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Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Last night at about 1830 I was at Tottenham Court Road. Of the three
escalators which lead up to the ticket hall, two were coming down and only one was going up, which is in itself unusual. This meant that there was a big crowd building at the bottom of the one up escalator. At Tottenham Court Road, when you get to the bottom of the escalators, you're meant to go straight ahead for the Central Line, or left for the Northern Line. However, if you go right, you can also get to the Central Line, but you're walking against one of the exit routes from the CL. As I said, last night there was a big crowd at the bottom of the up escalator, which meant that loads of people who were trying to cut down this way were shoving their way through an already large crowd. I said to one woman who was screaming out "Excuse me! Let me through!" that if she'd go the signposted way it'd be much easier on everyone. Needless to state I got a mouthful of abuse. There was a member of staff at the bottom of the escalators. He had one of those temporary barrier things partially erected. All he needed to do was extend it out slightly further and the problem would have gone away, as people would have been forced to walk straight ahead for the Central Line, thus creating two clear pathways, one in and one out. Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube staff enforce the one way systems properly? It's not just at TCR, although the example above is one of the worst on the system; I've almost never seen barriers in place to enforce the routing, only signage. Is it something to do with fire regulations, that you can't "block" any entrance or exit? Patrick |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
wrote in message
ups.com... Last night at about 1830 I was at Tottenham Court Road. Of the three escalators which lead up to the ticket hall, two were coming down and only one was going up, which is in itself unusual. This meant that there was a big crowd building at the bottom of the one up escalator. At Tottenham Court Road, when you get to the bottom of the escalators, you're meant to go straight ahead for the Central Line, or left for the Northern Line. However, if you go right, you can also get to the Central Line, but you're walking against one of the exit routes from the CL. As I said, last night there was a big crowd at the bottom of the up escalator, which meant that loads of people who were trying to cut down this way were shoving their way through an already large crowd. I said to one woman who was screaming out "Excuse me! Let me through!" that if she'd go the signposted way it'd be much easier on everyone. Needless to state I got a mouthful of abuse. There was a member of staff at the bottom of the escalators. He had one of those temporary barrier things partially erected. All he needed to do was extend it out slightly further and the problem would have gone away, as people would have been forced to walk straight ahead for the Central Line, thus creating two clear pathways, one in and one out. Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube staff enforce the one way systems properly? It's not just at TCR, although the example above is one of the worst on the system; I've almost never seen barriers in place to enforce the routing, only signage. Is it something to do with fire regulations, that you can't "block" any entrance or exit? That's a damned fine question. I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations during rush hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well, ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into each other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them, blocking the two-people-wide passageways. People stopping when at the top of escalators, even if they're walking the left. Plus, couple in the usual London pedestrian insanity (randomply stopping dead, or even better, randomly walking backwards), and people just straight-up not looking where they're going, and the network is in shambles, simply due to people wandering through the station like they're on heroin, seeminly incapable to realise when they're getting in other peoples' way. Don't even get me started on people reading newspapers when walking along... ****ers. dave Patrick |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
d wrote:
I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations during rush hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well, ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into each other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them, blocking the two-people-wide passageways. They are not *blocking* the passageway. They just limit your ability to walk faster, just as in any other crowded traffic situation. Does it really matter if you get to the platform 5 seconds later? (The chance of missing a train due to that delay is less than 5%.) How do you expect a parent to keep a small child safe in a crowded passageway other than by holding the child's hand? -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
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Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
"Jack Taylor" wrote in message ... It would also help if LUL were consistent in their signage, not only on one-way systems. Some staircases are labelled 'Keep Left' (ought to be obvious), some are labelled 'Keep Right' and most are not labelled at all! The same applies to some passageways. It's very common to walk along a passageway on the left and encounter some brainless goon coming the other way, on the right, who resolutely will not move. LU possibly use different markings at either end - keeps everyone amused... Paul |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Jack Taylor wrote:
wrote: Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube staff enforce the one way systems properly? Probably because it is legally unenforceable. I disagree. Other than having an LUL member of staff berating travellers there's not much that they can actually do about it Yes, that's how they would enforce it legally. and staff can be better utilised doing other things, I suspect. But you are probably right about that. |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Michael Hoffman wrote: Jack Taylor wrote: wrote: Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube staff enforce the one way systems properly? Probably because it is legally unenforceable. I disagree. Other than having an LUL member of staff berating travellers there's not much that they can actually do about it Yes, that's how they would enforce it legally. and staff can be better utilised doing other things, I suspect. But you are probably right about that. I encountered the smae situation at TCR on a Saturday a few weeks back, except that the area was a bit less crowded. I think it is down to a large proportion of people being idiots when moving around in places such as underground station. Ambling along three abreast, stopping suddenly to read an advert on the wall, or stopping to hold a conversation. These are meant to be areas where people move through, not recreational areas to do what you want. I got into a discussion about this with someone a while back. Their opinion was that sixty or seventy years ago the Underground was just as crowded, but people were politer and new how to conduct themselves. Then London went through a period when people drove into town, no-one came as tourists because the place was a craphole and the tube was emptier. Now you can't drive in London and the tourists are back, the tube is busy again, but the politeness and intelligence shown by a previous generation has disappeared. Neill |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Jack Taylor wrote: wrote: Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube staff enforce the one way systems properly? Probably because it is legally unenforceable. I'm not really talking about legally enforceable, slapping people with fines for walking down a passageway the wrong way. I mean taking action as outlined in the original post, i.e. putting a barrier up, which would have completely resolved the situation in this instance. Patrick |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Neillw001 wrote:
I encountered the smae situation at TCR on a Saturday a few weeks back, except that the area was a bit less crowded. I think it is down to a large proportion of people being idiots when moving around in places such as underground station. I think that you could have stopped at 'when moving around'! ;-) It's the same everywhere. People, most often of the female persuasion, have a habit of just stopping for no apparent reason, in the middle of a swathe of flowing pedestrians. For some reason, a quick glance over the shoulder before doing so seems to be too much like hard work. A couple of years ago, in the midst of a fairly swiftly moving crowd of pedestrians, the woman in front of me stopped abruptly and bent down (for what I have no idea). I tried desperately to stop in time and ended up very nearly making contact with her voluptuous bottom, leaning over her and very close to falling on top of her. She was utterly oblivious throughout, despite some Anglo-Saxon expletives being aimed in her direction. |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Jack Taylor wrote:
It would also help if LUL were consistent in their signage, not only on one-way systems. Some staircases are labelled 'Keep Left' (ought to be obvious), some are labelled 'Keep Right' and most are not labelled at all! The worst ones tend to be when the normal up escalator is taken out of service and the down is switched to up running. I've seen many a collision at Bank/Monument because on the escalators is running the wrong way to everything else, and everyone in the long corridors is sticking to the side of the esclator they've just come off. |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
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Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk... d wrote: I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations during rush hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well, ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into each other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them, blocking the two-people-wide passageways. They are not *blocking* the passageway. They just limit your ability to walk faster, just as in any other crowded traffic situation. Does it really matter if you get to the platform 5 seconds later? (The chance of missing a train due to that delay is less than 5%.) How do you expect a parent to keep a small child safe in a crowded passageway other than by holding the child's hand? They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling the same speed down a dual carriageway block that, too. And, funnily enough, the delay caused is enough to regularly make me miss trains. I change from the Victoria to the Circle/District lines at Victoria every morning, and train frequency is actually pretty good during rush hour for some reason. Getting caught up anywhere on the few-hundred-metres interchange can most definitely mean enough of a delay to miss a train. It happens on a regular basis. I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In fact it's ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the usual lack of giving a **** about what's around you. It's a really, really common thing to see on the underground. If the mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and walked the kid in front of her, she'd be protecting it a lot more than just letting it drag slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush hour, where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite easily take it out. But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and child, overcrowding the interchange, blocking the escalators, and eventually leading to station closures. dave -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
"Jack Taylor" wrote in message
... Neillw001 wrote: I encountered the smae situation at TCR on a Saturday a few weeks back, except that the area was a bit less crowded. I think it is down to a large proportion of people being idiots when moving around in places such as underground station. I think that you could have stopped at 'when moving around'! ;-) It's the same everywhere. People, most often of the female persuasion, have a habit of just stopping for no apparent reason, in the middle of a swathe of flowing pedestrians. For some reason, a quick glance over the shoulder before doing so seems to be too much like hard work. I don't know if it's mainly the ladies who wander around aimlessly - I've definitely seen guys doing it too. The best is the slow meander across a crowded tunnel, causing everyone to either trip over the individual in question, get pushed forward, walking into each other or somehow predict their movements and perform a bullet-time leap over them. A couple of years ago, in the midst of a fairly swiftly moving crowd of pedestrians, the woman in front of me stopped abruptly and bent down (for what I have no idea). I tried desperately to stop in time and ended up very nearly making contact with her voluptuous bottom, leaning over her and very close to falling on top of her. She was utterly oblivious throughout, despite some Anglo-Saxon expletives being aimed in her direction. The amount of insanity on the underground is startling. I swear some people think it's their living room or something, like they're shuffling around trying to find the remote with a cup of tea in their hand, not walking through a crowded station at rush-hour. Barriers and summary executions for transgressors would speed things along nicely, but then that's just me :-P dave |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
wrote: Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube staff enforce the one way systems properly? It's not just at TCR, although the example above is one of the worst on the system; I've almost never seen barriers in place to enforce the routing, only signage. Is it something to do with fire regulations, that you can't "block" any entrance or exit? Tower Hill in the morning peak is another example of this unnecessary chaos, with people barging up the 'entry only' staircase and tutting if anyone gets in their way. The simple answer here would be to make all the barriers in this lobby 'entry only', forcing people to return to platform level and along to the correct exit, which has a separate set of barriers. Chris |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
d wrote:
"Richard J." wrote in message . uk... d wrote: I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations during rush hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well, ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into each other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them, blocking the two-people-wide passageways. They are not *blocking* the passageway. They just limit your ability to walk faster, just as in any other crowded traffic situation. Does it really matter if you get to the platform 5 seconds later? (The chance of missing a train due to that delay is less than 5%.) How do you expect a parent to keep a small child safe in a crowded passageway other than by holding the child's hand? They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling the same speed down a dual carriageway block that, too. You mean like on the M25 when the variable speed limits are in force? Those are designed to maximise traffic flow on a congested road. People overtaking and weaving in and out of lanes actually reduce total traffic flow. Likewise in Tube passageways. [snip] I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In fact it's ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the usual lack of giving a **** about what's around you. It's a really, really common thing to see on the underground. If the mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and walked the kid in front of her, Have you tried holding a kid's hand and walking him *in front of* you, when he doesn't know where he's supposed to go? ... she'd be protecting it a lot more than just letting it drag slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush hour, where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite easily take it out. But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and child, overcrowding the interchange, No. Overcrowding occurs when there aren't enough trains to handle the waiting passengers. Slowing down the arrival of passengers on the platform, which the mother would achieve according to you, actually reduces overcrowding. blocking the escalators, I thought we were talking about passageways. and eventually leading to station closures. False logic; see above re overcrowding. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
d wrote:
They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling the same speed down a dual carriageway block that, too. And, funnily enough, the delay caused is enough to regularly make me miss trains. I change from the Victoria to the Circle/District lines at Victoria every morning, and train frequency is actually pretty good during rush hour for some reason. Getting caught up anywhere on the few-hundred-metres interchange can most definitely mean enough of a delay to miss a train. It happens on a regular basis. I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In fact it's ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the usual lack of giving a **** about what's around you. It's a really, really common thing to see on the underground. If the mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and walked the kid in front of her, she'd be protecting it a lot more than just letting it drag slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush hour, where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite easily take it out. But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and child, overcrowding the interchange, blocking the escalators, and eventually leading to station closures. dave Agreed totally. I travel National Rail to Victoria District Line every morning, and once I've managed to negotiate those selfish people weaving all over the place with their planet-sized suitcases and those coming up the down direction stairs to the Tube, I then have the pleasure of those idiots who stand around at the top of the stairs to the District Line, or those who think they can get out or change to the Victoria Line using the ticket hall platform stairs. And it's not just a tourist problem, as there are big symbolic "no entry" signs at the bottom, which generally mean the same thing everywhere. I'm actually pretty considerate of my fellow travellers and try not to get in the way. I look and react. Why can't more people do the same? Bring on "speed lanes" for those walkers who want to actually get where they are going today! Cheers Steve M |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
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Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Steve M wrote:
I've managed to negotiate those selfish people weaving all over the place with their planet-sized suitcases and those coming up the down direction stairs to the Tube Who ever designed a bag the size of a small plane and put wheels and a pull up handle on it? Now people travel with their entire life in a bag.. and it's usually so heavy that the owner has to wait for someone to step in and help them up, or down, stairs. A good samaritan soon realises just how heavy the bag is and vows never to help anyone with a house-on-wheels again - meaning we move around waiting ages for the owner to lift their bag up one step at a time. Most of the time, I find it quite funny - but if you're in a rush, I can fully understand why people get angry. Right or wrong, it's going to happen. I'm actually pretty considerate of my fellow travellers and try not to get in the way. I look and react. Me too. It's rather like driving. Walk in a straight line and give a quick look over the shoulder if you're about to cut left or right to speed up (that way you won't cut up the person behind that had the same vision of that gap ahead). If you are wheeling a bag, look to check you don't hit or trip people. It's not rocket science. People with kids are different, as kids are unpredictable and must be kept close in large crowds. Ditto with anyone that is unable to walk due to any disability, old age etc. My problems are rarely with children, but arrogant individuals who have no idea that anyone else even exists around them. Even if they do, they're sure as hell not going to let you pass. On the underground, some considerations could also be made to the positioning of maps/posters and leaflet racks. These are often in places that encourage people to stop dead to read, pick up a tube map etc - with inevitable hold ups. Jonathan |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
"Richard J." wrote in message
. uk... d wrote: "Richard J." wrote in message . uk... d wrote: I've noticed that lots of the overcrowding issues in stations during rush hour are due to people bunching up and doing, well, ridiculous things in public. People slowly meandering across a foot tunnel, causing everyone behind them to stop and bump into each other. Mothers dragging their kids along side them, blocking the two-people-wide passageways. They are not *blocking* the passageway. They just limit your ability to walk faster, just as in any other crowded traffic situation. Does it really matter if you get to the platform 5 seconds later? (The chance of missing a train due to that delay is less than 5%.) How do you expect a parent to keep a small child safe in a crowded passageway other than by holding the child's hand? They *are* blocking the passageway. Just as two cars travelling the same speed down a dual carriageway block that, too. You mean like on the M25 when the variable speed limits are in force? Those are designed to maximise traffic flow on a congested road. People overtaking and weaving in and out of lanes actually reduce total traffic flow. Likewise in Tube passageways. No, I mean like where inconsiderate road users cause congestion. Unless you're suggesting those mothers & kids are actually government-instituted station-calming schemes? :) [snip] I don't have a problem with mothers holding their kids hands. In fact it's ESSENTIAL on the underground. My problem is with the usual lack of giving a **** about what's around you. It's a really, really common thing to see on the underground. If the mother thought about it for 2 seconds, and walked the kid in front of her, Have you tried holding a kid's hand and walking him *in front of* you, when he doesn't know where he's supposed to go? That's why you can steer them by their hands. Kids aren't as stupid as they look. ... she'd be protecting it a lot more than just letting it drag slightly behind her through a crowded station during rush hour, where any stray suitcase/briefcase/ipod/metro/umbrella could quite easily take it out. But I guess everyone should just form a queue behind the mother and child, overcrowding the interchange, No. Overcrowding occurs when there aren't enough trains to handle the waiting passengers. Slowing down the arrival of passengers on the platform, which the mother would achieve according to you, actually reduces overcrowding. No, that would be true if there was a uniform dispersion of passengers throughout a station. Clearly that's not the case. I've seen moderately-empty platforms next to jammed-as-**** pedestrian tunnels, simply because the people were getting jammed up in the tunnels between the platforms and ticket halls. All it takes is some asshat on crowded escalators, and there can be knock-on effects down the rest of the escalator, and indeed only clearing when the escalators become empty enough for the foot traffic to recover. Here's an example: A crowded escalator, the people on the left are walking, those on the right are not. Now, if one person on the left decides to stop walking at the top of the escalator, only for a few metres, it will undoubtedly cause those people behind them to stop. Owing to the full nature of the escalators, that will cause the people behind them to stop, and so-on. But by your logic, it's impossible for that to happen, as overcrowding only happens on platforms. blocking the escalators, I thought we were talking about passageways. I'm talking about everywhere passengers go on the underground, where there is limited real estate for people to hang around in. Escalators, tunnels, etc. and eventually leading to station closures. False logic; see above re overcrowding. No - just stating that overcrowding happens only because there aren't enough trains is false logic, as you pulled that out of your ass, obviously. -- Richard J. (to e-mail me, swap uk and yon in address) dave |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube
staff enforce the one way systems properly? It's not just at TCR, Other favourites: Notting Hill Gate, Central-Circle Oxford Circus Vic-Central is clearly longer to go than CentralVic so plenty of people go via the unsigned route against the flow Kings X Picc/Circle cuts across the top of the Vic escalators Kings X design in general is poorly signed Shep Bush Central entry/exit - pax going w/b use the w/b exit instead of the e/b entrance and crossing platforms. I wasn't sure about Knightsbridge the other day when the walkway from Harrods had lots of "keep right" signage until you get to the three escalators when you had to swap to the left, that's bright ;) Isn't this just a symptom of selfish life these days with a minority having no respect for anyone and exist just to take as much out of life as they can without contributing anything back? I don't blame staff for not enforcing this, they're at a high enough risk of being assaulted in that line of work without provoking it. Some simple turnstiles would probably do the job ;) D |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Jack Taylor wrote:
wrote: Which leads me to the question in the thread header: why don't tube staff enforce the one way systems properly? Probably because it is legally unenforceable. Other than having an LUL member of staff berating travellers there's not much that they can actually do about it - and staff can be better utilised doing other things, I suspect. Actually, it's covered by the LU (and Railway) Byelaws. Specifically, Byelaw 9(4): quote Where there is a notice by an entrance or exit on any part of the railway indicating that it shall be used for entrance or exit only, no person shall enter by the exit or leave by the entrance. No person shall enter or leave by an emergency exit except in an emergency or when directed to do so by an authorised person. /quote Maximum penalty for a breach of any of the Byelaws (except the one regarding Compulsory Ticket Areas, for some reason) is currently £1000 *per offence*. And in the case of Byelaw 9, that also applies for an *attempted* breach. Having said that, *if* anything is done, it's most likely that you'd be asked to leave the station (and assisted to do so using "reasonable force" if necessary), rather than being arrested. Cheers, Barry |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Dave Plumb wrote: I don't blame staff for not enforcing this, they're at a high enough risk of being assaulted in that line of work without provoking it. Some simple turnstiles would probably do the job ;) Exactly - this was my point in the intial post. All the staff had to do at TCR was to extend the portable barrier a bit further. As far as turnstiles or fixed barriers go, there may be some sort of fire rules about them, but I'm not sure. Patrick |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
d wrote: And how many people do you put out by doing that? Remember - just because something is beneficial to you, it doesn't mean it's beneficial to others. What if you saving 3 seconds makes 40 other people delayed by 1 second each? You would have selfishly exchanged 40 people/seconds of other peoples' time for 3 people/seconds of your own. Unless they are changing onto the Central line and miss their train as a result of my action then I'm not really delaying them, whereas if there is a train there then it's more urgent that I need to get through to it. It doesn't help the fact that at Tottenham Court Road you then have to walk quite a way up the platform you don't wish to use to switch over to the Northbound one. If there are people it's probably because there's a train there and I'm not saving 3 seconds, I could be saving 8 minutes or more knowing the Northern Line. The signs are usually there for a reason. To convenience those from the South. Probably the person who designed it travelled in from the South. |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
Exactly - this was my point in the intial post. All the staff had to
do at TCR was to extend the portable barrier a bit further. There used to be a bloke with the temp barriers at Notting Hill Gate each morning and evening but he wouldn't bat an eyelid as people dodged around the barriers. I guess if you were starting from scratch you'd do it all different but we're stuck with what we've got. But new stuff like the Kings X interchange should have been better thought through, the whole thing is a mess with people walking in all directions. Also, why do they insist on putting tube maps inside stations at pinch points? Kings Cross the map is right at the bottom of the stairs from the mainline station :( D |
Quote:
I can't help but wonder if her children learned any new words yesterday or if they are already part of their vocabulary? A. |
Why don't tube staff enforce the routing systems in stations?
AndreaC wrote: I exited TCR from the Northern yesterday lunchtime and although the tunnel between the platform and the escalators is pretty wide, I came up behind a family (mother, 2 children and granny) walking along 4 abreast holding hands. When I said 'excuse me' the mother looked round at me as if I was asking her to sacrifice one of her children, so I then said 'you can't just block the tunnels' at which point I got a torrent of abuse. I can't help but wonder if her children learned any new words yesterday or if they are already part of their vocabulary? Were you coming from the NOrth or from the South? |
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