On 28 Dec 2006 11:49:49 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:


Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(eastender) wrote:
What nonsense. Many other world cities have travelcard systems -
why wouldn't someone check out London's? And you don't need to

Why would you? I don't know any other city metro that penalises people
for buying a normal ticket.

This system penalises people who buy abnormal tickets. Oyster is
normal.

Boltar wrote:
Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(eastender) wrote:
What nonsense. Many other world cities have travelcard systems -
why wouldn't someone check out London's? And you don't need to

Why would you? I don't know any other city metro that penalises people
for buying a normal ticket. If you know otherwise then please tell us
where.

I can't immediately think of where it was, but I've recently* been
somewhere where it costs more to buy a tram/bus/etc ticket from the
driver than from a kiosk in advance. Admittedly it isn't as dramatic a
difference as the card/cash prices in London, but fare differentials do
exist.

Conversely, in Manila they charge a 2% processing fee for using the
smart card!

(*)so I'd guess Sofia, somewhere in Italy, Innsbruck or Berlin.

'read up' on them - you can just go to a ticket office or machine
and buy one in most cities I've been to.

How many cities have you been too? Can you speak every language in the
world? Try going to the eastern block and asking the babushka at the
ticket office about the fares in english and see what sort of response
you get.

In my experience, as long as you want a bog-standard single ticket,
you'll get a ticket. Often as not there is a fare table on display, so
you can spot a likely-looking product (and ignore the "pregnant war
veterans with dogs and three children travelling on the day after a
public holiday" discounts).

The trickier bit can be working out where zone boundaries are, and
trying to establish if a "Travelcard"-type product is valid 00:01-23:59,
"off peak", or for 24h after issue (or first use).

If you get really stuck, just look for someone under 30 who will
enthusiastically translate as an opportunity to practice their English.
Or, if you know any German, in some places you might have some success
if you find an older person and try speaking German (having first made
clear that you aren't German, it is purely an attempt to find a common
language, and they bombed your granny's house as well, &c &c)


Precisely. Just regard cash fares as a tax on the ignorant, as in almost
every city in the world.

Should be a tax you 2 should be paying then.

B2003



--
Arthur Figgis Surrey, UK

In article ,
lid (Arthur Figgis) wrote:

I can't immediately think of where it was, but I've recently* been
somewhere where it costs more to buy a tram/bus/etc ticket from the
driver than from a kiosk in advance. Admittedly it isn't as
dramatic a difference as the card/cash prices in London, but fare
differentials do exist.

It was the case in Strasbourg in 1985. I agree the differential is the
only real problem. £4 to £1.50 is rather taking the ****.

--
Colin Rosenstiel.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006, Boltar wrote:

Colin Rosenstiel wrote:
In article ,
(eastender) wrote:

What nonsense. Many other world cities have travelcard systems - why
wouldn't someone check out London's? And you don't need to

Why would you? I don't know any other city metro that penalises people
for buying a normal ticket.

In London, a paper ticket isn't a normal ticket. Oyster is.

tom

--
If it ain't broke, open it up and see what makes it so bloody special.

On 28 Dec 2006 11:49:49 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:



Why would you? I don't know any other city metro that penalises people
for buying a normal ticket. If you know otherwise then please tell us
where.

Amsterdam - a single fare paid on the tram costs more than if you buy
a 15 or 45 strip strippenkaart.

"Al Holmes" wrote in message
...
On 28 Dec 2006 11:49:49 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:



Why would you? I don't know any other city metro that penalises people
for buying a normal ticket. If you know otherwise then please tell us
where.

Amsterdam - a single fare paid on the tram costs more than if you buy
a 15 or 45 strip strippenkaart.

This is true of any town that has strip tickets.

But it can't be considered to be a 'normal' ticket because
it's not possible to make seven and a half journeys.

tim

Boltar wrote:

wrote:

Boltar wrote:
Its simply going to screw money out of tourists or visiting
businessmen who don't know about Oyster
B2003

Is there anything wrong with this in principle, given especially as the
former are unlikely to have paid the extortionate subsidy that those of
us living in London have to pay to finance public transport?

IMO yes. The fare should be the same no matter how you pay. I don't go
into a shop and have to pay double for a coffee just because I paid
with cash and not a smartcard so why should it apply to the tube and
buses? Also if the mayor wants to stiff tourists why not take it to its
logical conclusion and just charge them an entry fee at airports? As
for subsidies , all public transport is subsidised around the world by
the local population. If you use your argument you might as well say
anyone foreign can't even walk on the pavements here since they didn't
pay the tax to build or maintain them.

B2003

Well that is - the fare being the same however paid - a very alien
concept to public transport anyway, isn't it?

Is not the very essenceof a "season ticket" (which then became
Travelcards and are now, to all intents and purposes, Oyster cards) a
pre-payment with the consequent fare reductions that follow from the
service provider having our money up front? Or, do you seriously
suggest that season-ticket holders (for which read Oyster card holders)
should have to pay the exact same fare according to the exact number of
journeys made because that is precisely what the cash-fare-payer would
have to pay? In the same way that you take my example to its logical
but ludicrous extreme, so can yours.

And, with respect, your example about cards in shops is not entirely
accurate: there are many store cards which offer their customers
discounts of one sort or another. I once bought 2 suits in Burton and
the tailor advised me to apply for a Burton card there and then, which
I did, which entitled me to a 20% discount! I never used it since, but
was certainly not going to turn down a £200 discount just for filling
in a short form, and using their credit card instead of one I already
had or a cheque.

Your suggestion of charging tourists to use the pavement is slightly
ludicrous, but are you suggesting that tourists should be able to use
the N.H.S. or claim State benefits here? Or, should their stay include
termtime, should their children be entitled to a few weeks' free
schooling at the local comp.?

Moreover, as has been adequately dealt with in other contributions to
this thread, those wishing to use Oyster cards are well-catered for,
and there is widespread publicity.

They say there's no disciple like the converted - if you have read some
of my earlier contributions, you will realise that I was originally
very opposed to Oyster. I have now used it for 3 or 4 months and am
most decidedly a convert!

Marc.

On Fri, 28 Dec 2006, wrote:

Boltar wrote:

wrote:

Boltar wrote:

Its simply going to screw money out of tourists or visiting
businessmen who don't know about Oyster

Is there anything wrong with this in principle, given especially as
the former are unlikely to have paid the extortionate subsidy that
those of us living in London have to pay to finance public transport?

If you use your argument you might as well say anyone foreign can't
even walk on the pavements here since they didn't pay the tax to build
or maintain them.

Your suggestion of charging tourists to use the pavement is slightly
ludicrous, but are you suggesting that tourists should be able to use
the N.H.S. or claim State benefits here?

The NHS is probably a poor example, since tourists *do* get treatment
here, if they need it.

tom

--
Hier gaan over het tij, de wind, de maan en wij.

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:18:06 -0000, "tim....."
wrote:


"Al Holmes" wrote in message
.. .
On 28 Dec 2006 11:49:49 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:



Why would you? I don't know any other city metro that penalises people
for buying a normal ticket. If you know otherwise then please tell us
where.

Amsterdam - a single fare paid on the tram costs more than if you buy
a 15 or 45 strip strippenkaart.

This is true of any town that has strip tickets.

But it can't be considered to be a 'normal' ticket because
it's not possible to make seven and a half journeys.

tim

Of course it's a normal ticket - you have assumed that every journey
only uses two strips. Everyone I know who travels from the UK to
A'dam buys (or already possesses) a strippenkaart. Just like people
visiting to London will buy (or already possess) an Oyster over time.

Anyway, it's possible to make seven one-zone journeys with a 15 strip
ticket and that would still be cheaper than paying the conductor for
seven individual journeys.

"Al Holmes" wrote in message
...
On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:18:06 -0000, "tim....."
wrote:


"Al Holmes" wrote in message
. ..
On 28 Dec 2006 11:49:49 -0800, "Boltar"
wrote:



Why would you? I don't know any other city metro that penalises people
for buying a normal ticket. If you know otherwise then please tell us
where.

Amsterdam - a single fare paid on the tram costs more than if you buy
a 15 or 45 strip strippenkaart.

This is true of any town that has strip tickets.

But it can't be considered to be a 'normal' ticket because
it's not possible to make seven and a half journeys.

tim

Of course it's a normal ticket

But its not a normal single ride ticket.

- you have assumed that every journey
only uses two strips. Everyone I know who travels from the UK to
A'dam buys (or already possesses) a strippenkaart.

Rubbish.

Only somone expecting to make the requisite
number of journeys will buy the ticket (and not all
of them). For someone expecting to make less,
the ticket will be wasted.

I suspect most tourists will buy a 1, 2 or 3 day pass.

Just like people
visiting to London will buy (or already possess) an Oyster over time.

The cash on an Oyster card doesn't expire, strip cards usually
do (I've no idea about the dutch ones).

Anyway, it's possible to make seven one-zone journeys with a 15 strip
ticket and that would still be cheaper than paying the conductor for
seven individual journeys.

So what. The issue in question is whether the fare it
generates for the journey is the normal fare, not whether
it gives a discount (which I accept that it does).

tim