Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?



SteveTBM
--
========================================
In dentibus anticis frustum magnum spiniciae habes

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

"SteveTBM®" wrote in message
.uk...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?



SteveTBM
--

In case they were needed for future railway development? In fact the
easternmost piers are going to be used for the Blackfriars station widening
work duringThameslink 20??

Another possibility is that if they were in good nick, they may have been
left to provide part of the upstream 'cu****er' for the current bridge's
piers. A civil engineer might be able to confirm that, I shoud think one
will be along anytime...

Paul

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

SteveTBM® wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?

Because if they'd got rid of them, someone would have asked why they got rid
of them.

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

In message , SteveTBM®
writes

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?

I wonder if it was because the bridge was so close to the adjacent St
Paul's bridge that removing the piers might have destabilised the
foundations of the latter.

--
Paul Terry

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

SteveTBM® wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?




The bridge was of cast-iron construction and would have had scrap
value. The masonry supports had no value and, presumably, there was no
funding at the time to remove them for aesthetic reasons. However, I
like ruins like this and hope they will stay as they are.

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

"umpston" wrote in message
oups.com...
SteveTBM® wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?




The bridge was of cast-iron construction and would have had scrap
value. The masonry supports had no value and, presumably, there was no
funding at the time to remove them for aesthetic reasons. However, I
like ruins like this and hope they will stay as they are.

See my other post, the easternmost piers are to be used by the new
Blackfriars station, so must be in reasonable condition - IIRC the tops are
properly capped off to waterproof them as well.

Paul

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

Paul Scott wrote:
"umpston" wrote in message
oups.com...
SteveTBM® wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?




The bridge was of cast-iron construction and would have had scrap
value. The masonry supports had no value and, presumably, there was no
funding at the time to remove them for aesthetic reasons. However, I
like ruins like this and hope they will stay as they are.

See my other post, the easternmost piers are to be used by the new
Blackfriars station, so must be in reasonable condition - IIRC the tops are
properly capped off to waterproof them as well.

Paul

I'm probably getting mixed up with something else, I think there were
plans to have sculptures on the top of each support - sounds awful! I
heard that in a pub somewhere...

B.

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

ONscotland wrote in message
:

Paul Scott wrote:
"umpston" wrote in message
oups.com...
SteveTBM® wrote:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackfriars_Railway_Bridge


So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?




The bridge was of cast-iron construction and would have had scrap
value. The masonry supports had no value and, presumably, there was
no funding at the time to remove them for aesthetic reasons.
However, I
like ruins like this and hope they will stay as they are.

See my other post, the easternmost piers are to be used by the new
Blackfriars station, so must be in reasonable condition - IIRC the
tops are properly capped off to waterproof them as well.

Paul

I'm probably getting mixed up with something else, I think there were
plans to have sculptures on the top of each support - sounds awful! I
heard that in a pub somewhere...

LOL. But keep quiet about that one: you'll give people ideas :-(

Before the old part of the bridge was demoloished, was the station wider (ie
did it extend west towards the road bridge) or did the extra tracks merge
into the existing ones just south of the roofed section? Likewise on the
south bank, did the tracks merge into the existing ones before the start of
the long north-south building, or was that built after the bridge was
demolished?

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

"Martin Underwood" a@b wrote in message
...

So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?

The bridge was of cast-iron construction and would have had scrap
value. The masonry supports had no value and, presumably, there was
no funding at the time to remove them for aesthetic reasons.
However, I
like ruins like this and hope they will stay as they are.

See my other post, the easternmost piers are to be used by the new
Blackfriars station, so must be in reasonable condition - IIRC the
tops are properly capped off to waterproof them as well.

Paul

Before the old part of the bridge was demoloished, was the station wider
(ie did it extend west towards the road bridge) or did the extra tracks
merge into the existing ones just south of the roofed section? Likewise on
the south bank, did the tracks merge into the existing ones before the
start of the long north-south building, or was that built after the bridge
was demolished?
The new bridge was built 20 years after the older bridge (1862) , to provide
space for additional tracks, the older bridge went out of use when heavier
trains became the norm in the 1950s, but the deck wasn't removed until 1984.

Paul

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

Paul Scott wrote in message
:

"Martin Underwood" a@b wrote in message
...

So why have the supports of the old bridge been left behind?

The bridge was of cast-iron construction and would have had scrap
value. The masonry supports had no value and, presumably, there
was no funding at the time to remove them for aesthetic reasons.
However, I
like ruins like this and hope they will stay as they are.

See my other post, the easternmost piers are to be used by the new
Blackfriars station, so must be in reasonable condition - IIRC the
tops are properly capped off to waterproof them as well.

Paul

Before the old part of the bridge was demoloished, was the station
wider (ie did it extend west towards the road bridge) or did the
extra tracks merge into the existing ones just south of the roofed
section? Likewise on the south bank, did the tracks merge into the
existing ones before the start of the long north-south building, or
was that built after the bridge was demolished?

The new bridge was built 20 years after the older bridge (1862), to
provide space for additional tracks, the older bridge went out of use
when heavier trains became the norm in the 1950s, but the deck wasn't
removed until 1984.

So did the old bridge have a straight-line access to the trackbed coming
from the south and the station to the north, or was there a sharp kink in
the track at each end as *appears* to be necessary if it was connected
nowadays? I presume there was not a kink: the original bridge would have
been built inline with the track and the platforms and maybe the new bridge
would have had the deviated kinked route, though track has probably been
slewed since the new bridge became the only one.

Was the bridge deck demolished (rather than simply being left unused)
because it had become unsafe or for its scrap value?

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

"Martin Underwood" a@b wrote in message
...

So did the old bridge have a straight-line access to the trackbed coming
from the south and the station to the north, or was there a sharp kink in
the track at each end as *appears* to be necessary if it was connected
nowadays? I presume there was not a kink: the original bridge would have
been built inline with the track and the platforms and maybe the new
bridge would have had the deviated kinked route, though track has probably
been slewed since the new bridge became the only one.

The inset map of the area in London Railway Atlas (Joe Brown 2005) shows the
original 4 lines from Blackfriars junction (south of the river) in a N/S
straight line through the site of Blackfriars Bridge Station (1884-1885)
over the older bridge into the old Ludgate Hill station. I think the modern
office block just to the west of the current tracks on the south side is
exactly over the original station. The lines are shown as being out of use
by 1971.

When both bridges were in use there would have been 8 tracks accross the
river.

Was the bridge deck demolished (rather than simply being left unused)
because it had become unsafe or for its scrap value?

Can't be sure on that one..

Paul

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

Martin Underwood wrote:

So did the old bridge have a straight-line access to the trackbed coming
from the south and the station to the north, or was there a sharp kink in
the track at each end as *appears* to be necessary if it was connected
nowadays? I presume there was not a kink: the original bridge would have
been built inline with the track and the platforms and maybe the new bridge
would have had the deviated kinked route, though track has probably been
slewed since the new bridge became the only one.

Was the bridge deck demolished (rather than simply being left unused)
because it had become unsafe or for its scrap value?

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/s...ge/index.shtml
contains details about the south end of the bridge and a map

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

Martin Underwood wrote:

So did the old bridge have a straight-line access to the trackbed coming
from the south and the station to the north, or was there a sharp kink in
the track at each end as *appears* to be necessary if it was connected
nowadays? I presume there was not a kink: the original bridge would have
been built inline with the track and the platforms and maybe the new bridge
would have had the deviated kinked route, though track has probably been
slewed since the new bridge became the only one.

The tracks on the orginal, upstream, bridge did not serve Blackfriers,
originally called St. Pauls, station. They bypassed this station,
which was built later, and served Ludgate Hill station, and then
descended to Snow Hill, briefly re-named Holborn Viaduct Low Level,
station, which is just North of the present St. Pauls Thameslink; it
closed in 1916, but traces can still be seen. There was originally a
station on the South bank of the Thames, named Blackfriers Bridge. The
through lines at Blackfriers station, reached by the current bridge,
served only Holborn Viaduct station, until the re-opening of the Snow
Hill line as 'Thameslink'. When this connection was built it did have
a kink in it until it was re-aligned after the demolition of Holborn
Viaduct station.

See this site, for details of the closed stations.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk . There were three stations between
Elephant & Castle and Blackfriers; Camberwell, Walworth Road and
Borough Road, and an Eastern curve North of Snow hill, towards
Aldersgate Street and Moorgate street. There were also platforms on
the West curve at Loughborough Junction, and on the main line at
Clapham and Wandsworth Rooad. The last passenger service on the old
route was Victoria - Moorgate street, but freight continued until about
1970 ish.

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 wrote:

See this site, for details of the closed stations.
http://www.disused-stations.org.uk . There were three stations between
Elephant & Castle and Blackfriers; Camberwell, Walworth Road and Borough
Road, and an Eastern curve North of Snow hill, towards Aldersgate Street
and Moorgate street.

Cheers, i didn't know about the Borough Road station. I'm surprised they
put a station there, so close to Elephant & Castle, rather than somewhere
like Union Street.

However, neither Camberwell nor Walworth Road is between Elephant and
Castle and Blackfriars, though; only Borough Road and Blackfriars Bridge
are.

There were also platforms on the West curve at Loughborough Junction,
and on the main line at Clapham and Wandsworth Rooad.

I don't understand what you mean by "on the main line at Clapham and
Wandsworth Road"; i'm probably being very dense here, but the Holborn line
doesn't go anywhere near either of those roads ...

tom

--
The final chapter, prophetic, poetic

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 wrote:

However, neither Camberwell nor Walworth Road is between Elephant and
Castle and Blackfriars, though; only Borough Road and Blackfriars Bridge
are.

Sorry, I meant between Herne Hill and Blackfriers. At one time trains
would split at Herne Hill, with one half going to Victoria, and the
other then then new city extension. Until about the '70s, the
illuminated train indicators on platforms 1&2 at Herne Hill could show
'VICTORIA' or 'CITY' The 'CITY' part was later changed to show, I
think' Blackfriers & Holborn Viaduct', or something similar. These
indicators were replaced in NSE days.

There were also platforms on the West curve at Loughborough Junction,
and on the main line at Clapham and Wandsworth Rooad.

I don't understand what you mean by "on the main line at Clapham and
Wandsworth Road"; i'm probably being very dense here, but the Holborn line
doesn't go anywhere near either of those roads ...


Today services towards Blackfriers run via Herne Hihh, Denmark Hill or
London Bridge, but there's a fourth route to reach it, which now has no
normal passenger service. The Victoria - Moorgate Street service
departed from the Chatham station at Victoria, I think it served
Clapham and Wandsworth Road, there were certainly main line platforms
at those stations at one time, and then took the curve at the Western
side of Loughborourgh Junction. There were platforms on this curve,
though no trace of them can be seen today. I think there were also
platforms on this line at Brixton, though these would have been very
close to those at Loughborough Junction, so I don't know if these
trains served both. After calling at Snow Hill these trains took the
now extinct Eastern curve to Aldersgate Street and Moorgate Street,
rather than the Western one to Farringdon. This service was withdrawn
during the war in 1916, and was never re-instated. Until the opening
of Thameslink these were the last regular passenger workings through
Snow Hill tunnel.

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

On Sun, 12 Nov 2006 wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

On Fri, 10 Nov 2006 wrote:

There were also platforms on the West curve at Loughborough Junction,
and on the main line at Clapham and Wandsworth Rooad.

I don't understand what you mean by "on the main line at Clapham and
Wandsworth Road"; i'm probably being very dense here, but the Holborn
line doesn't go anywhere near either of those roads ...

Today services towards Blackfriers run via Herne Hihh, Denmark Hill or
London Bridge, but there's a fourth route to reach it, which now has no
normal passenger service. The Victoria - Moorgate Street service
departed from the Chatham station at Victoria, I think it served
Clapham and Wandsworth Road, there were certainly main line platforms
at those stations at one time, and then took the curve at the Western
side of Loughborourgh Junction.

Wow. Not entirely unlike the present 'south london line' service, only on
the Chatham lines (which are now essentially the fast pair there) rather
than the Atlantic lines.

There were platforms on this curve, though no trace of them can be seen
today. I think there were also platforms on this line at Brixton,
though these would have been very close to those at Loughborough
Junction, so I don't know if these trains served both.

AIUI, the East Brixton platforms were on the Atlantic lines, so presumably
wouldn't have been much use to this service, BICBW.

tom

--
forget everything from school - you are programmer

Blackfriars Railway Bridge
 

Tom Anderson wrote:

AIUI, the East Brixton platforms were on the Atlantic lines, so presumably
wouldn't have been much use to this service, BICBW.

That's correct, East Brixton was a quite different station. The
Victoria - London Bridge service runs on the Atlantic lines, serves
Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street, previously named just
'Clapham', and then crosses over the main lines on the high-level
bridge at Brixton, then heads towards Denmark Hill. East Brixton
station was at Barrington Road, a short distance to the East of where
the Atlantic lines cross over the main lines, above Brixton station.
There has been talk from time to time of building platforms on the
high-level bridge to serve these lines, as a replacement for East
Brixton, but it seems unlikely to happen.

The other route from Victoria to Denmark Hill is to run down the
Chatham main line, towards Brixton station, but just before the
platforms there to diverge left; it is on these lines, that I *think*
Brixton Station also had platforms at one time; i.e. it was a 'V'
shaped junction station. at this point these lines are heading East,
and the Atlantic lines come in to then run alongside them, towards
Denmark Hill. These tracks are the Northern pair, and the Atlantic
lines are the Southern ones. Both sets of tracks then cross over the
main Herne Hill - Elephant & Castle line, just South of Loughborough
Junction station. Just before they do so there is a spur from the
Northern tracks, i.e. not the Atlantic lines, to join the Loughborough
Junction line, just North of that station. There were platforms on
this spur, i.e. the Western one at Loughborough Junction, so if I am
correct in thinking that there were also platforms at Brixton on the
lines towards Denmark Hill, then the Victoria - Moorgate Street trains
would have passed through both, and they would have been very close
together. Whether they served both stations, I don't know. This was
fourty years before I was born.

The main line platforms at Clapham and Wandsworth Road are also long
gone; these stations are now served only by the Atlantic lines.