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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6161498.stm
"Passengers are being warned to use their Oyster Cards correctly or face paying more for their journeys. From Sunday, if passengers do not touch the electronic smartcard on the reader on entry or exit to a station, they could be charged up to £4. The cost of not doing so could rise to £5 if journeys are started or ended at certain national rail stations. Transport for London said if the card is not scanned it does not know the correct fare to apply." How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 13:36:36 +0000, Paul Corfield
wrote in : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6161498.stm "Passengers are being warned to use their Oyster Cards correctly or face paying more for their journeys. From Sunday, if passengers do not touch the electronic smartcard on the reader on entry or exit to a station, they could be charged up to £4. The cost of not doing so could rise to £5 if journeys are started or ended at certain national rail stations. Transport for London said if the card is not scanned it does not know the correct fare to apply." How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Yeah, the radio ads on Capital Gold just say "Oyster card", no distinction between travelcards and pre-pay. -- Ivan Reid, Electronic & Computer Engineering, ___ CMS Collaboration, Brunel University. ] Room 40-1-B12, CERN KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty". |
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Of course, there will be major problems when the next 7/7 type emergency
happens and a station has to be evacuated. Normally in such cases the gates are all opened to ease egress, but how many PAYG Oyster customers will stop to make sure they won't lose out on a fiver, thereby causing mass blockage at the gates? "Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6161498.stm "Passengers are being warned to use their Oyster Cards correctly or face paying more for their journeys. From Sunday, if passengers do not touch the electronic smartcard on the reader on entry or exit to a station, they could be charged up to £4. The cost of not doing so could rise to £5 if journeys are started or ended at certain national rail stations. Transport for London said if the card is not scanned it does not know the correct fare to apply." How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 14:59:42 -0000, "Steve"
wrote: Of course, there will be major problems when the next 7/7 type emergency happens and a station has to be evacuated. Normally in such cases the gates are all opened to ease egress, but how many PAYG Oyster customers will stop to make sure they won't lose out on a fiver, thereby causing mass blockage at the gates? I can touch in/out without breaking stride, even with a closed gate (well, except the atrocious new gates at KXSP). |
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 14:59:42 -0000, "Steve"
wrote: "Paul Corfield" wrote in message .. . http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6161498.stm "Passengers are being warned to use their Oyster Cards correctly or face paying more for their journeys. From Sunday, if passengers do not touch the electronic smartcard on the reader on entry or exit to a station, they could be charged up to £4. The cost of not doing so could rise to £5 if journeys are started or ended at certain national rail stations. Transport for London said if the card is not scanned it does not know the correct fare to apply." How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Of course, there will be major problems when the next 7/7 type emergency happens and a station has to be evacuated. Normally in such cases the gates are all opened to ease egress, but how many PAYG Oyster customers will stop to make sure they won't lose out on a fiver, thereby causing mass blockage at the gates? No there won't as there are special facilities built into the entire system to deal with emergency situations. These have been enhanced to add new functionality as part of the software developments to support this change to pre-pay arrangements. Next question. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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Paul Corfield ) gurgled happily, sounding much like
they were saying : Of course, there will be major problems when the next 7/7 type emergency happens and a station has to be evacuated. Normally in such cases the gates are all opened to ease egress, but how many PAYG Oyster customers will stop to make sure they won't lose out on a fiver, thereby causing mass blockage at the gates? No there won't as there are special facilities built into the entire system to deal with emergency situations. These have been enhanced to add new functionality as part of the software developments to support this change to pre-pay arrangements. Next question. I think you miss his point. The problem isn't a question of "Will people _have_ to touch out?" but more one of "Will people _think_ they still need to touch out, and try, causing chaos?" And, fwiw, I'm sure plenty WILL try to. Even if announcements say "Leave the station. Do NOT stop to touch out" |
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:48:22 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
Of course, there will be major problems when the next 7/7 type emergency happens and a station has to be evacuated. Normally in such cases the gates are all opened to ease egress, but how many PAYG Oyster customers will stop to make sure they won't lose out on a fiver, thereby causing mass blockage at the gates? No there won't as there are special facilities built into the entire system to deal with emergency situations. These have been enhanced to add new functionality as part of the software developments to support this change to pre-pay arrangements. That does solve the problem of people being charged £4 for being evacuated, but doesn't necessarily solve the problem posed... |
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"asdf" wrote in message ... On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 16:48:22 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote: Of course, there will be major problems when the next 7/7 type emergency happens and a station has to be evacuated. Normally in such cases the gates are all opened to ease egress, but how many PAYG Oyster customers will stop to make sure they won't lose out on a fiver, thereby causing mass blockage at the gates? No there won't as there are special facilities built into the entire system to deal with emergency situations. These have been enhanced to add new functionality as part of the software developments to support this change to pre-pay arrangements. That does solve the problem of people being charged £4 for being evacuated, but doesn't necessarily solve the problem posed... And the more people are trained to use their Oyster to avoid the extra fare, the more people will automatically stop to do it no matter of the emergency. There are a lot of 'forgetful' (I am trying to avoid usig the word stupid) people who will stop to touch in an emergecny situation as they have been programmed to do it. And you will still end up with people who walk up to the gate and hten decide they need to find their Oyster card whilst blocking the exit, (despite gate being open) in much the same way, we've all at some time or another been ages in a supermarket queue only to have to watch as the person in front packs all their shopping and waits for the cashier to ask them before they then spend 2 mns trying to find their wallets despite knowing they would need it and could have got themselves sorted beforehand. People are stupid and it seems to be getting worse, add to this the effects of panic and the fact that a lot of tourists probably won't have a clue what's happening. I know I'd rather lose £5 than my life, but unfortunatly in a case like this no matter how sensisble I and others might be, it only needs 1 persons to screw it up for everyone else. |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:08:01 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct. -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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Sorry, Talk Like A Pirate Day was weeks ago.
Charlie -- Remove NO-SPOO-PLEASE from my email address to reply Please send no unsolicited email or foodstuffs |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:08:01 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct. True - but trying to explain to people that they should always touch in and touch out to avoid paying a £4 fare, except if they have a valid season ticket, except if they need to travel outside their zones, will just end up confusing most. Given that people have so much difficulty understanding the difference between prepay and season tickets loaded onto Oyster, it's probably best to cut one's losses and just tell everyone to touch in/out - at least that way, there is no room for confusion and everyone is guaranteed to pay the right fare (even if it's £0). I noticed the other day that there are now signs which make the validators at Olympia more prominent. I hope that attitude is taken elsewhere on the system too. -- Dave Arquati www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
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On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 19:40:09 +0000, Dave Arquati
wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct. True - but trying to explain to people that they should always touch in and touch out to avoid paying a £4 fare, except if they have a valid season ticket, except if they need to travel outside their zones, will just end up confusing most. Given that people have so much difficulty understanding the difference between prepay and season tickets loaded onto Oyster, it's probably best to cut one's losses and just tell everyone to touch in/out - at least that way, there is no room for confusion and everyone is guaranteed to pay the right fare (even if it's £0). I take the point but I still believe the absence of a full explanatory set of information is a serious omission. Yes many may choose not to read it but a fair proportion of customers would. With numerical examples showing how the system adds up the value, applies caps and treats non validation I'm sure we could get a better informed passenger base. Much of the most basic information about thresholds, going into negative value, journey times etc is not made clear anywhere in the public domain - that has to be wrong. I noticed the other day that there are now signs which make the validators at Olympia more prominent. I hope that attitude is taken elsewhere on the system too. Tell me about it - we have had to make sure all the signs for JNP were done to time. It's taken a big effort given that we have struggled to get a correct specification out of the people in charge of the change. I had to point out to people that they probably hadn't considered several issues - they then asked who I was to be raising such issues. I told them what my old job was - they went a bit quiet ;-) -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
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How to confuse absolutely everybody. The whole thing is a disaster! Of all station announcements I heard - *none* stated the size of the fee (all use "maximum cash fare", which does not say anything to passengers), and most made some important omissions: * Liverpool Street announcer does not say that this is for Oyster Pay-As-You-Go* - she just says Oyster * Stratford announcer does not say anything about Oyster at all (just "if you don't touch in or touch out") and all with a very threatening voice (IMHO) * I think only DLR got everything correctly Then again Stratford announcements should not be any indication - they had big problems with automatic announcer during entire week (it skipped names of several stations - "service to ... and ... arrives at platform 10"). Finally they started using live person, and boy she's fast! ("service to Ilfordsevenkingromforgideaparkaroldwoodshenfilbile ricawickford and southend victoria"). And with horrible accent. |
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In message , David of Broadway
writes Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really financially viable). -- Paul G Typing from Barking |
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Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway writes Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really financially viable). Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. Most Underground travelers encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest. That's very much unlike the current system, in which PAYG users are implicitly assumed to be dishonest while Travelcard users are implicitly assumed to be honest. You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Sun, 19 Nov 2006 18:08:01 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! No - the issue is getting the publicity and information correct. And my point is that the information is intrinsically (and, IMO, unnecessarily) complicated, so it's no wonder that it's being misunderstood. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote: Paul G wrote: In message , David of Broadway writes Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really financially viable). Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey". Most Underground travelers encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest. Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone. |
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James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: Paul G wrote: In message , David of Broadway writes Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really financially viable). Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey". Only where they can do the same with paper tickets. Most Underground travelers encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest. Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone. Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? I certainly never noticed it on my recent visits to London. So why would they suddenly be new problems with Oyster? And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current fare structure? -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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In message , David of Broadway
writes Paul G wrote: In message , David of Broadway writes Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really financially viable). Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. Most Underground travelers encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest. Would be lovely; sadly people aren't always honest. Indeed crime goes down when you put more ticket inspectors in place (on National Rail). That's why you need checks and balances in the system. You're also ignoring that most London National Rail stations don't have ticket barriers (although this could be dealt with by your point below) and it's not viable; nor are ticket barriers closed at unmanned stations; nor can users touch out if they didn't touch in (e.g. zone extensions from stations outside of the Oyster area); I'm sure there's more That's very much unlike the current system, in which PAYG users are implicitly assumed to be dishonest while Travelcard users are implicitly assumed to be honest. There's (currently) no alternatively for Travelcard users. It's a case of better to accurately categorise some journeys than none at all. You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined. Again this wouldn't cover all situations (see above), unless there was a flat fare style system. I would have also thought there are more carriages than stations, so it would have extra cost implications. -- Paul G Typing from Barking |
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David of Broadway typed
Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? I certainly never noticed it on my recent visits to London. So why would they suddenly be new problems with Oyster? I've certainly been tailgated; I believe it can be a major problem. And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current fare structure? Many station gatelines are open and unstaffed for much of the day. Many chanced travelling ticketless hoping they would meet no challenge or pay a minimal fare on arrival. When the Revenue Protection squads 'blitzed' there were quite a few fare dodgers on the platforms. Some escaped by train. -- Helen D. Vecht: Edgware. |
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Paul G wrote: You're also ignoring that most London National Rail stations don't have ticket barriers (although this could be dealt with by your point below) and it's not viable; nor are ticket barriers closed at unmanned stations; nor can users touch out if they didn't touch in (e.g. zone extensions from stations outside of the Oyster area); I'm sure there's more You wouldn't need barriers, just machines in which Oyster users could touch in-out. That's what they have on DLR. And that line also has reasonably frequent inspections on the trains. Again this wouldn't cover all situations (see above), unless there was a flat fare style system. I would have also thought there are more carriages than stations, so it would have extra cost implications. I agree, touch in/out on trains is not appropriate. A texting system would work well as an option. Those with season tickets though should not have to go out of their way to send a text every time they use the service. |
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"David of Broadway" wrote in message ... You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined. So how many readers do you propose installing in each carriage to deal with peak loadings and how do you propose to deal with the increased dwell time whilst customers alighting ensure they swipe? |
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No there won't as there are special facilities built into the entire system to deal with emergency situations. These have been enhanced to add new functionality as part of the software developments to support this change to pre-pay arrangements. No it doesn't. On Saturday there was a "one under" at Camden Town which, coupled with planned engineering work, took out a major part of the Northern Line. Despite the "software developments" Pauln refers to, it took 3 or 4 people around in the NOC working flat-out over 45 minutes to make the necessary changes to gate settings at all the stations so-affected. In fact since the NOC started "dry running" this procedure prior to today's launch of capping etc it has been common for an incident to be over before all such settings have managed to be applied, such is the user-unfriendliness of the program. A classic comment yesterday from someone at Prestige was that it wasn't the fault of their system, but rather that it was now "being used too much"!!! For example, a simple service suspension requires auto-continuation, auto-completion and emergency bit (return all paper tickets) put on at each termination point, each adjacent station on any line serving that station and any other stations within walking distance but not directly linked (i.e. Aldgate to Aldgate East, Bayswater to Queensway). In addition settings have to be altered at all stations along the suspended section too. Changes have to be applied and taken off separately in most cases. Nor are these changes applied and removed at the same times. Some settings must be applied imediately, some are back-dated 3 hours before the incident commenced, some are removed 1 hour after the service resumes and/or the station reopens, others must be left on for the seven following days! |
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On 19 Nov 2006 12:21:31 -0800, alex_t wrote:
* I think only DLR got everything correctly The DLR now has lots of extra signs at Bank telling pay-as-you-go users and now travelcard users using extensions to touch in at the validator there but I still haven't seen a reason why it is needed if you touched in when you began your tube journey to Bank. The DLR staff on the trains and at the odd station blockade don't seem to mind if you haven't made this extra validation. David |
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In article 70,
Adrian wrote: I think you miss his point. The problem isn't a question of "Will people _have_ to touch out?" but more one of "Will people _think_ they still need to touch out, and try, causing chaos?" I saw a similar "unintended consequences" type problem the other week in a section of motorway that had been reduced to one lane with a 50mph limit enforced by SPECS cameras. There was a police car with the blue lights and siren going, and it was stuck at 50mph because nobody in front of it was willing to get a speeding ticket. |
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Robin Mayes wrote:
"David of Broadway" wrote in message ... You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined. So how many readers do you propose installing in each carriage to deal with peak loadings and how do you propose to deal with the increased dwell time whilst customers alighting ensure they swipe? Two by each door (one on each side). I don't know what kind of increased dwells we're looking at. How long does it take to touch in or out? This is only an issue at stations without Oyster readers, which are presumably the less busy ones. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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Paul G wrote:
In message , David of Broadway writes Paul G wrote: In message , David of Broadway writes Paul Corfield wrote: How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. Hmmm. Didn't somebody suggest right here on this newsgroup that, whatever the rules are, they should apply to everybody, PAYG and Travelcard alike? Maybe there was some sense in that suggestion! PAYG and travelcard rules can't be alike for various technical reasons (currently including many national rail stations without Oystercard readers), unless all PAYG users pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey (which I suspect isn't really financially viable). Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. Most Underground travelers encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest. Would be lovely; sadly people aren't always honest. Indeed crime goes down when you put more ticket inspectors in place (on National Rail). That's why you need checks and balances in the system. Obviously. You're also ignoring that most London National Rail stations don't have ticket barriers (although this could be dealt with by your point below) and it's not viable; nor are ticket barriers closed at unmanned stations; nor can users touch out if they didn't touch in (e.g. zone extensions from stations outside of the Oyster area); I'm sure there's more That's why I suggested Oyster readers on the trains. Incidentally, why not leave barriers closed at unmanned stations, with a large, prominent button that would open the barriers in an emergency? (The person pushing the button would be caught on video, so he might not want to push the button frivolously on a regular basis.) That's very much unlike the current system, in which PAYG users are implicitly assumed to be dishonest while Travelcard users are implicitly assumed to be honest. There's (currently) no alternatively for Travelcard users. It's a case of better to accurately categorise some journeys than none at all. Understood. But surely the vast majority of Travelcard users are traveling between stations with Oyster readers, no? In any case, it's been announced that all NR stations within the zones will be receiving Oyster readers in the coming years. So the problem is a temporary one, in any case. You want to assume dishonesty? Fine. Install Oyster readers on the trains themselves. If your station doesn't have a reader, you can touch in or out when you enter or exit the train. Anybody who fails to touch in and out, regardless of fare type (PAYG or Travelcard), is fined. Again this wouldn't cover all situations (see above), unless there was a flat fare style system. What situations am I missing? If, for whatever reason, you didn't touch in at the station, you can touch in on the train. I suppose that, getting off, you need to know in advance whether to touch out on the train or not -- there could be an announcement on the train, and the readers could be programmed not to get confused if somebody touches out on the train and again a few minutes later in the station. I would have also thought there are more carriages than stations, so it would have extra cost implications. What about people coming from outside the zones? -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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David of Broadway wrote: (The person pushing the button would be caught on video, so he might not want to push the button frivolously on a regular basis.) You mean in the same way that town centre CCTVs do such a good job of catching peoples faces when they're wearing a hoodie? Besides which unless the camera can ID someone by their eyes then all someone has to do is put their arm in front of their face as they go through. B2003 |
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On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 06:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote: James Farrar wrote: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey". Only where they can do the same with paper tickets. I don't follow this. Can you explain further? Most Underground travelers encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest. Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone. Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? It happens to me maybe 5-6 times a year, so of the order of 1 gate usage in 250. About half the time, I notice it happening, and stop dead on the far side of the gate, causing the perpetrator to be foiled by the closing gate. And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current fare structure? Under PAYG-users-pay-minimum, a passenger travelling from Z6 to Z1 can jump/follow at their first station, knowing that when they get to the final station, they'll only be charged the Z1 fare. Having to jump/follow twice is far more risky. People still do it, but fewer than would if they only have to do it once. |
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If LU didn't bother to spec the system properly and just bought whatever the manufacturer dished up then more fool them. Totally agree but it's the passenger that's going to suffer in the short/medium term by being charged £4 penalties. |
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and believe me there's director-level meetings going on regarding this
farce! |
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James Farrar wrote:
On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 06:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: James Farrar wrote: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey". Only where they can do the same with paper tickets. I don't follow this. Can you explain further? Wherever you claim that (in the absence of a penalty fare) PAYG users can get by with paying the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey, so can paper ticket users. And, for that matter, Travelcard users. It's only PAYG users who are being subjected to this additional degree of scrutiny. Somebody traveling on a paper ticket or Travelcard from an ungated station to a Z1 station can get by with a Z1 ticket, even if his ungated station of origin is in Z6, unless he's caught outside his zones. Most Underground travelers encounter barriers at both ends, so they will be forced to be honest. Or jump gates, or follow others through the gates. Which would happen in large numbers for people travelling more than one zone. Have jumping and following been major problems with paper tickets? It happens to me maybe 5-6 times a year, so of the order of 1 gate usage in 250. In other words, the issue can't be ignored entirely, but it's not a terribly big deal either. About half the time, I notice it happening, and stop dead on the far side of the gate, causing the perpetrator to be foiled by the closing gate. Nice! Aside from history, why does the Tube use gates rather than turnstiles? It seems to me that turnstiles would be more resistant to this sort of abuse. (Although the floor-to-ceiling "high entry-exit turnstiles" that are installed in New York at unattended entrances make it particularly easy. Just the other day, I saw two high school kids get ticketed for sharing a fare.) And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current fare structure? Under PAYG-users-pay-minimum, a passenger travelling from Z6 to Z1 can jump/follow at their first station, knowing that when they get to the final station, they'll only be charged the Z1 fare. Having to jump/follow twice is far more risky. People still do it, but fewer than would if they only have to do it once. What about ungated stations? Jumping/following yields a free ride, regardless of fare structure. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway
wrote: James Farrar wrote: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 06:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: James Farrar wrote: On Mon, 20 Nov 2006 02:08:03 GMT, David of Broadway wrote: Sure they can. They can implicitly assume that everybody is honest, barring any evidence to the contrary. That would require PAYG users to "pay the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey". Only where they can do the same with paper tickets. I don't follow this. Can you explain further? Wherever you claim that (in the absence of a penalty fare) PAYG users can get by with paying the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey, so can paper ticket users. No. Paper ticket holders have to jump/follow through two gates, not one. Somebody traveling on a paper ticket or Travelcard from an ungated station to a Z1 station can get by with a Z1 ticket, even if his ungated station of origin is in Z6, unless he's caught outside his zones. How's he supposed to get a Z1 paper ticket if he starts in Z6? And why wouldn't jumping and following not be problems under the current fare structure? Under PAYG-users-pay-minimum, a passenger travelling from Z6 to Z1 can jump/follow at their first station, knowing that when they get to the final station, they'll only be charged the Z1 fare. Having to jump/follow twice is far more risky. People still do it, but fewer than would if they only have to do it once. What about ungated stations? Jumping/following yields a free ride, regardless of fare structure. If it's done at *both* ends, yes. |
Arrrrrrrrgh
On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 05:08:02 GMT, David of Broadway wrote:
Wherever you claim that (in the absence of a penalty fare) PAYG users can get by with paying the minimum possible fare instead of the correct fare for their journey, so can paper ticket users. And, for that matter, Travelcard users. It's only PAYG users who are being subjected to this additional degree of scrutiny. Somebody traveling on a paper ticket or Travelcard from an ungated station to a Z1 station can get by with a Z1 ticket, even if his ungated station of origin is in Z6, unless he's caught outside his zones. The caught outside his zones bit is the key. A paper ticket user that gets on in zone 1 with a zone 1 only ticket going to an ungated zone 4 station might get caught by an inspection. A pre-pay user will be okay if they get stopped and if they don't could "forget" to touch out to save themselves some money. David |
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"David of Broadway" wrote in message ... Aside from history, why does the Tube use gates rather than turnstiles? They are far more convenient for passengers than turnstiles (comparing London with Paris, for example). It seems to me that turnstiles would be more resistant to this sort of abuse. Not on the evidence of Paris, where several times I've seen people jumping over turnstiles. There is always a balance to be struck between convenience to the law-abiding majority and measures to defeat the criminals. -- Richard J. (to email me, swap 'uk' and 'yon' in address) |
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David Walters wrote: The caught outside his zones bit is the key. A paper ticket user that gets on in zone 1 with a zone 1 only ticket going to an ungated zone 4 station might get caught by an inspection. A pre-pay user will be okay if they get stopped and if they don't could "forget" to touch out to save themselves some money. and what about someone with a zone 1 season AND some pre-pay on their oyster? They can travel to any ungated station outside (if it has a touch-out, like a DLR station). If an inspector comes outside of zone they just say they are going out of zone which is allowed as they have some pre-pay. Then when they get to the other end they just don't touch out. |
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In message .com, Earl
Purple writes David Walters wrote: The caught outside his zones bit is the key. A paper ticket user that gets on in zone 1 with a zone 1 only ticket going to an ungated zone 4 station might get caught by an inspection. A pre-pay user will be okay if they get stopped and if they don't could "forget" to touch out to save themselves some money. and what about someone with a zone 1 season AND some pre-pay on their oyster? They can travel to any ungated station outside (if it has a touch-out, like a DLR station). If an inspector comes outside of zone they just say they are going out of zone which is allowed as they have some pre-pay. Then when they get to the other end they just don't touch out. The system is unlikely to catch them at the moment, although if Oyster gets expanded beyond London there is less opportunity for this. -- Paul G Typing from Barking |
Arrrrrrrrgh
Paul Corfield wrote:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/6161498.stm "Passengers are being warned to use their Oyster Cards correctly or face paying more for their journeys. From Sunday, if passengers do not touch the electronic smartcard on the reader on entry or exit to a station, they could be charged up to £4. The cost of not doing so could rise to £5 if journeys are started or ended at certain national rail stations. Transport for London said if the card is not scanned it does not know the correct fare to apply." How to confuse absolutely everybody. I've already seen people looking very confused when they have heard the announcements and read the posters about the change to pre-pay only rules. Shame no one has made that distinction in the publicity. I don't know where you work in LU, but it seems to me that there is also a belief that oyster cards never fail. I had one card that worked flawlessly, however since moving from a pass to pre-pay I chose to work down the balances of other cards I have for visitors, so I ended up on the third, this was notoriously unreliable. On Sunday I had had enough and asked for an exchange, it was explained to me that I was not using it properly, it was explained back that the I was well aware how to use them and this one specifically did not work. Again I was told I was not listening - this went on for a bit the queue got larger LU employee did not care and refused to exchange. So I had to change tack, "I would like to return this card and get my deposit back" - apparently there was a 50 deficit, okay I'll take 2.50, I can even give you 50p and you can return me £3 - cue two LU staff not having a clue - me getting bored ask can the see the £3 deposit, they could, in which case give me £2.50, take the card and sort out the paperwork when the queue has died - only until I suggested that they were clearly taking the mick, there was no reason they could not do what I suggested that no doing so was hardly "customer service" including the rest of the queue did they do so. Point of story - Arrrrrrrrgh back to LU, a simple request met with jobsworth ****e and lack of willingness to be helpful is LU all over. Did I mention the rammed train of sardines being held "To regulate the service", to the drivers credit, he did say he had radioed the line controller to point out the ridiculousness, at which point we did move only to be held a station later to regulate the service. So line controller have no memory or are just crap. Stop whinging about the media, sort out your own shop - the attitude that it is not your job but someone elses is rife in LU - pass the buck and screw the passenger. LU is a disgrace, northern line still ****e now because of a problem at 5pm FFS. Tell me something good about LU this week - or STFU about how you are reported. |
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