London Banter - Arrrrrrrrgh

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David of Broadway typed

Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? I
certainly never noticed it on my recent visits to London. So why would
they suddenly be new problems with Oyster?

I've certainly been tailgated; I believe it can be a major problem.

And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current
fare structure?

Many station gatelines are open and unstaffed for much of the day. Many
chanced travelling ticketless hoping they would meet no challenge or pay
a minimal fare on arrival.

When the Revenue Protection squads 'blitzed' there were quite a few fare
dodgers on the platforms. Some escaped by train.

--
Helen D. Vecht:
Edgware.

Paul G wrote:

You're also ignoring that most London National Rail stations don't have
ticket barriers (although this could be dealt with by your point below)
and it's not viable; nor are ticket barriers closed at unmanned
stations; nor can users touch out if they didn't touch in (e.g. zone
extensions from stations outside of the Oyster area); I'm sure there's
more

You wouldn't need barriers, just machines in which Oyster users could
touch in-out. That's what they have on DLR. And that line also has
reasonably frequent inspections on the trains.

Again this wouldn't cover all situations (see above), unless there was a
flat fare style system. I would have also thought there are more
carriages than stations, so it would have extra cost implications.

I agree, touch in/out on trains is not appropriate. A texting system
would work well as an option.

Those with season tickets though should not have to go out of their way
to send a text every time they use the service.

"David of Broadway" wrote in message
...

You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the
trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch
in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in
and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined.

So how many readers do you propose installing in each carriage to deal with
peak loadings and how do you propose to deal with the increased dwell time
whilst customers alighting ensure they swipe?

No there won't as there are special facilities built into the entire
system to deal with emergency situations. These have been enhanced to
add new functionality as part of the software developments to support
this change to pre-pay arrangements.

No it doesn't.

On Saturday there was a "one under" at Camden Town which, coupled with
planned engineering work, took out a major part of the Northern Line.
Despite the "software developments" Pauln refers to, it took 3 or 4
people around in the NOC working flat-out over 45 minutes to make the
necessary changes to gate settings at all the stations so-affected.

In fact since the NOC started "dry running" this procedure prior to
today's launch of capping etc it has been common for an incident to be
over before all such settings have managed to be applied, such is the
user-unfriendliness of the program. A classic comment yesterday from
someone at Prestige was that it wasn't the fault of their system, but
rather that it was now "being used too much"!!!

For example, a simple service suspension requires auto-continuation,
auto-completion and emergency bit (return all paper tickets) put on at
each termination point, each adjacent station on any line serving that
station and any other stations within walking distance but not directly
linked (i.e. Aldgate to Aldgate East, Bayswater to Queensway). In
addition settings have to be altered at all stations along the
suspended section too. Changes have to be applied and taken off
separately in most cases. Nor are these changes applied and removed at
the same times. Some settings must be applied imediately, some are
back-dated 3 hours before the incident commenced, some are removed 1
hour after the service resumes and/or the station reopens, others must
be left on for the seven following days!

On 19 Nov 2006 12:21:31 -0800, alex_t wrote:
* I think only DLR got everything correctly

The DLR now has lots of extra signs at Bank telling pay-as-you-go
users and now travelcard users using extensions to touch in at the
validator there but I still haven't seen a reason why it is needed
if you touched in when you began your tube journey to Bank.

The DLR staff on the trains and at the odd station blockade don't
seem to mind if you haven't made this extra validation.

David

In article 70,
Adrian wrote:

I think you miss his point.

The problem isn't a question of "Will people _have_ to touch out?" but more
one of "Will people _think_ they still need to touch out, and try, causing
chaos?"

I saw a similar "unintended consequences" type problem the other week in a
section of motorway that had been reduced to one lane with a 50mph limit
enforced by SPECS cameras. There was a police car with the blue lights and
siren going, and it was stuck at 50mph because nobody in front of it was
willing to get a speeding ticket.

Robin Mayes wrote:
"David of Broadway" wrote in message
...

You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the
trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch
in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in
and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined.

So how many readers do you propose installing in each carriage to deal with
peak loadings and how do you propose to deal with the increased dwell time
whilst customers alighting ensure they swipe?

Two by each door (one on each side).

I don't know what kind of increased dwells we're looking at. How long
does it take to touch in or out? This is only an issue at stations
without Oyster readers, which are presumably the less busy ones.
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway
writes
Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking
very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the
posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made
that distinction in the publicity.

Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that,
whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and
Travelcard alike?

Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion!
PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical
reasons (currently including many national rail stations without
Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible
fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect
isn't really financially viable).

Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest,
barring any evidence to the contrary. Most Underground travelers
encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest.
Would be lovely; sadly people aren't always honest. Indeed crime goes
down when you put more ticket inspectors in place (on National Rail).
That's why you need checks and balances in the system.

Obviously.

You're also ignoring that most London National Rail stations don't have
ticket barriers (although this could be dealt with by your point below)
and it's not viable; nor are ticket barriers closed at unmanned
stations; nor can users touch out if they didn't touch in (e.g. zone
extensions from stations outside of the Oyster area); I'm sure there's more

That's why I suggested Oyster readers on the trains.

Incidentally, why not leave barriers closed at unmanned stations, with a
large, prominent button that would open the barriers in an emergency?
(The person pushing the button would be caught on video, so he might not
want to push the button frivolously on a regular basis.)

That's very much unlike the current system, in which PAYG users are
implicitly assumed to be dishonest while Travelcard users are
implicitly assumed to be honest.
There's (currently) no alternatively for Travelcard users. It's a case
of better to accurately categorise some journeys than none at all.

Understood. But surely the vast majority of Travelcard users are
traveling between stations with Oyster readers, no?

In any case, it's been announced that all NR stations within the zones
will be receiving Oyster readers in the coming years. So the problem is
a temporary one, in any case.

You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the
trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can
touch in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails
to touch in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is
fined.
Again this wouldn't cover all situations (see above), unless there was a
flat fare style system.

What situations am I missing? If, for whatever reason, you didn't touch
in at the station, you can touch in on the train. I suppose that,
getting off, you need to know in advance whether to touch out on the
train or not -- there could be an announcement on the train, and the
readers could be programmed not to get confused if somebody touches out
on the train and again a few minutes later in the station.

I would have also thought there are more
carriages than stations, so it would have extra cost implications.

What about people coming from outside the zones?
--
David of Broadway
New York, NY, USA

David of Broadway wrote:
(The person pushing the button would be caught on video, so he might not
want to push the button frivolously on a regular basis.)

You mean in the same way that town centre CCTVs do such a good job
of catching peoples faces when they're wearing a hoodie? Besides which
unless the camera can ID someone by their eyes then all someone has
to do is put their arm in front of their face as they go through.

B2003