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Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
[crossposted to uk.transport.london - originally posted on uk.railway]
Harry G wrote: Sorry if this has already been raised before, but I noticed the following in Newsrail Express 330: "For the benefit of customers who have difficulty using London Underground services, or who prefer not to, Train Companies are negotiating with Transport for London (TfL) to introduce a cross-London Bus transfer facility between National Rail London termini. This bus transfer would only be issued, and used, in conjunction with tickets which include 'cross-London validity'. Ticketing and details of route validity on London Buses has still to be agreed, but in anticipation of this, a new product - Discount London Bus Pass - has already been created and appears in TIS and fares information systems. Please note however, that until otherwise advised, Discounted London Bus Pass tickets MUST NOT be issued under any circumstances. Subject to full agreement being reached with TfL, full details of this new facility, and date of introduction, will be advised in due course." I've taken the liberty of cross-posting this to utl as I'm sure it'll be of interest to people there. Despite the subject line it would appear that there is only one potential new ticketing product being considered rather than two, though exactly what form that ticket will take remains to be seen. Nonetheless I'll speculate anyway! The use of the "Discounted London Bus Pass" wording does suggest the ticket will be a quasi-bus pass, for use on more than one bus to transfer between termini, which makes perfect sense. If it does go ahead I wonder how well it's inter-termini validity will be enforced, or whether people will be able to get away with using it as if it's a normal bus pass. It appears that the train companies through ATOC are responding to passengers demand for such a ticketing product. I guess this can be seen in part as a response to the events of two summers ago, but regardless of any such terrorism fear factor there has always been plenty of people who just don't like the idea of using a subterranean railway (I guess as a result of claustrophobia), and others who find using the Underground an ordeal because their mobility is impaired or they have heavy/bulky luggage. Nonetheless the Underground remains the best way to transfer between many London termini, as buses will take longer for many such transfers, may be similarly busy to the Tube and might prove a similar struggle for those with cumbersome luggage. I predict more passengers will be missing their connection once this cross-London bus ticket gets introduced, perhaps helped along by some naive advice from a rustic ticket office far far away from the realities of the big smoke! |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Mizter T wrote:
[ allowing x-London Terminals transfer by bus] It appears that the train companies through ATOC are responding to passengers demand for such a ticketing product. I guess this can be seen in part as a response to the events of two summers ago, but regardless of any such terrorism fear factor there has always been plenty of people who just don't like the idea of using a subterranean railway (I guess as a result of claustrophobia), and others who find using the Underground an ordeal because their mobility is impaired or they have heavy/bulky luggage. Agreed on the claustrophobia, mobility and luggage. However, given the death toll relative to passenger density seen with the Tube, sub-surface and bus bombs two summers ago, anyone aiming to minimise potential personal terrorism damage would be unwise to do so by taking a bus... -- John Band john at johnband dot org www.johnband.org |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Mizter T wrote: Nonetheless the Underground remains the best way to transfer between many London termini, as buses will take longer for many such transfers, may be similarly busy to the Tube and might prove a similar struggle for those with cumbersome luggage. I predict more passengers will be missing their connection once this cross-London bus ticket gets introduced, perhaps helped along by some naive advice from a rustic ticket office far far away from the realities of the big smoke! A few years ago there was a circulat bus route linking all the main London stations, using low-floor vehicles with loading ramps. It was indeed slow. The idea was to serve travellers who needed ro-ro loading for wheelchairs, prams, etc and so could not use the Underground at all, although the service was open to all users. I think (someone here may know better) that it disappeared for lack of customers. Perhaps few wheelchair users make cross-London journeys or maybe most doing so prefered a taxi transfer. Jon |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Jon wrote: A few years ago there was a circulat bus route linking all the main London stations, using low-floor vehicles with loading ramps. It was indeed slow. The idea was to serve travellers who needed ro-ro loading for wheelchairs, prams, etc and so could not use the Underground at all, although the service was open to all users. I think (someone here may know better) that it disappeared for lack of customers. Perhaps few wheelchair users make cross-London journeys or maybe most doing so prefered a taxi transfer. That's correct: in the 1990s there was a pair of circular services, Stationlink SL1/2 (clockwise/anti), although there had been something prior to that as well which failed (and ISTR a night-time service in the early 1980s). These were pretty infrequent and because they served virtually all stations could be terribly slow - it might take a couple of hours from arriving at one terminal before you reached your cross-London terminal. I think they disappeared around 4-5 years ago. Route 205 is a legacy of the Stationlink service, and there was also a 705 which seems to have withdrawn. Apart from the slow journey times, taxi options and infrequency, the accessibility of all London buses to the groups mentioned above probably put the final nail in the coffin of dedicated Stationlink services or similar. |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
John B wrote:
Mizter T wrote: [ allowing x-London Terminals transfer by bus] It appears that the train companies through ATOC are responding to passengers demand for such a ticketing product. I guess this can be seen in part as a response to the events of two summers ago, but regardless of any such terrorism fear factor there has always been plenty of people who just don't like the idea of using a subterranean railway (I guess as a result of claustrophobia), and others who find using the Underground an ordeal because their mobility is impaired or they have heavy/bulky luggage. Agreed on the claustrophobia, mobility and luggage. However, given the death toll relative to passenger density seen with the Tube, sub-surface and bus bombs two summers ago, anyone aiming to minimise potential personal terrorism damage would be unwise to do so by taking a bus... This wasn't quite the direction I intended the thread to go in. Nonetheless a brief response to that. I'm not sure how accurate your thinking is, given that there were twice as many victims on the Piccadilly line train (which was a in a tube as opposed to being a sub-surface train), though I'm not particularly keen to get into making grisly and speculative calculations as to which form of transport is safest in the context of it having a bomb explode on board. A slightly wider way of looking at it is this - there are a good number of people who, as I said, have always been wary of Tube travel for a number of reasons that aren't terrorism related - be it claustrophobia, fear of crowds or fear of being in tunnels under the ground etc. Previously some of them may have just bitten their lip and got on the Tube, but the fear of terrorism is perhaps the final straw that means they'll now avoid using it. Buses are something they are more familiar with, and they don't bring with them claustrophobia etc so they seem like a safer option. You might say this is irrational - if so, I'd go back to the point I made above, i.e. I'm not sure there's really enough evidence to suggest one way or the other about which vehicle is 'preferable' for avoiding damage, and of course no-one in their right mind wants there to be any further evidence to study anyway. |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
In message .com
"Mizter T" wrote: [crossposted to uk.transport.london - originally posted on uk.railway] Harry G wrote: Sorry if this has already been raised before, but I noticed the following in Newsrail Express 330: "For the benefit of customers who have difficulty using London Underground services, or who prefer not to, Train Companies are negotiating with Transport for London (TfL) to introduce a cross-London Bus transfer facility between National Rail London termini. This bus transfer would only be issued, and used, in conjunction with tickets which include 'cross-London validity'. Wasn't there a Red Arrow service that did just this in the 1970s? -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
In message .com,
Harry G writes Jon wrote: A few years ago there was a circulat bus route linking all the main London stations, using low-floor vehicles with loading ramps. It was indeed slow. The idea was to serve travellers who needed ro-ro loading for wheelchairs, prams, etc and so could not use the Underground at all, although the service was open to all users. I think (someone here may know better) that it disappeared for lack of customers. Perhaps few wheelchair users make cross-London journeys or maybe most doing so prefered a taxi transfer. That's correct: in the 1990s there was a pair of circular services, Stationlink SL1/2 (clockwise/anti), although there had been something prior to that as well which failed (and ISTR a night-time service in the early 1980s). The night time Inter Station bus was much older than that; I think it dated back to the 1960s or even earlier. (Someone will be along to tell us all shortly.) These were pretty infrequent and because they served virtually all stations could be terribly slow - it might take a couple of hours from arriving at one terminal before you reached your cross-London terminal. I think they disappeared around 4-5 years ago. Route 205 is a legacy of the Stationlink service, and there was also a 705 which seems to have withdrawn. Yes, the 205 and 705 were direct replacements for the Stationlink buses. I think the actual change was as part of the package of bus improvements to accompany the introduction of the Congestion Charge. I never used the 705 but have caught the 205 a few times, not linking rail journeys but on the way to one, certainly. I remember thinking that this was an ideal time for PA to be employed (it wasn't). Apart from the slow journey times, taxi options and infrequency, the accessibility of all London buses to the groups mentioned above probably put the final nail in the coffin of dedicated Stationlink services or similar. Non-Londoners will often go to extreme lengths to avoid the Tube. In my experience, most prefer taxis, even where a simple bus transfer (or sometimes even a walk, depending on luggage, would suffice. -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Ian Jelf wrote:
The night time Inter Station bus was much older than that; I think it dated back to the 1960s or even earlier. (Someone will be along to tell us all shortly.) [Enter a someone] Evening all! I can date it as far back as 1949, and I suspect it goes back even further, perhaps to the creation of the London Passenger Transport Board in 1933. In 1949 it was the "London Termini Inter-Station Bus Service" and ran "Daily (Christmas Day Excepted)" for a fare of one shilling (5p in new money). But it was primarily an evening service, operating every half hour from about 7 p.m. to midnight, then with an extra service around 4 a.m. It operated from Kings Cross to Waterloo via Euston, Paddington and Victoria, and vice versa. By 1961 though it had shrunk to a few fitful workings around midnight, but was still advertised in the railway timetable. -- Joyce Whitchurch, Stalybridge, UK ================================= |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
On Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:27:06 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote: In message .com, Harry G writes That's correct: in the 1990s there was a pair of circular services, Stationlink SL1/2 (clockwise/anti), although there had been something prior to that as well which failed (and ISTR a night-time service in the early 1980s). The night time Inter Station bus was much older than that; I think it dated back to the 1960s or even earlier. (Someone will be along to tell us all shortly.) There was a pre-war Inter-Station bus service which used half-deck Leyland Cubs. It ran until 1950 using them. See http://www.countrybus.org.uk/C/Cub.html -- Terry Harper Website Coordinator, The Omnibus Society http://www.omnibussoc.org |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
In message .com,
Mizter T writes A slightly wider way of looking at it is this - there are a good number of people who, as I said, have always been wary of Tube travel for a number of reasons that aren't terrorism related - be it claustrophobia, fear of crowds or fear of being in tunnels under the ground etc. The main reason is almost certainly the difficulty experienced with those who find negotiating steps difficult. The bus network has been able to serve that cohort much more quickly than the tube network will be able to do. -- Paul Terry |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
"Harry G" wrote: That's correct: in the 1990s there was a pair of circular services, Stationlink SL1/2 (clockwise/anti), although there had been something prior to that as well which failed (and ISTR a night-time service in the early 1980s). These were pretty infrequent and because they served virtually all stations could be terribly slow - it might take a couple of hours from arriving at one terminal before you reached your cross-London terminal. I think they disappeared around 4-5 years ago. The need to create a robust timetable, over a relatively long route, at a low frequency, meant an awful lot of slack was built into the timings. On the 705 (the final incarnation of Stationlink), it was common to dwell at Waterloo *and* London Bridge for up to ten minutes. Thus, these services were largely shunned by 'ordinary Londoners'. They were also fairly poorly publicised. During the last year of the 705, I was working in Victoria and commuting into and out of Fenchurch Street. On a Tube strike day (total shutdown), when 'normal' buses were jam packed, fights breaking out etc, I was able to board the 705 at Victoria Station with no difficulty, and had the company of about four other people on the way to Fenchurch St via Waterloo, London Bridge etc. Route 205 is a legacy of the Stationlink service, and there was also a 705 which seems to have withdrawn. Apart from the slow journey times, taxi options and infrequency, the accessibility of all London buses to the groups mentioned above probably put the final nail in the coffin of dedicated Stationlink services or similar. The Jubilee Line extension also provided a Tube alternative on the Waterloo - London Bridge stretch. Chris |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Ian Jelf wrote in uk.transport.london on Thu, 11 Jan 2007 18:27:06
+0000 : (to utl only) Non-Londoners will often go to extreme lengths to avoid the Tube. In my experience, most prefer taxis, even where a simple bus transfer (or sometimes even a walk, depending on luggage, would suffice. IME more visitors to London appear to have a mortal fear of getting on a London bus. The main reasons I've been able to establish are a) perceived as being far too slow and b) a fear of getting irretrievably lost. But I've known people new to London not to trust either, in one case walking from Kings Cross to Knightsbridge and back... -- hike - a walking tour or outing, esp. of the self-conscious kind Chambers 20th Century Dictionary |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:28:58 -0000, Dave Hillam ]
wrote: IME more visitors to London appear to have a mortal fear of getting on a London bus. The main reasons I've been able to establish are a) perceived as being far too slow and b) a fear of getting irretrievably lost. But I've known people new to London not to trust either, in one case walking from Kings Cross to Knightsbridge and back... I'm suprised a stranger could *find their way* from Kings Cross to Knightsbridge and back! -- Fig |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Dave Hillam wrote:
IME more visitors to London appear to have a mortal fear of getting on a London bus. The main reasons I've been able to establish are a) perceived as being far too slow and b) a fear of getting irretrievably lost. Regarding point (b), the bus spider maps with an index do help considerably so long as there is a direct bus from where you are to where you want to go. -- Phil Richards London, UK Home Page: http://www.philrichards1.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Dave Hillam wrote: IME more visitors to London appear to have a mortal fear of getting on a London bus. The main reasons I've been able to establish are a) perceived as being far too slow and b) a fear of getting irretrievably lost. I'm a Londoner and have no problem using buses here - but if I'm in a strange city I'll take the metro or a tram by preference. Something psychlogical to do with the fact that metro or tram services can't deviate from their tracks and (usually!) come back exactly the same way they went, point (b) in Dave's post. |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
On Fri, 12 Jan 2007 09:28:58 +0000, Dave Hillam wrote:
IME more visitors to London appear to have a mortal fear of getting on a London bus. The main reasons I've been able to establish are a) perceived as being far too slow It's in the guidebooks, so that's no surprise. And route 15 really was slow. and b) a fear of getting irretrievably lost. What type of bus information is available to visitors? -- jhk |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Jarle H Knudsen wrote:
and b) a fear of getting irretrievably lost. What type of bus information is available to visitors? -- jhk I've seen this map on a lot of leaflets for tourists... http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/pdfdocs/cen_bus.pdf |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Harry G wrote:
Route 205 is a legacy of the Stationlink service, and there was also a 705 which seems to have withdrawn. Apart from the slow journey times, taxi options and infrequency, the accessibility of all London buses to the groups mentioned above probably put the final nail in the coffin of dedicated Stationlink services or similar. Route 205 is far more useful than Stationlink ever was, by virtue of the 10-minute frequency instead of hourly. It's a shame nothing lasted for the southern half, though. Neil |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Ian Jelf wrote:
Non-Londoners will often go to extreme lengths to avoid the Tube. In my experience, most prefer taxis, even where a simple bus transfer (or sometimes even a walk, depending on luggage, would suffice. Interesting - and I guess you probably know best by your job - but my experience is that people will use the Tube as it's relatively easy to understand - indeed, the geographical knowledge of London by a lot of people I know is largely based (inaccurately, of course) on the Tube map. Neil |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Dave Hillam wrote:
IME more visitors to London appear to have a mortal fear of getting on a London bus. The main reasons I've been able to establish are a) perceived as being far too slow and b) a fear of getting irretrievably lost. Mainly the latter, I'd think, and partly due to lousy passenger information. The GPS-based RTPI project will certainly help here if it is promoted enough. Neil |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
In message . com, Neil
Williams writes Ian Jelf wrote: Non-Londoners will often go to extreme lengths to avoid the Tube. In my experience, most prefer taxis, even where a simple bus transfer (or sometimes even a walk, depending on luggage, would suffice. Interesting - and I guess you probably know best by your job - but my experience is that people will use the Tube as it's relatively easy to understand - Oh, absolutely. The main reason that people have for not using the Tube in my experience is fear of actually being in enclosed spaces underground. (Interestingly, I've never had anyone cite fear of terrorism as a reason for avoiding it.) indeed, the geographical knowledge of London by a lot of people I know is largely based (inaccurately, of course) on the Tube map. Yes and when they *do* use it, they usually comment on how easy it is to understand for that reason. During one of the anti-war demonstrations last year, my coach was unable to get back to a pickup near Parliament Square and I took a group of about 15 back to the Tower Thistle hotel on the District Line [1]. They were an elderly group who wouldn't have dreamed of doing so "on their own". They actually loved it and to my amusement later told other people in the group that it was one of the highlights of their weekend in London! [1] I was going to say "Tube" but someone would have come along to.......well, you know! Neil -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 08:45:18AM -0800, Jon wrote:
A few years ago there was a circulat bus route linking all the main London stations, using low-floor vehicles with loading ramps. It was indeed slow. The idea was to serve travellers who needed ro-ro loading for wheelchairs, prams, etc and so could not use the Underground at all, although the service was open to all users. I think (someone here may know better) that it disappeared for lack of customers. Perhaps few wheelchair users make cross-London journeys or maybe most doing so prefered a taxi transfer. Of course, another issue is that few wheelchair users *exist*, and those who do exist might very well like to use the bus to get from one station to another if only they could get on the trains in the first place. Given that they can't get on the trains (either because of steps in and out of the train or steps in and out of the stations at either end of their journey) they have to start off using a car and it would really be a bit silly to join two car journeys together with a bus in the middle! It would be interesting to see just how much money TfL has spent on making buses etc wheelchair-friendly, and whether it would have just been cheaper to give them free taxi rides. And remember, most (all?) buses now have low floors, so a dedicated low-floor route wending its way around all the stations is no longer needed. -- David Cantrell | Nth greatest programmer in the world There is no one true indentation style, But if there were K&R would be Its Prophets. Peace be upon Their Holy Beards. |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Harry G wrote:
I'm a Londoner and have no problem using buses here - but if I'm in a strange city I'll take the metro or a tram by preference. Something psychlogical to do with the fact that metro or tram services can't deviate from their tracks and (usually!) come back exactly the same way they went, point (b) in Dave's post. Guess you've never been to New York! Just yesterday we had: Southbound 1 trains operated express from 137th Street to 96th Street and again express from 34th Street to 14th Street, where they terminated (running back north from the southbound express track). But 2 and 3 trains, which normally run express between 96th Street and Chambers Street, ran local instead. Shuttle buses ran between Chambers Street and South Ferry on the 1. The 5 ran local in both directions in Manhattan, terminating at Brooklyn Bridge instead of Bowling Green. No C service at all. Instead, the A ran local. Except northbound from Canal Street to 59th Street, where both the A and E ran express. (Except that E train stopped at 50th Street itself.) The southbound F train ran via the A line between West 4th Street and Jay Street. There was no G service south of Bedford-Nassau Avenues. Instead, there was shuttle bus service to Jay Street. There was no 6 service north of Parkchester. Instead, there was shuttle bus service to Pelham Bay Park. L trains ran in two segments, split at Broadway Junction. Also, the brand new PA/CIS system on the L (essentially equivalent to the next-train indicators that you've had for, oh, a century or so) was undergoing testing, with sometimes humorous results. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:56:04 +0000, Ian Jelf
wrote: In message . com, Neil Williams writes Interesting - and I guess you probably know best by your job - but my experience is that people will use the Tube as it's relatively easy to understand - Oh, absolutely. The main reason that people have for not using the Tube in my experience is fear of actually being in enclosed spaces underground. (Interestingly, I've never had anyone cite fear of terrorism as a reason for avoiding it.) indeed, the geographical knowledge of London by a lot of people I know is largely based (inaccurately, of course) on the Tube map. Yes and when they *do* use it, they usually comment on how easy it is to understand for that reason. During one of the anti-war demonstrations last year, my coach was unable to get back to a pickup near Parliament Square and I took a group of about 15 back to the Tower Thistle hotel on the District Line [1]. They were an elderly group who wouldn't have dreamed of doing so "on their own". They actually loved it and to my amusement later told other people in the group that it was one of the highlights of their weekend in London! Not all surprised to hear this. "You know what we did? - we climbed Mount Everest. Well not really but we did go for a ride on the Tube and survived." I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't that bad." Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-) -- Paul C |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Paul Corfield wrote:
I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't that bad." It's dangerous? That's news to me, and I do it four days a week. -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 10:13:30 -0500, David of Broadway
wrote: Harry G wrote: I'm a Londoner and have no problem using buses here - but if I'm in a strange city I'll take the metro or a tram by preference. Something psychlogical to do with the fact that metro or tram services can't deviate from their tracks and (usually!) come back exactly the same way they went, point (b) in Dave's post. Guess you've never been to New York! Just yesterday we had: Southbound 1 trains operated express from 137th Street to 96th Street and again express from 34th Street to 14th Street, where they terminated (running back north from the southbound express track). But 2 and 3 trains, which normally run express between 96th Street and Chambers Street, ran local instead. Shuttle buses ran between Chambers Street and South Ferry on the 1. [snip other examples] this temporary "chopping and changing" of routes and then the wholesale re-ordering of the Subway service patterns every so often is something that I struggle to comprehend. How on earth do New Yorkers cope with this scale of change - particularly to stopping patterns? Does it cause real problems or is it just one of those things that people now accept? -- Paul C Admits to working for London Underground! |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007, Paul Corfield wrote:
the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-) Ah yes. I understand that the Japanese have some novel ideas about the relationship between rolling stock and permanent way: http://urchin.earth.li/photopub/disp...&thumb=640x640 tom -- Yulava? Niob Yam! |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 08:45:18AM -0800, Jon wrote: A few years ago there was a circulat bus route linking all the main London stations, using low-floor vehicles with loading ramps. It was indeed slow. The idea was to serve travellers who needed ro-ro loading for wheelchairs, prams, etc and so could not use the Underground at all, although the service was open to all users. I think (someone here may know better) that it disappeared for lack of customers. Perhaps few wheelchair users make cross-London journeys or maybe most doing so prefered a taxi transfer. Of course, another issue is that few wheelchair users *exist*, and those who do exist might very well like to use the bus to get from one station to another if only they could get on the trains in the first place. Given that they can't get on the trains (either because of steps in and out of the train or steps in and out of the stations at either end of their journey) they have to start off using a car and it would really be a bit silly to join two car journeys together with a bus in the middle! It would be interesting to see just how much money TfL has spent on making buses etc wheelchair-friendly, and whether it would have just been cheaper to give them free taxi rides. And remember, most (all?) buses now have low floors, so a dedicated low-floor route wending its way around all the stations is no longer needed. Anecdotally I find it's not such a rare sight to see a wheelchair user on a bus at off-peak times, and even on teh finges of the peak. Additionally low floor buses are more accessible to those passengers who are less able bodied. |
Cross-London Bus Transfer & Discount London Bus Pass
Paul Corfield wrote:
this temporary "chopping and changing" of routes and then the wholesale re-ordering of the Subway service patterns every so often is something that I struggle to comprehend. Join the club! How on earth do New Yorkers cope with this scale of change - particularly to stopping patterns? Does it cause real problems or is it just one of those things that people now accept? When regular service is operating, stopping patterns stay relatively constant during daytime hours. There are a few exceptions on weekdays (mostly revolving around the use of three-track lines), and the N makes four local stops on weekends that it bypasses on weekdays. There are also some routes that only run on weekdays. Late nights are a different ballgame, with quite a few routes either not running or reduced to shuttle service and most express service curtailed. Regular riders generally figure things out. One problem is that on weekends, even regular riders tend to take different routes than they do on an everyday basis, so they can get quite confused. As can, of course, tourists. One big problem, in my experience, is that the American Museum of Natural History, a major tourist attraction, is adjacent to the 81st Street station on the B and C trains -- the B serves 6th Avenue and the C serves 8th Avenue. However, the B only runs on weekdays! So tourists bound for 6th Avenue who don't read the signs carefully (and realize that they have to take the C and transfer to the D) end up waiting and waiting and waiting for a train that won't come until Monday morning. For this reason among others, I think that the D should run local whenever the B isn't scheduled to run. The bottom of the subway map (http://www.mta.info/nyct/maps/subwaymap.pdf) has a detailed service guide that answers most questions for those who can be bothered to read it. It still leaves some questions open -- for instance, regarding the precise transition times for each service change (which, of course, vary from line to line and even from station to station along the line). But what I listed in my previous post wasn't the standard weekend service pattern. It was modifications to the standard pattern for this past weekend. You have similar changes in London, too (such as the one I encountered in August going to the airport), but since our tracks provide greater flexibility, our changes tend to be more confusing. And they indeed generate a /lot/ of confusion. Although conductors generally make announcements, they don't always know the best alternative routes, and the stations themselves are severely understaffed to handle all of the people with questions. Signage of service changes also tends to be very poor. I'm not sure what the alternative is, though. Even if the system were shut down at night, as in London, it's a lot easier (i.e., cheaper) to do some sorts of work over a 55-hour weekend shutdown period. And most of the work really needs to be done, although some items are arguable (for instance, replacing the South Ferry loop with a stub terminal that will have substantially lower turning capacity). -- David of Broadway New York, NY, USA |
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David of Broadway wrote: Harry G wrote: I'm a Londoner and have no problem using buses here - but if I'm in a strange city I'll take the metro or a tram by preference. Something psychlogical to do with the fact that metro or tram services can't deviate from their tracks and (usually!) come back exactly the same way they went, point (b) in Dave's post. Guess you've never been to New York! Nope! Just yesterday we had: Southbound 1 trains operated express from 137th Street to 96th Street and again express from 34th Street to 14th Street, where they terminated (running back north from the southbound express track). But 2 and 3 trains, which normally run express between 96th Street and Chambers Street, ran local instead. Shuttle buses ran between Chambers Street and South Ferry on the 1. I saw an interesting programme about the South Ferry 1 line terminal reconstruction on a cable channel here the other night - amazed that such a cramped and awkward operating layout has survived until now. The 5 ran local in both directions in Manhattan, terminating at Brooklyn Bridge instead of Bowling Green. [snip various other mind-boggling subway re-routings] From this I guess that the track layouts, connections and switches on the NY Subway are more like a tramway (with many connections not used for normal service) rather than the London Underground (with relative rare non-service connections between lines) - I can't imagine LU being able to operate anywhere near this sort of revised service. The most unusual diversion I can think of is when Bakerloo line (Stanmore branch) services were diverted over the Metropolitan line south of Finchley Road into the terminal platforms at Baker Street - this would have been around 1975/6, when the junctions for the future Jubilee line were being constructed. L trains ran in two segments, split at Broadway Junction. Also, the brand new PA/CIS system on the L (essentially equivalent to the next-train indicators that you've had for, oh, a century or so) was undergoing testing, with sometimes humorous results. Sounds something like the 06.66 to Hampton Court via Guildford with Restaurant/Buffet that was reported on the London Waterloo indicator board many years ago :-) Incidentally, take a look at the TfL tube ETA online site for interesting information - it's essentially giving signallers' destinations (e.g. Northumberland Park Staff, Victoria Sidings etc for the Victoria line) rather than what would be displayed to the public on the platform: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tube/travelinf...tationCode=EUS One that I just noticed for the Northern line, King's Cross southbound: "Euston (To Picc.) Bank Branch" (which I am sure is not in public service, and probably would just be described as 'Not in Service' on the platform!) |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
this temporary "chopping and changing" of routes and then the wholesale re-ordering of the Subway service patterns every so often is something that I struggle to comprehend. How on earth do New Yorkers cope with this scale of change - particularly to stopping patterns? Does it cause real problems or is it just one of those things that people now accept? From experience, it is annoying, but the benefits of having night service and being able to route around problems are well worth it. -- Michael Hoffman |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:56:04 +0000, Ian Jelf wrote: In message . com, Neil Williams writes Interesting - and I guess you probably know best by your job - but my experience is that people will use the Tube as it's relatively easy to understand - Oh, absolutely. The main reason that people have for not using the Tube in my experience is fear of actually being in enclosed spaces underground. (Interestingly, I've never had anyone cite fear of terrorism as a reason for avoiding it.) indeed, the geographical knowledge of London by a lot of people I know is largely based (inaccurately, of course) on the Tube map. Yes and when they *do* use it, they usually comment on how easy it is to understand for that reason. During one of the anti-war demonstrations last year, my coach was unable to get back to a pickup near Parliament Square and I took a group of about 15 back to the Tower Thistle hotel on the District Line [1]. They were an elderly group who wouldn't have dreamed of doing so "on their own". They actually loved it and to my amusement later told other people in the group that it was one of the highlights of their weekend in London! Not all surprised to hear this. "You know what we did? - we climbed Mount Everest. Well not really but we did go for a ride on the Tube and survived." I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't that bad." Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-) Definitely (to doing it how the residents do). I had great fun in Paris going round by myself for two days - the world was my Mobilis... -- Dave Arquati www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
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David Cantrell wrote:
On Thu, Jan 11, 2007 at 08:45:18AM -0800, Jon wrote: A few years ago there was a circulat bus route linking all the main London stations, using low-floor vehicles with loading ramps. It was indeed slow. The idea was to serve travellers who needed ro-ro loading for wheelchairs, prams, etc and so could not use the Underground at all, although the service was open to all users. I think (someone here may know better) that it disappeared for lack of customers. Perhaps few wheelchair users make cross-London journeys or maybe most doing so prefered a taxi transfer. Of course, another issue is that few wheelchair users *exist*, and those who do exist might very well like to use the bus to get from one station to another if only they could get on the trains in the first place. Given that they can't get on the trains (either because of steps in and out of the train or steps in and out of the stations at either end of their journey) they have to start off using a car and it would really be a bit silly to join two car journeys together with a bus in the middle! It would be interesting to see just how much money TfL has spent on making buses etc wheelchair-friendly, and whether it would have just been cheaper to give them free taxi rides. And remember, most (all?) buses now have low floors, so a dedicated low-floor route wending its way around all the stations is no longer needed. I think the economics of accessible buses actually stack up quite well. There's no additional procurement cost beyond that of replacing aging vehicles, because new vehicles are low-floor as standard anyway. Meanwhile, provision of "free taxi rides" was essentially done via the Dial-a-Ride service, which is extremely expensive (per passenger-km) to run. Having the mainstream bus fleet accessible to wheelchair users will *save* TfL money with lower demand for Dial-a-Ride. Additionally, low-floor buses are much more attractive to customers with prams, pushchairs and heavy luggage, and so will attract more custom from those groups, further enhancing the business case. The economics of step-free access to the Underground are somewhat different because of the capital cost involved. Given that, step-free access is usually incorporated into rebuilds that would have happened anyway, and as with buses, new custom does not just come from wheelchair users but also from those with prams, pushchairs, luggage etc. -- Dave Arquati www.alwaystouchout.com - Transport projects in London |
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Paul Corfield wrote:
Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-) It is - but it feels very, very safe (as does the whole city for its size). Neil |
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On Mon, 15 Jan 2007 16:49:59 +0000, Paul Corfield wrote:
Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-) Perhaps LU could pick up a few tips on how to get that extra bit of capacity out of the system? ;-) http://www.flickr.com/photos/scott-5...n/set-1713171/ |
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In article , Paul Corfield
writes I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't that bad." I had something similar some years ago from a New Yorker friend: "What did you do yesterday evening?" I tell him "You rode ... on the subway ... for *FUN*?!?!" [I had a local enthusiast as a guide, but I'd got to NY for both evenings via local train in New Jersey and then PATH.] I think it adds to the experience to travel about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-) Very true. And then there's the Bucuresti trams. And, some years ago, the Leningrad trolleybuses. 4 kopeks flat fare, with an "honesty box" for payment. -- Clive D.W. Feather | Home: Tel: +44 20 8495 6138 (work) | Web: http://www.davros.org Fax: +44 870 051 9937 | Work: Please reply to the Reply-To address, which is: |
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In message , Paul Corfield
writes I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't that bad." We had exactly the same reaction when we were in New York. I've been twice and on neither occasion did I feel any more unsafe than I would have done on the Tube. In fact I felt safer than on some Birmingham buses at night! (Though the Birmingham Metro, with a conductor always present feels especially safe late at night.) Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel about how the residents do - Yes and I feel the same about that, however bizarre that might seem to you reading this here. In mitigation, I can tell you that I try very hard when showing people London (or anywhere else) to talk a lot about life there, experiences, background and so on and not just - say - history. But using a real transport system is a great way to see somewhere. My interest in trams has taken me to some very surprising bits of actually rather famous cities over the years! -- Ian Jelf, MITG Birmingham, UK Registered Blue Badge Tourist Guide for London and the Heart of England http://www.bluebadge.demon.co.uk |
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In message
Ian Jelf wrote: [snip] In mitigation, I can tell you that I try very hard when showing people London (or anywhere else) to talk a lot about life there, experiences, background and so on and not just - say - history. But using a real transport system is a great way to see somewhere. My interest in trams has taken me to some very surprising bits of actually rather famous cities over the years! My wife alwaus enjoys tacking a tram ride just to see where it goes. As you say you do see some surprising bits of cities you wouldn't normally visit. -- Graeme Wall This address is not read, substitute trains for rail. Transport Miscellany at http://www.greywall.demon.co.uk/rail/index.html |
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"Paul Corfield" wrote in message ... I've had almost the same reaction on telling people I went on the Subway in New York to Brooklyn. "You did what? Do you know how dangerous that is?" "Err, I am standing here and am still alive to tell the tale. It wasn't that bad." My fellow pax on the flight to Porto were genuinely concerned at my decision to travel into the centre by Metro. I suspect that when I get round to revisiting Berlin, there will be more concerned pax urging that I avoid the S-Bahn. Still I don't believe in "doing a city" by going round in an air conditioned tourist coach. I think it adds to the experience to travel about how the residents do - the Tokyo rail system is certainly an experience ;-) The Rough Guides concluded some time ago that the top of their 10 sights for Lisbon was to ride the 28 tram. The description started "Avoid guided tours". -- Tim "The manners of capitalism improve. The morals may not" - J K Galbraith |
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