Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

In message , Gordon Joly
writes
underlining again my theory that bus staff (in general) find passengers
an annoyance....

Number of times I have seen elderly people flying down the bus as the
bus driver does 0-60 in under 3 seconds I think they don't find them an
annoyance. They just aren't paid enough to give a ****.
L.U. Staff however are paid enough to give a **** but just find all
passengers an annoyance.
--
CJG

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

CJG writes
as the bus driver does 0-60 in under 3 seconds

Yeah, right.

--
Dave

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Jeff Mowatt writes

I can tell you for one that I supported Ken Livingstone's campaign
financially purely in the hope that he would live up to the promise of
re-introducing conductors on all London routes Since this and a lot of
other improvements didn't happen and a lot of excuses have been made, I've
come to regard our Mayor as a bit of a flake in more recent times.

Indeed, Ken did promise more conductors on buses. (I know that London
Buses purchased Routemasters for refurbishment and re-use, although I
can't remember if that was pre-GLA or not.) Use of conductors on
'conventional' buses was tried and failed.

So what does he do, press on with the conductors-policy even though it's
shown to be no good - or try something else that will bring better
benefits? Most politicians would tend to be dogmatic and press on with
implementing a flawed policy (e.g. Maggie & her poll tax), I much prefer
a politician who takes the pragmatic course.

--
Dave

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:23:52 +0000 (UTC), "Jeff Mowatt"
wrote:

I can tell you for one that I supported Ken Livingstone's campaign
financially purely in the hope that he would live up to the promise of
re-introducing conductors on all London routes Since this and a lot of
other improvements didn't happen and a lot of excuses have been made, I've
come to regard our Mayor as a bit of a flake in more recent times.

Which other improvements haven't happened?

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Dave,

I'm not sure what you mean by "tried and failed" can you be more specific?
I'm only aware that since the 70's conductors have become almost extinct
excepting parhaps on routes like the 159 which travel through the most
congested parts of London.

From your description of a conventional bus, I imagine that your experience
doesn't go back too far. For me the Routemaster was the last of the
conventional buses before the "biscuit tins" began to appear in the early
70's. These were a complete disaster as they decided to do away with
conductors and install a turnstile system which jammed constantly, and the
driver would have to be getting out of his seat forever attempting to fix
the problem. Eventually these ticket machines were completely roped off.

Now back in the days of the Routemaster and it's RT predecessor which
incidentally still provides service in many other parts of the world, there
were queues for buses. Any conductor worth his salt would ensure that
passengers standing in the queue would be allowed on first. Buses always
stopped at compulsory stops and the conductor would check that passengers
were safely seated before instructing the driver to proceed. There were no
feet on seats or passengers sneaking on the back to avoid paying fares and I
can't recall ever being in the situation where a bus had been brought to a
standstill due to an all out brawl or robbery on the top deck. I wish I
could say the same today.

Even today if you take a look at the windows on a bus, although it can be
seen to some degree on all of them, the ones with the windows graffitied to
near opacity are the modern kind that don't have conductors. Can you see
these buses getting anywhere near the 45 odd years service that Routemasters
have provided so far? We pay immense amounts of money to replenish and
refurbished vandalised buses and something as short sighted as removing
conductors in the interests of economy astonishes quite a few of us that
knew the "good old days" before anti-social behaviour, seemingly sanctioned
by LT, began to make buses dirty, uncomfortable and intimidating.

Now if this was what you meant by tried and failed, quite frankly I just
can't see what better benefits there could be.

Jeff Mowatt





"Dave" wrote in message
...
Jeff Mowatt writes

I can tell you for one that I supported Ken Livingstone's campaign
financially purely in the hope that he would live up to the promise of
re-introducing conductors on all London routes Since this and a lot of
other improvements didn't happen and a lot of excuses have been made,
I've
come to regard our Mayor as a bit of a flake in more recent times.

Indeed, Ken did promise more conductors on buses. (I know that London
Buses purchased Routemasters for refurbishment and re-use, although I
can't remember if that was pre-GLA or not.) Use of conductors on
'conventional' buses was tried and failed.

So what does he do, press on with the conductors-policy even though it's
shown to be no good - or try something else that will bring better
benefits? Most politicians would tend to be dogmatic and press on with
implementing a flawed policy (e.g. Maggie & her poll tax), I much prefer
a politician who takes the pragmatic course.

--
Dave

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 19:33:08 +0000 (UTC), "Jeff Mowatt"
wrote:


Now back in the days of the Routemaster and it's RT predecessor which
incidentally still provides service in many other parts of the world, there
were queues for buses. Any conductor worth his salt would ensure that
passengers standing in the queue would be allowed on first. Buses always
stopped at compulsory stops and the conductor would check that passengers
were safely seated before instructing the driver to proceed. There were no
feet on seats or passengers sneaking on the back to avoid paying fares and I
can't recall ever being in the situation where a bus had been brought to a
standstill due to an all out brawl or robbery on the top deck. I wish I
could say the same today.


Been on a Routemaster recently? You'll be lucky if the conductor
wanders away from his book on the platform.

Rob.l
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

"Dave" wrote in message
...

Use of conductors on
'conventional' buses was tried and failed.

Why? My experience was that the conductors (mostly women) stood at the front
and flirted with the driver (mostly men) throughout the whole journey, and
wouldn't let anyone pass them without buying a ticket. So the failure was
not in the policy, but in management failure to train/discipline/choose the
right staff. This problem obviously cannot occur on routemasters, because
the driver is sealed away from the conductor: maybe sealing the driver away
from the conductor would enable conductors to work on any bus.

What happened about Routemistress, or whatever the replacement was to be
called? Or is the bendibus the result of that project?

--
John Rowland - Spamtrapped
Transport Plans for the London Area, updated 2001
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Acro...69/tpftla.html
A man's vehicle is a symbol of his manhood.
That's why my vehicle's the Piccadilly Line -
It's the size of a county and it comes every two and a half minutes

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

That's true, they aren't what they used to be!.

Jeff

Been on a Routemaster recently? You'll be lucky if the conductor
wanders away from his book on the platform.

Rob.l
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Well, apart from the comfort and safety issues I've already mentioned
there's what John has beaten me to bringing up, the "Bendy bus" and "Son of
Routemaster"



"Robert Woolley" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 06:23:52 +0000 (UTC), "Jeff Mowatt"
wrote:

I can tell you for one that I supported Ken Livingstone's campaign
financially purely in the hope that he would live up to the promise of
re-introducing conductors on all London routes Since this and a lot of
other improvements didn't happen and a lot of excuses have been made,
I've
come to regard our Mayor as a bit of a flake in more recent times.

Which other improvements haven't happened?

Rob.
--
rob at robertwoolley dot co dot uk

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Jeff Mowatt writes

I can tell you for one that I supported Ken Livingstone's campaign
financially purely in the hope that he would live up to the promise
of re-introducing conductors on all London routes Since this and a
lot of other improvements didn't happen and a lot of excuses have
come to regard our Mayor as a bit of a flake in more recent times.

Which other improvements haven't happened?

Well, apart from the comfort and safety issues I've already mentioned
there's what John has beaten me to bringing up, the "Bendy bus" and "Son of
Routemaster"

[Please don't quote upside-down]

Safety - more revenue inspection personnel and a greater Police presence
on buses.

Comfort - what you mentioned was passenger discourtesy, not much that
Ken can do about that.

Bendy buses - not sure what your point is here. Are you saying they are
a good thing, bad thing, they premised to introduce more of them, etc.
There are plenty of them in operation now on Red Arrow routes 507/521
plus other routes that have been 'split' (436, 453/N453). Route 18 is
due to get them in the Autumn and 149 by next Spring.

Son of Routemaster - well you'll have to tell me about that.

--
Dave

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Safety - more revenue inspection personnel and a greater Police presence
on buses.


Unseen in my area and certainly not at night when risks are greater, this is
only rhetoric I'm sorry to say. As an example I spent many days in dialogue
with TFL trying to find out why a driver failed to summon the police when a
riot broke out on the top deck. They are a very slippery bunch indeed when
it comes to pinning them down to take some kind of action.

Comfort - what you mentioned was passenger discourtesy, not much that
Ken can do about that.

Passenger discourtesy is certainly part of the problem, but as I pointed out
it the situation deteriorated when conductors were removed because those
with anti-social attitudes took advantage of the lack of an authoritative
presence. Even today, there's a certain comfort in knowing that when things
get out of hand, there's someone there who can be appealed to for
assistance. You don't have to tell me it one will probably not get any but
the presence of a conductor, however useless is a deterrent all the same.


Bendy buses - not sure what your point is here. Are you saying they are
a good thing, bad thing, they premised to introduce more of them, etc.
There are plenty of them in operation now on Red Arrow routes 507/521
plus other routes that have been 'split' (436, 453/N453). Route 18 is
due to get them in the Autumn and 149 by next Spring.

Son of Routemaster - well you'll have to tell me about that.

Something suggested as the replacement for the tired old RM a few years ago
which may well have turned out to be the bendy bus, yet to be seen in SW
London. Don't know whether they are good ar bad yet but they certaintly do
the job in other parts of Europe and the question was about improvement's
that hadn't happened. I'll only know when I experience the pleasure.

Come to think of it the 149 used to come here and go all the way to
Shepherds Bush, but that was a long time ago.

Jeff Mowatt

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Jeff Mowatt writes
but the presence of a conductor, however useless is a deterrent all
the same.

If 'useless', then clearly the presence of a conductor is *not* a
deterrent.

--
Dave

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

It does seem fairly obvious that there is more vandalism and hooliganism on
buses without a conductor. This does not mean that conductors are allways able
to stop it - on late-night buses particularly conductors (and conductresses)
themselves have frequently been the unfortunate victims of violence, including
stabbings, by the fine upstanding young of London.
I remember once a clippie (there, showing my age!) saying she would use her
ticket machine(swung from a strap round her wrist) as a weapon if she had to,
even if it meant losing her job. Judging from the reported threat to a driver
who threw tea, it would undoubtedly mean her being penalised for defending
herself.
But quite often the trouble these days comes from quite young kids who can be
quelled if dealt with firmly by an adult. Unfortunately many adult travellers
today seem too cowed to do anything except stare intently out the window when
something is going on, and don't even resist when they themselves are
targetted.
But a conductor (when I was a kid they were sometimes also called "guards")
would instil more confidence in the public and remove some of the cockiness
from the yobs.
More positively, we would have fewer accidents such as old people (and kids)
being thrown to the floor, or small kids trapped in closing doors, if the
driver was not having to collect fares, then start up, and was not expected to
know what was going on in the bus while keeping his or her eyes on the road and
traffic. (I've seen people thrown down because the driver had to suddenly stop
because some motorist suddenly pulled across in front. At least if someone was
there to offer a steadying hand to the passenger...)
One last point, to those who have offered examples of conductors not doing
their job properly. LT used to employ not only uniformed 'Blakey' inspectors
but plainclothes ones who hopped on the bus to check on the conductor (and in
one case I know, even acted as a bit of a provocateur). There seemed to be
more regulations in those days too, like how many standing passengers could be
carried, and so forth.

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

CharlesPottins writes
LT used to employ not only uniformed 'Blakey' inspectors
but plainclothes ones who hopped on the bus to check on the conductor (and in
one case I know, even acted as a bit of a provocateur).

Plenty of plain-clothes inspectors these days - checking tickets and so
forth.

There seemed to be more regulations in those days too, like how many
standing passengers could be carried, and so forth.

Er, there still are rules regarding the maximum number of standees.

--
Dave

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 12:20:58 +0100, Dave
wrote:

Er, there still are rules regarding the maximum number of standees.

Indeed there are - and fewer are permitted when crew-operated, leading
to the ridiculous situation where, on a busy modern decker which was
being crew-operated, I had to go upstairs and take a seat rather than
standing downstairs, which I would have preferred to do as I was
making a short journey.

Going a bit off-topic, the Blackpool Tramway is rather strict on the
number of standees, making it (at peak times) a bit of a joke as a
public transport operation rather than an interesting curiosity -
which suggests to me that the rules under which it operates are closer
to those of a "classic" crew-operated bus service rather than a modern
tram with conductors like those in (for example) Sheffield.

Neil

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Dave wrote:
CharlesPottins writes
LT used to employ not only uniformed 'Blakey' inspectors
but plainclothes ones who hopped on the bus to check on the
conductor (and in one case I know, even acted as a bit of a
provocateur).

Plenty of plain-clothes inspectors these days - checking tickets and
so forth.

where are they then? It is *years* since my ticket has been checked. I
regularly (approx twice weekly) use the bus between Picadilly and
Hammersmith. I can regularly do that whole journey on the 9 without being
asked for a fare or ticket at all if I sit upstairs.


There seemed to be more regulations in those days too, like how many
standing passengers could be carried, and so forth.

Er, there still are rules regarding the maximum number of standees.

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

Surprised to learn there are still rules, I thought deregulation had taken
effect. It may seem kindly of the driver to let people crowd on to the
gunwhales(sp?) in some circumstances, but is it wise?
Apart from safety considerations, it can be a damn nuisance trying to get
through a crowded gangway to get off at your stop. I used to regularly
experience this boarding a westbound single-deck bus opposite Westminster City
Hall, it would get crowded going by Victoria, and then it was really difficult
trying to get off by Ebury Bridge, especially if I was carrying shopping.
More recently taking a 112 from Ealing I found it difficult squeezing past
people to get off on the N.Circular. Incidentally, glad to see double deckers
introduced on the 297 route, which can be quite busy sometimes, especially in
the mornings.

Bus Conductors and Drivers (again).
 

CharlesPottins writes
Surprised to learn there are still rules, I thought deregulation had
taken effect.

1. Deregulation never happened in London.
2. That's not what deregulation was about anyway.

Deregulation was about allowing 'open-access' competition. If you had a
bus or buses; you could effectively run it/them on any route, at any
time, charging whatever fare you wished. There are still rules about
having to register services and meeting all the safety requirements,
etc.

--
Dave