On Mon, 17 Dec 2006 wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

The width! Ten roads would be about fifty metres across, wouldn't it?
That's a decent amount of space - a row or two of houses, i'd say.

Well, as it happens, there's three rows of houses on there now -
Heddington Grove.

Aha!

So, hang on, what altitude was the yard at? The railway's on a viaduct;
either the sidings were at ground level and there was a big ramp, or they
were at the level of the railway, on a huge platform.

Ah, no - by the time it gets to Caledonian Road, the line's at, indeed
below, ground level, isn't it? Was the entrance to the sidings at the up
or down end? The description given earlier in this thread made me think it
was at the up end, which would still seem to require some sort of ramp.

Live.local's aerial photography shows the area of the sidings quite
well:

http://maps.live.com

It does indeed.

tom

--
It's amazing how often conversations with you have the imaginary sound
of human bones being crushed to rubble in the background. -- itchyfidget,
to snowking

Tom Anderson wrote:


So, hang on, what altitude was the yard at? The railway's on a viaduct;
either the sidings were at ground level and there was a big ramp, or they
were at the level of the railway, on a huge platform.

They were at the same level at the Holloway Road end, and slightly
above main-line level as the tracks began to descend Holloway Bank.


Ah, no - by the time it gets to Caledonian Road, the line's at, indeed
below, ground level, isn't it? Was the entrance to the sidings at the up
or down end? The description given earlier in this thread made me think it
was at the up end, which would still seem to require some sort of ramp.

They were single-ended sidings, with all access at the north end. As I
mentioned earlier, trains leaving the sidings would run along the
westernmost track, behind Holloway North Down signalbox, down to
Finsbury Park No2, then run round before proceeding under the ECML,
past the entrance to Ashburton Grove yard (where trains were loaded
with household refuse), then up an incline to rejoin the ECML just
north of Holloway Road.

Trains and locomotives going to the sidings had to set back, with the
movement controlled by a shunt signal mounted on top of the viaduct
wall, round about Dunford Road.

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006, John Rowland wrote:

The economics of closing 4 existing surface stations and building
underground ones have never entirely made sense to me, when they
could have built a pair of (larger) tunnels for GN trains and given
over two surface tracks, with stations, to the Piccadilly.

Perhaps because bigger tunnels would have cost rather a lot more,

More than 4 underground stations?

could not have been worked by steam trains, and would have required
some complicated portal shenanigans at King's Cross to bring the big
trains up to the station whilst the little trains dived down to go to
Russell Square.

That said, i wonder if it was also a cultural thing - the idea of
putting suburban railways in tubes was already popular, but nobody
had done it for a main line. Indeed, we still haven't - not until the
CTRL opens!

There were already numerous mainline steam railways in tubes.... or do you
think the Severn Tunnel was cut-and-cover and electrified? I think there are
two lots of tube tunnels on the mainline between Kings Cross and Caledonian
Road anyway.

On Mon, 18 Dec 2006, John Rowland wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006, John Rowland wrote:

The economics of closing 4 existing surface stations and building
underground ones have never entirely made sense to me, when they
could have built a pair of (larger) tunnels for GN trains and given
over two surface tracks, with stations, to the Piccadilly.

Perhaps because bigger tunnels would have cost rather a lot more,

More than

More than the Picc tunnels. I meant that the marginal cost of the wider
tunnels, plus the costs associated with the factors i mentioned in the
rest of that paragraph, might have come to more than the cost of ...

4 underground stations?

After all, what's an underground station but a section of bigger tunnel
with some nice tiling and a few bits of furniture?

could not have been worked by steam trains, and would have required
some complicated portal shenanigans at King's Cross to bring the big
trains up to the station whilst the little trains dived down to go to
Russell Square.

That said, i wonder if it was also a cultural thing - the idea of
putting suburban railways in tubes was already popular, but nobody
had done it for a main line. Indeed, we still haven't - not until the
CTRL opens!

There were already numerous mainline steam railways in tubes.... or do
you think the Severn Tunnel was cut-and-cover and electrified?

Oh, as far as i'm concerned, the west country was, and remains, entirely
fictional. Certainly didn't seem very convincing when i was last there.

I think there are two lots of tube tunnels on the mainline between Kings
Cross and Caledonian Road anyway.

Point taken. Forgive my ignorance.

Although out of interest - where? Tunnels yes, but i'd never realised they
were tubes. When was the GN built? Was there an on- or near-surface
alignment to begin with, or was it tubes from the start?

tom

--
Orange paint menace

John Rowland wrote:
Tom Anderson wrote:
On Sat, 16 Dec 2006, John Rowland wrote:

The economics of closing 4 existing surface stations and building
underground ones have never entirely made sense to me, when they
could have built a pair of (larger) tunnels for GN trains and given
over two surface tracks, with stations, to the Piccadilly.

Perhaps because bigger tunnels would have cost rather a lot more,

More than 4 underground stations?

The difficulty here is that your original assertion is wrong - the only
GN station duplicated by a tube station was Holloway and Caledonian
Road, and that didn't shut until 1915.

Gillespie Road (now Arsenal), Caledonian Road, and York Road didn't
have surface stations nearby.

Gillespie Road, by the way, seems to have been a remarkable bit of
luck. In order that it could be near some potential traffic, two
houses on Gillespie Road were demolished, and the station frontage
built into the terrace (a third house was subsequently demolished when
the station was modified in the 1930s). This put the station building
so far from the line of route that the shallowly sloping tunnel to the
platforms was provided. In 1913 Arsenal moved to their new Highbury
Stadium, right across the road. Ever since, the fortuitously
convenient access design at the tube station has proved invaluable on
match days, both throughout the life of Highbury and at the new
Emirates Stadium.


could not have been worked by steam trains, and would have required
some complicated portal shenanigans at King's Cross to bring the big
trains up to the station whilst the little trains dived down to go to
Russell Square.

That said, i wonder if it was also a cultural thing - the idea of
putting suburban railways in tubes was already popular, but nobody
had done it for a main line. Indeed, we still haven't - not until the
CTRL opens!

There were already numerous mainline steam railways in tubes.... or do you
think the Severn Tunnel was cut-and-cover and electrified? I think there are
two lots of tube tunnels on the mainline between Kings Cross and Caledonian
Road anyway.

I don't think that a twin-track, brick-lined tunnel quite fits the
generally accepted definition of 'tube'.

On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 wrote:

Tom Anderson wrote:

So, hang on, what altitude was the yard at? The railway's on a viaduct;
either the sidings were at ground level and there was a big ramp, or
they were at the level of the railway, on a huge platform.

They were at the same level at the Holloway Road end, and slightly above
main-line level as the tracks began to descend Holloway Bank.

Holloway What? Is that the gentle slope from Caledonian Road to Holloway
Road? Or from Holloway Road to Finsbury Park? I'm aware of the former
slope, but not the latter; since i cycle between the three of them every
day, i would be rather interested to learn if there's a downhill i hadn't
noticed ...

below, ground level, isn't it? Was the entrance to the sidings at the
up or down end? The description given earlier in this thread made me
think it was at the up end, which would still seem to require some sort
of ramp.

They were single-ended sidings, with all access at the north end. As I
mentioned earlier, trains leaving the sidings would run along the
westernmost track, behind Holloway North Down signalbox, down to
Finsbury Park No2, then run round before proceeding under the ECML,

Where did that happen, if i may ask?

past the entrance to Ashburton Grove yard (where trains were loaded with
household refuse),

And where there was still the local tip until Arsenal moved in ...

then up an incline to rejoin the ECML just north of Holloway Road.

Trains and locomotives going to the sidings had to set back, with the
movement controlled by a shunt signal mounted on top of the viaduct
wall, round about Dunford Road.

Where i lived! A shunt signal at the end of my road - imagine that! Okay,
maybe not so exciting in the grand scheme of things, but it's still
interesting to hear about local history - sort of adds depth to sitting
there watching GNER intercities roar past. And this may be the most
exciting thing ever to have happened on Dunford Road (except for our last
new year's eve party - a story for which the world is not yet prepared).

tom

--
Orange paint menace

Tom Anderson wrote:
On Mon, 18 Dec 2006 wrote:

They were at the same level at the Holloway Road end, and slightly above
main-line level as the tracks began to descend Holloway Bank.

Holloway What? Is that the gentle slope from Caledonian Road to Holloway
Road? Or from Holloway Road to Finsbury Park? I'm aware of the former
slope, but not the latter; since i cycle between the three of them every
day, i would be rather interested to learn if there's a downhill i hadn't
noticed ...

It's the climb (at about 1 in 200) from the north portal of Copenhagen
Tunnel, up towards Finsbury Park. Leaving the tunnel, going
northwards, one passed under the flyover that led to Goods and Mineral,
past the back of Caledonian Road Tube station (there used to be
allotments on the area of land at the back of the station, above the
retaining wall), under Caledonian Road, then past Holloway South Down
signalbox (built up against the brick retaining wall at Stock Orchard
Street - there was a door in the wall, with steps for access by
signalmen). Opposite was the site of Holloway Cattle Sidings, and
Holloway Up South box.

Then the buffer stop ends of Holloway Carriage Sidings, which ran
alongside, with the main line gradually rising to their height, before
passing over Holloway Road.


below, ground level, isn't it? Was the entrance to the sidings at the
up or down end? The description given earlier in this thread made me
think it was at the up end, which would still seem to require some sort
of ramp.

They were single-ended sidings, with all access at the north end. As I
mentioned earlier, trains leaving the sidings would run along the
westernmost track, behind Holloway North Down signalbox, down to
Finsbury Park No2, then run round before proceeding under the ECML,

Where did that happen, if i may ask?

Between what was Finsbury Park Diesel Depot (formerly Clarence [coal]
Yard) and the main ECML. The depot was behind Isledon Road, with an
entrance more or less opposite the Michael Sobell Sports Centre.
Parkside Crescent is built on there now. Up above, at main line height,
between the ECML and the low level lines at Finsbury Park No2, was
Coronation Shed, a wooden structure originally built to house the
'Coronation' rolling stock, but later used for the inner suburban DMUs.


past the entrance to Ashburton Grove yard (where trains were loaded with
household refuse),

And where there was still the local tip until Arsenal moved in ...

Yes. And the replacement facility is supposed to be on the site of the
old Holloway Cattle Sidings (see above).

then up an incline to rejoin the ECML just north of Holloway Road.

Trains and locomotives going to the sidings had to set back, with the
movement controlled by a shunt signal mounted on top of the viaduct
wall, round about Dunford Road.

Where i lived! A shunt signal at the end of my road - imagine that! Okay,
maybe not so exciting in the grand scheme of things, but it's still
interesting to hear about local history - sort of adds depth to sitting
there watching GNER intercities roar past. And this may be the most
exciting thing ever to have happened on Dunford Road (except for our last
new year's eve party - a story for which the world is not yet prepared).

Holloway North Down signalbox was between the main lines and the goods
lines, just before Dunford Road. It was a medium sized brick
structure, flat-roofed, with metal-framed windows all around. There
was a corresponding Holloway North Up box, on the other side of the
main line. The use of boxes signalling only either Up or Down lines
was a feature of the approach to Kings Cross, due to the volume of
traffic and number of lines.