mind that if you forget to touch in somewhere non-gated (eg on DLR), you now have no option but to avoid touching out, thereby avoiding the fare altogether (unless already capped). You don't have the option of paying the correct fare, and the fare of £1 that you would have been prepared to pay is lost. Unjust systems encourage evasion. Peter wrote: This cheating has cost London £10-15 million a year. That's you and me. You happy with that? Well I recently "cheated" because what I wanted to do was impossible given the system. Firstly I arrived at Hornsey and the ticket machine wasn't working. Took the train, exited at Finsbury Park, touched in there, got the next train to Moorgate and touched out. Return was to go first to the West End so did that on pre-pay, then on returning to Hornsey had to change anyway so Victoria Line from Oxford Circus to Finsbury Park, touched out and then took a "free ride" to Hornsey. Now if they put a nice simple touch-in/out machine at Hornsey I could have simply used it and would indeed have done so. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Peter wrote: This cheating has cost London £10-15 million a year. That's you and me. You happy with that? Of course not. That's why I am opposed to an unfair system which leaves people the choice of either cheating or being ripped off. I have always been in favour of it being made easy for people to pay reasonable fares, instead of which it is often made very difficult for people to pay unreasonable fares. And I am absolutely f*cking sick of being branded a cheat and a thief just for trying to use public transport. Why, when standing in a huge queue for a machine that turns out not to work while the ticket office is closed, do I have to read notices gleefully telling me how much I will have to pay if I get "caught" without a ticket? |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
MIG wrote: Why, when standing in a huge queue for a machine that turns out not to work while the ticket office is closed, do I have to read notices gleefully telling me how much I will have to pay if I get "caught" without a ticket? This is something you really want to write to the company about, and in fact i'd urge you to. Ticket office open times have been cut a lot lately, and this is said to be in reaction to the fact most people now use Oyster, which can be topped up online, by phone, or of course the machines or ticket office when available. Unfortunately it doesn't work for everyone, as you've illustrated above, so help us fight for better ticket office times by writing in! |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
*If* a Travelcard holder starts a journey and validates their card at a
station outside of their zonal validity then there will be a deduction from their PAYG purse of £1 (starting at an origin in Z2-6D) or £1.50 (starting at an origin in Zone 1). At final exit the gate or validator will determine if any more money needs to be deducted from PAYG for the extension journey. I know I asked this before but there was confusion about the answer. I still don't understand what happens if you have a Travelcard (on Oyster), touch in within your zones of validity but are unable to touch out at the destination. Specifically, I am referring to the large number of people (myself inc.) who have to touch in at Ealing Broadway (Z3), take the overground to Paddington but cannot touch out there. How would the system know that I didn't take the tube outside my zones of validity and failed to touch out at the arrival station (and should therefore have a fare deducted from my PAYG)? Jase |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
James Farrar wrote: On 27 Oct 2006 12:26:03 -0700, " wrote: sorry... having a few technical problems here.... :| You work for LUL, right? You must be used to it! :) Ooh sly ;) but yeah, I catch ya drift! haha |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
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Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
wrote: wrote: I know I asked this before but there was confusion about the answer. I still don't understand what happens if you have a Travelcard (on Oyster), touch in within your zones of validity but are unable to touch out at the destination. Specifically, I am referring to the large number of people (myself inc.) who have to touch in at Ealing Broadway (Z3), take the overground to Paddington but cannot touch out there. How would the system know that I didn't take the tube outside my zones of validity and failed to touch out at the arrival station (and should therefore have a fare deducted from my PAYG)? Its been answered somewhere around about here. If you touch in within your valid zones, but fail to touch out, the system will assume you stay within zones, you will not be charged. If you fail to touch in, and touch out outside of your zones, you'll pay £1 or £1.50 (the higher amount if its zone 1 you touch out). Surely that's £4? |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Olof Lagerkvist wrote: wrote: *If* a Travelcard holder starts a journey and validates their card at a station outside of their zonal validity then there will be a deduction from their PAYG purse of £1 (starting at an origin in Z2-6D) or £1.50 (starting at an origin in Zone 1). At final exit the gate or validator will determine if any more money needs to be deducted from PAYG for the extension journey. I know I asked this before but there was confusion about the answer. I still don't understand what happens if you have a Travelcard (on Oyster), touch in within your zones of validity but are unable to touch out at the destination. It does not matter at all wether you touch out or not in case you have touched in within the zones for which the travelcard on the Oyster card is valid. Specifically, I am referring to the large number of people (myself inc.) who have to touch in at Ealing Broadway (Z3), take the overground to Paddington but cannot touch out there. How would the system know that I didn't take the tube outside my zones of validity and failed to touch out at the arrival station (and should therefore have a fare deducted from my PAYG)? It does not know that. It is exactly the same situation as for a paper Travelcard, you can use it to get through fare gates within the zones for which it is valid but in case you travel outside the zones covered by the card it is your responsibility to have an extension ticket (in the paper travelcard case) or touch out your Oyster card at your desitination, even if there are no gates or gates are open there. The extension ticket in the paper travelcard case is £4, generally more than PAYG for the whole journey. So, in fact, you have to get out of the train, go to the exit, touch in, go back and wait for another train. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
MIG wrote:
The extension ticket in the paper travelcard case is £4, generally more than PAYG for the whole journey. So, in fact, you have to get out of the train, go to the exit, touch in, go back and wait for another train. The main problem with the combination of paper tickets and Oyster in London is in my opinion the decision to have the card readers on gates/platforms but not on the trains, so there is no way to touch in/touch out without leaving the trains which leads to this problem. There are also specific rules at some places which often leads to confusion, it is not in all cases clear simple-to-understand logic behind the "touching" people are supposed to do at interchanges such as Winbledon NR/tube/tram or between tube/DLR at Bank. There is a similar smart card system being introduced in western Sweden where I live and one of the big differences I have noticed is that here the card readers are always on the vehicle (on the bus, tram, train, boat etc). We only have season tickets on smart cards right now here but it is said that within a few months pre-pay value will be introduced too and that it will always require touch-in when boarding any public transport vehicle and touch-out when leaving it, no matter if it happens to be a bus, train or something else. There will be no special rules of validating on special card readers on platforms when changing trains or interchanging between train/tram or something like that. It is always the same rules, touch-in and touch-out on the vehicle you are using. That said, I still think that the London model is better in many ways, especially I find it quite reasonable to not require touch-out on buses (it will be very interesting to see if that rule will really work here). -- Olof Lagerkvist ICQ: 724451 Web: http://here.is/olof |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 00:38:20 GMT, Olof Lagerkvist
wrote: There is a similar smart card system being introduced in western Sweden where I live and one of the big differences I have noticed is that here the card readers are always on the vehicle (on the bus, tram, train, boat etc). We only have season tickets on smart cards right now here but it is said that within a few months pre-pay value will be introduced too and that it will always require touch-in when boarding any public transport vehicle and touch-out when leaving it, no matter if it happens to be a bus, train or something else. There will be no special rules of validating on special card readers on platforms when changing trains or interchanging between train/tram or something like that. It is always the same rules, touch-in and touch-out on the vehicle you are using. That said, I still think that the London model is better in many ways, especially I find it quite reasonable to not require touch-out on buses (it will be very interesting to see if that rule will really work here). I obviously don't know the precise details of the Swedish scheme but I'd guess you do not have the immense complexity and long standing rules that London's cash fare system has. Establishing a pre-pay system alongside such complexity is immensely difficult and will always result in anomalies which then result in complaints and confusion. The only place in the world that has regular smart card validation on exit from buses is Singapore [1]. I have just been catching up with how their system works and it seems rather clever. You validate on entry where a maximum fare is deducted. The on vehicle validators are only enabled for a short time prior to arrival (within 100 metres) at a stop and 20 seconds after departure. The validator by the driver can work in entry and exit mode - to deal with those people who may need to exit via the front door but exit mode is only set for a very short time before it reverts to entry only. There are dire warnings about double deduction of fares if you exit via the front if the validator has gone into entry only mode. Most "end of trip" validation is expected via the exit validators which calculate your fare and then add back any value due for the journey undertaken. Now I accept Singapore is a far more controlled society than the UK will ever be but it seems that they have achieved on buses what TfL is trying to provide on its rail network and is using exactly the same model. I agree with you that it will be very interesting indeed if the Swedish scheme can get high levels of exit validation on buses (or any other vehicle for that matter). I'd certainly love to know what the fare based incentives are to ensure that people validate (assuming, of course, that they opt to have them). [1] there is a very limited scheme within the HK Octopus scheme for buses that travel from central HK to Stanley (Citybus route 6 group) where there are intermediate fares rather than a taper as you approach the destination. IIRC max fare is deducted on entry and an add back is made for those people who alight at intermediate points. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Paul Corfield wrote:
I obviously don't know the precise details of the Swedish scheme but I'd guess you do not have the immense complexity and long standing rules that London's cash fare system has. Establishing a pre-pay system alongside such complexity is immensely difficult and will always result in anomalies which then result in complaints and confusion. You have a point here, even if we have some complex combination of fare schemes here too. Especially the train operating companies often distance-based fares in combination with each county's own zonal fares leads to a situation where it may be cheaper to buy a ticket for a little longer journey than you actually are going to take, just to cross a county boundary and get another fare scheme for your ticket... The only place in the world that has regular smart card validation on exit from buses is Singapore [1]. I have just been catching up with how their system works and it seems rather clever. You validate on entry where a maximum fare is deducted. The on vehicle validators are only enabled for a short time prior to arrival (within 100 metres) at a stop and 20 seconds after departure. The validator by the driver can work in entry and exit mode - to deal with those people who may need to exit via the front door but exit mode is only set for a very short time before it reverts to entry only. There are dire warnings about double deduction of fares if you exit via the front if the validator has gone into entry only mode. Most "end of trip" validation is expected via the exit validators which calculate your fare and then add back any value due for the journey undertaken. Now I accept Singapore is a far more controlled society than the UK will ever be but it seems that they have achieved on buses what TfL is trying to provide on its rail network and is using exactly the same model. Very interesting to read, thanks very much for this information about Hongkong. I agree with you that it will be very interesting indeed if the Swedish scheme can get high levels of exit validation on buses (or any other vehicle for that matter). I'd certainly love to know what the fare based incentives are to ensure that people validate (assuming, of course, that they opt to have them). Unless we touch out we will have to pay the maximum fare possible with that vehicle so there will be a very strong incentive, especially on long journeys, but many people here critisize the new system because there is a great risk that people forget to touch out and pay much more than they should have done. It will work in such way that when we touch in when entering a vehicle the validator will deduct the maximum fare possible with that vehicle (from this stop to the terminus). We won't need to have all that money on the card, the balance can be negative, but it will not be possible to start a new journey with a card with a negative balance. To allow negative balances without the risk for the county to lose money we will have to pay a refundable deposit when buying the card. So long very much like Oyster, also that no money will be deducted on entry if we touch in within an area for which we have a valid season ticket on the card. But there are also differences, all validators will be entry/exit bidirectional. The first touch will be entry and the second touch will be exit. On trains where pre-pay cards are not valid but season tickets are, the ticket inspectors will not have card readers so we will have to keep a receipt from the time we bought the card showing that it contains a valid ticket if we travel on such trains and this actually complicates things rather than simplifies compared to paper tickets. Also, for pre-pay cards, the deposit will be 100 SEK (~ £7.40) which is... a quite high deposit. Another odd thing, the pre-pay fare will be distance-based outside three concentric zones around City of Gothenburg and outside local town centres, while cash single tickets and day-cards will still be zonal all over this county as they have been for many years. I think I will still recommend visitors to buy some kind of day-card and explain where they are valid instead of trying to explain how pre-pay cards work... -- Olof Lagerkvist ICQ: 724451 Web: http://here.is/olof |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Olof Lagerkvist wrote:
But there are also differences, all validators will be entry/exit bidirectional. The first touch will be entry and the second touch will be exit. I see... like the DLR, then. And not like Croydon trams (note to self). On trains where pre-pay cards are not valid but season tickets are, the ticket inspectors will not have card readers so we will have to keep a receipt from the time we bought the card showing that it contains a valid ticket if we travel on such trains and this actually complicates things rather than simplifies compared to paper tickets. I agree, at least we didn't do that here! As you know, we have the same situation here with most trains, but I don't think people were ever required to keep the receipt with them, although I think it would have helped resolve a few misunderstandings in the first few months. In Lisbon I think people were required to keep the receipt until all modes had adopted the new technology (I'm thinking back to 2004) so I suppose it's a common requirement of a new system. Will they ever get card readers in Sweden? I wonder whether any discussions took place within TfL about whether trams should have the validators on board, as they "feel" to me more like a bus? My expectations, from various trips around the continent, are - looks like a bus stop: validate on board, looks like a station: validate on the way in and probably on the way out if there's anything in the way. Doesn't always work, though! I don't have a problem with whatever charging mechanism TfL come up with, as long as it is easy to comply with it, or to put it another way, we'd have to go out of our way to get charged the £4. Er, sorry. Anyway, for anyone that uses the underground and/or bus exclusively, I can see that it would become second nature. Being a bit of an awkward individual (or train user, as we are known in London), I always seem to come across the special cases that you've already mentioned - Bank, Wimbledon, and Ealing Broadway, that have even a confirmed former trainspotter like me confused about which readers are in, which out, which both and what to do where. Apart from paying three times for a tram once (partly due to poorly designed error messages), I haven't been burned much but we'll see what happens in the new regime. As I've said before, I think a lot of this will be resolved with proper Oyster acceptance on the railways. Then I can start complaining about my other wishes, such as free (or cheap) transfers on the buses... Richard. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
MIG wrote: If you fail to touch in, and touch out outside of your zones, you'll pay £1 or £1.50 (the higher amount if its zone 1 you touch out). Surely that's £4? No, if you have a valid season ticket, you pay £1 for incomplete journeys outside zone 1, or £1.50 within zone 1, that are not covered by your season ticket. This is ecxactly the same as for everyone right now. £4 is the penalty for people using ONLY pre-pay, with NO season ticket. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Richard wrote:
Olof Lagerkvist wrote: On trains where pre-pay cards are not valid but season tickets are, the ticket inspectors will not have card readers so we will have to keep a receipt from the time we bought the card showing that it contains a valid ticket if we travel on such trains and this actually complicates things rather than simplifies compared to paper tickets. I agree, at least we didn't do that here! As you know, we have the same situation here with most trains, but I don't think people were ever required to keep the receipt with them, although I think it would have helped resolve a few misunderstandings in the first few months. In Lisbon I think people were required to keep the receipt until all modes had adopted the new technology (I'm thinking back to 2004) so I suppose it's a common requirement of a new system. Will they ever get card readers in Sweden? It is not clear wether or not, it seems to be a constant arguing between county councils and train operators about who should pay for them in that case, so my guess is that at least it will take a year or two until we can throw away the receipts. Another problem is that there is a great risk that different parts of Sweden will get incompatible smart cards with different standards so that inter-city route trains will have to have card readers for more than one system. At least it seems that Stockholm will get another card standard than we in western Sweden have got but otoh we have the same standard as being introduced in Copenhagen. I have also heard that in a few years it will be possible to use pre-pay cards from western Sweden and from Copenhagen in each other's areas when visiting the other region. That adds one more thing to solve, currency exchange rates and rules for public transport authorities to pay each other, but I think it will be a very good and useful thing if it is introduced. ....and for me personally it would actually be useful to be able to touch-in on a bus to the Gothenburg airport, touch-out, catch a flight arrive at Heathrow and touch-in at the tube gates, all "touches" with the same card. :-) I wonder whether any discussions took place within TfL about whether trams should have the validators on board, as they "feel" to me more like a bus? My expectations, from various trips around the continent, are - looks like a bus stop: validate on board, looks like a station: validate on the way in and probably on the way out if there's anything in the way. Doesn't always work, though! Yes... Especially since there are some stops shared between buses and Tramlink, you touch your card on the tram stop validator, wait for a tram, but a bus turns up before the tram and you decide to take the bus instead... Now, if you board the bus without validating again on the bus you will actually pay the correct fare, but how do you explain that to the driver or an inspector? I don't have a problem with whatever charging mechanism TfL come up with, as long as it is easy to comply with it, or to put it another way, we'd have to go out of our way to get charged the £4. Er, sorry. Anyway, for anyone that uses the underground and/or bus exclusively, I can see that it would become second nature. Being a bit of an awkward individual (or train user, as we are known in London), I always seem to come across the special cases that you've already mentioned - Bank, Wimbledon, and Ealing Broadway, that have even a confirmed former trainspotter like me confused about which readers are in, which out, which both and what to do where. Apart from paying three times for a tram once (partly due to poorly designed error messages), I haven't been burned much but we'll see what happens in the new regime. As I've said before, I think a lot of this will be resolved with proper Oyster acceptance on the railways. This is in my opinion the worst thing in the London case, that TfL has so many different rules for validating. To require touch-out at DLR but not at Tramlink when both have quite similar looking validators on the stops is in my opinion to make the validation rules unnecessary complicated. DLR has, except for Bank and Tower Gw, practically a almost tram-like flat-fare, £1.50 cash and £1.00 with Oyster but is technically treated like a tube fare but could have been treated like tram service in the fare scheme too. Then I can start complaining about my other wishes, such as free (or cheap) transfers on the buses... I find it strange that they did not introduce transfer fare on Oyster. While certainly more complicated logics are already solved in the Oyster software a simple thing as special transfer fare for buses is not included. Buses are only cheap in London if you can make the complete journey with only one bus. In most other cases buses are more expensive than most other places in Europe. -- Olof Lagerkvist ICQ: 724451 Web: http://here.is/olof |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Richard wrote:
I agree, at least we didn't do that here! As you know, we have the same situation here with most trains, but I don't think people were ever required to keep the receipt with them Not on Oyster, but MK Metro, a (now Arriva-owned) bus company in Milton Keynes who issue season tickets on quite an old contact smartcard system, do request that receipts are carried in case of a failed card, or in case the ticket is used on a tendered service operated by a company with no card readers. Neil |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Richard wrote:
Being a bit of an awkward individual (or train user, as we are known in London), I always seem to come across the special cases that you've already mentioned - Bank, Wimbledon, and Ealing Broadway, that have even a confirmed former trainspotter like me confused about which readers are in, which out, which both and what to do where. Yesterday in Croydon I noticed the readers had a bizarre message which seemed to boil down to: "All PAYG users must touch in here. All Oyster users going to Wimbledon must touch in here." What's the reasoning behind this distinction? Surely the exit barriers at Wimbledon will just read the travelcard and assume entry at an ungated point? |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
On Wed, 1 Nov 2006 12:46:47 -0000, Tim Roll-Pickering wrote:
Yesterday in Croydon I noticed the readers had a bizarre message which seemed to boil down to: "All PAYG users must touch in here. All Oyster users going to Wimbledon must touch in here." What's the reasoning behind this distinction? Surely the exit barriers at Wimbledon will just read the travelcard and assume entry at an ungated point? Not if you only have a bus pass, or a Travelcard that doesn't include Z3. |
Oyster incomplete journeys - further info
Olof Lagerkvist wrote [...] While certainly more complicated logics are already solved in the Oyster software a simple thing as special transfer fare for buses is not included. Buses are only cheap in London if you can make the complete journey with only one bus. In most other cases buses are more expensive than most other places in Europe. But Oyster capping means that the bus cost, "more expensive" or not will never be more than a total of £3 per day. The fourth or fifth and all subsequent buses will be free. -- Mike D |
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